Worstgen

Cinera

There are caveats around Croc's good showings at MF, but he had several good showings. I don't think you can dismiss all of them because of the caveats. They paint an impression and convey a narrative regarding Croc's position and standing in the world.

Cinera

I also think you misunderstood the Sakazuki scene. At least when I present it, I'm not presenting it as a combat feat, but as decent portrayal. Yes, Crocodile's feat didn't require exceptional combat strength.

Cinera

However, Oda chose Croc to be the one to stop Sakazuki (however momentarily) and Save Luffy. I don't think any sub high tier characters successfully stopped Sakazuki at Marineford. Ivankov and Jinbe attempted to, and both achieved less/comparable to Croc and were wrecked pretty badly.

Cinera

Croc didn't look any worse than they did at MF (you could argue he looked better). And both should be at least in the YC category.

Cinera

The Croc - Sakazuki argument is the Jozu - Doffy Parasite argument. Yes there's the caveat that Jozu did not know about Doffy's ability. However, Doffy still did humiliate Jozu (using him as a foot stool) and completely disregarded him (he was more interested in allying with Croc).

Cinera

This brings us to the next good portrayal argument for Croc. Doffy wanted to ally with him, they smack talked themselves and used completely ineffective attacks on the other. Croc looked pretty good juxtaposed with Doffy in that encounter.

Cinera

When you consider how Doffy utterly disregarded Moriah and treated him like literal trash, the conclusion that Croc received superior portrayal to Moriah is undeniable.

Cinera

I think Croc receiving superior portrayal to Moriah supports my claim that his combat ability was revised upwards.

Cinera

I guess the things I'm most curious about from you are:

* What do you think about Croc vs Moriah? Does this change your opinion on my claim of a retcon?
* What do you think about Croc's performance vs Jinbe and Ivankov?
* What do you think about Croc's encounter with Doffy?

Cinera

Zoro and Luffy getting punked by a character that should be 1 - 3 levels below them has made me more sceptical of portrayal based arguments that completely ignores contexts. A naive interpretation of the Zoro and Luffy vs Apoo scene (the kind used for Doffy vs Jozu and Croc vs Sakazuki) would conclude that Apoo was portrayed superior to them.

Finalbeta

Akainu has feats, Mihawk has not, this is a fair point, however as we know feats are not everything in the manga

Finalbeta

We can't truly deny Oda's titles just like we can't say Shanks is as strong as Akainu when plot indicates differently

Cinera

I reject Apoo being on the same level with Zoro let alone stronger than him or Luffy. So I consider such arguments less convincing now. That said, I did revise upwards my estimate of Apoo's combat ability (I'll consider him to be a low high tier for now (I wasn't willing to place him above high mid tier due to his inferior rank to the Tobi Roppo)).

silverfire

Which of these characters do you think MF crocodile could beat?
Jinbe
Cracker
Jozu
Queen
Sentient Kuma
Doffy