Worstgen
Cinera
As for Jozu vs Queen, only Jozu has been specifically hyped up for his strength (when he threw the iceberg), and he was complimented on his "power" by Crocodile.
TheAncientCenturion
There's no proof physical strength does anything to parasite though. Law's description of it clearly states it's related to manipulating the body's internal commands, sending messages along the nervous system. So Jozu being a hulking beast and not being able to break out of parasite doesn't contradict each other. Luffy only did it for specific reasons.
Cinera
The zoan argument is a strong point in Queen's favour, but I wouldn't give him the advantage yet. The bulk of his combat ability may come from his plague and mechanical weaponry (as befits his epithet) and not from his physical abilities.
TheAncientCenturion
So it's him still struggling to stop Hawkins' puppets force? Someone who is a low high tier and isn't known for his physical strength.
Cinera
Jozu is a pure physical brawler with no hax or trickiness. His entire offense comes from his physical strength, the durability of his diamond and his haki.
TheAncientCenturion
Well, Diamond Jozu is known for being Diamond... Still has a lot of physical strength Cinera, so that doesn't really matter for Queen the Plague.
Cinera
> Someone who is a low high tier and isn't known for his physical strength.
Are you saying Hawkins is a low high tier? The physical strength point isn't at all relevant. The puppet was created by Hawkins ability and has no reflection on its own physical strength.
Are you saying Hawkins is a low high tier? The physical strength point isn't at all relevant. The puppet was created by Hawkins ability and has no reflection on its own physical strength.
Cinera
I was saying that I think struggling with Hawkins puppet is a lower end feat than outmuscling Issho's gravity. Zoro deflected Oars punch with strength alone preskip, but not all his feats were of that calibre.
Cinera
I think if Queen the Plague had superior strength to Jozu, he would be significantly above Jozu. Jozu as WB's commander shouldn't be below Kaido's commander, let alone significantly below.
TheAncientCenturion
The puppet itself is a tool of the user and Hawkins himself has never been shown to be physically strong as a fighter. Never one to outmuscle his enemies. Pre SKip feats like Oars don't matter here, considering we're in a new weight class. It's very likely New World characters could compete or match Zoro's feat with ease.
TheAncientCenturion
And why's that? Jozu's diamond armor is immune to almost any High Tier attacks by itself. Add in Haki and you'd need a top tier or hax to get around it. Queen himself is more vulnerable, as we've seen, but likely physically more capable and has his viruses to play around with. It seems pretty even to me.
Cinera
@TheAncientCenturion I wasn't mentioning Oars as a feat that is relevant now. I was mentioning it as a demonstration that:
* Zoro has always been a physical monster compared to his peers.
* Zoro's physical strength feats aren't all of the same calibre (e.g. being stuck in a chimney and unable to get out).
* Zoro has always been a physical monster compared to his peers.
* Zoro's physical strength feats aren't all of the same calibre (e.g. being stuck in a chimney and unable to get out).
Cinera
The Oars feat is relevant because it shows that Zoro's strength feats vary. Zoro has numerous feats that are of a much lower calibre than the Oars feat.
TheAncientCenturion
So Zoro's strength is reliant on plot, then? That's what you're saying?
Cinera
As for Hawkins, I still don't think your point on Hawkins not being physically strong is credible? Hawkins straw doll is like Cracker's biscuit soldier. It's produced entirely (and solely) from his ability. Hawkins physical strength has no bearing on it. Cracker's soldiers can push back against a Kong Organ assault.
Cinera
> Zoro's strength is reliant on plot, then?
Yes, I think struggling against Hawkins doll is a low end feat for Zoro. All the Supernova Zoro faced so far have managed to significantly injure him (more damage than Issho gave with his casual gravity attack). I think Oda was trying to hype them up through Zoro, so I don't think that's the limit of his strength.
Yes, I think struggling against Hawkins doll is a low end feat for Zoro. All the Supernova Zoro faced so far have managed to significantly injure him (more damage than Issho gave with his casual gravity attack). I think Oda was trying to hype them up through Zoro, so I don't think that's the limit of his strength.
TheAncientCenturion
If Hawkins was displayed as being a strong, physical fighter—as in someone who could unleash great amounts of force in battle—we would've seen it. Hawkins uses his cards and puppets to attack, so obviously if any of them were known for their strength, that would go back to Hawkins and Oda would've displayed it.
Cinera
Hawkins never used the puppets preskip. He had a straw monster transformation, but his best feat was getting trashed by Borsalino.
His straw puppet was only displayed against Zoro. I don't think we've seen enough to say if his puppets are strong.
His straw puppet was only displayed against Zoro. I don't think we've seen enough to say if his puppets are strong.
Cinera
I mean I'm willing to grant it decent physical strength for stalling Zoro a bit, but using that to argue in Zoro's favour would be circular reasoning.
Well, at the end of the arc we'll see.