Worstgen
ZenZu
Almost no shot they would lose to Big Mom. We've seen Big Mom go all out, she has too many faults as a fighter, while the worst offense Ray and Gaban did were simply not getting focus. In the little bit that we see of Rayleigh, he was able to hold Kizaru without receiving so much as a scratch on him, Kizaru would literally run circles around Big Mom in the same situation, we saw how he was outclassing Luffy with FS.
ZenZu
Keep in mind Gaban has Future Sight, is extremely lethal, and has full knowledge of advanced conqueror's. Reality is guys like him can pick their spots to tank the homies attacks and then outclass Big Mom up close. Big Mom lacks stopping power and combat ability, this is a death sentence against other top tiers who don't have the stamina of the rookie pirates.
GalaxyLevelShanks
Hmm I feel this is a case of feats vs portrayal since I believe she's stronger than them in Oda's head but he just hoed her terribly. What diff do you think she pushes the stronger Yonkos like Kaido and Shanks to?
ZenZu
I don't believe Big Mom is stronger than them in Oda's mind, maybe as a monster sure, but this is the same case with Big Mom and any "normal" human including Shanks. He treats Ray with too much respect, not less than any Yonkou. Heck he still drew Rayleigh making a Yonkou shit his pants not too long ago. Oda made Big Mom the pure tank type, but that just isn't enough to get the job done against haki masters like Ray
ZenZu
Big Mom is canonically less challenging than pre G5 Luffy according to Kaidou. And this is backed by feats too, I don't want to downplay Luffy too much but we saw how Kizaru treated him shortly after. It's not just feats, there were plenty of moments of portrayal for Big Mom and statements too, which pretty much cement her below G4 Luffy.
ZenZu
btw W tag + avatar synchronization. The mello avatar blends well with the LinLin tag.
GalaxyLevelShanks
I agree with you completely that G4 Luffy has better feats but iirc that statement was a mistranslation. In the raw japanese, Kaido simply says "You can truly go toe to toe with me" with no mention of how long it's been.
ZenZu
No I think that was debunked before. Regardless we have these moments of portrayal for Big Mom: Luffy considering Katakuri the bigger threat and leaving Big Mom to the weaker strawhats. Luffy leaving Big Mom to Franky on the live floor while he handles who he perceives to be the bigger threat in Kaidou. Big Mom is a top tier, but Oda has done enough to show Luffy isn't ever truly worried about her.
ZenZu
I can't in a million years imagine Luffy leaving Rayleigh for Nami and Brook to fight while he takes on Katakuri. Or he tells Franky to take on Rayleigh or Gaban with a smile on his face. This is intentional because she is not that skilled. So when you say she has superior portrayal, I don't even agree there. She has lows they will never reach, and her highs aren't even there either, her final attack was misery.
ZenZu
Luffy was twerking and willing to team up with Zoro to take on Gaban when he had G5 activated. First time we've seen him even do that. So yea I just can't agree that Oda portrays them lower than BM, when this is the treatment they get while BM is left for Franky, Nami, Brook and Jimbei. Not once but on multiple occasions.
GalaxyLevelShanks
Tbf you're right. Personally, I have been very split on this matter too but your point on their treatment is spot on. I just gave BM the benefit of doubt because I didn't expect a Yonko to be weaker than some underlings but it's the PK's underlings we're talking about here. Might start favoring Ray/Gaban in debates now
ZenZu
It's just recency bias based on GV, the Yonkou got the most focus this flashback. But even then, what did this focus even get Big Mom? Go through her showings one by one and you'll notice Oda only used her to be the runt of the litter again. Big Mom has got to be the most fortunate character in the fandom, she can literally shit the bed 24/7 while other character's minor faults are scrutinized.
ZenZu
If the chapter dropped today where a 100 year old Rayleigh made a Yonkou shit his pants and retreat, we wouldn't even be having this convo rn. BB is judging Ray based off his prime ability and he wasn't willing to test him one bit. He has never been portrayed less than a Yonkou in combat.
ZenZu
Also if you ever start doubting PK's underlings, just remember what Oden did to Kaidou. Roger is special in particular because of his ability to have fighters of this class follow him. You don't have to worry about Oda's mind when it comes to these guys, he told us he doesn't give af in the case of special underlings. He will embarrass Yonkou if he needs. And this is Kaidou we're speaking of, not even BM.
GalaxyLevelShanks
Speaking of Kaido... do you think prime Ray can beat Shanks and Kaido too?
ZenZu
Prime Ray absolutely can do it in theory since Oden could, he isn't any less than Oden. Oda isn't making the RHM of the PK, Luffy's mentor, weaker than Oden at the very least. Shanks and Ray are a wash, it's basically the same ability set. I just treat them like they're interchangeable. Even the way Oda uses Shanks and Old Ray in the story is almost identical. s