Worstgen

I’m not sure what you mean, but a story should follow its own themes and be consistent. Luffy going from ‘people die’ to ‘even if you die, don’t die’ is just plain old character regression. That’s what ruins a series.

Jailer

To be fair he said people die but yet no one died in Alabasta. Igaram and Pell are alive and well in the end.

Den_Den_Mushi

It’s not about whether the characters actually died. It’s about Luffy’s attitude. Being pragmatic and logical vs regressing into an emotional 12 year old.

Jailer

I understand tho the complains about these ridiculous scenarios where a character should be dead yet they survive it (Kinemon).

I wouldn't even mind no one even gets killed, at least don't write these bs scenarios for fake tension, you do that few times but repeating that over and over gets annoying.

Jailer

@Den_Den_Mushi his words hold no weight then, if no one dies what's the point of writing that dialogue, he was trying to prove a point to Vivi but it turned out she was right and saved everyone.

Cinera

@Den_Den_Mushi: I think that's in part because for long running series (especially shounen), the audience outgrows the series. They mature as people and readers and get more sophisticated tastes.

Cinera

Perhaps the series do decline over time, but I suspect a lot of the perceived drop in quality is simply a shift in tastes among the older readers.

Cinera

When did you start reading shounen?

Den_Den_Mushi

@Jailer thats not how this shit works. If I tell you not to drink and drive because you could have an accident and die, but you do it anyway and survive, I’m still right in what I said. Same thing with Luffy telling her not to be a naive little brat.

Den_Den_Mushi

@Cinera nah I don’t always mean the Kinemon stuff, like that shit is straight bad. I mean shit like Naruto being the reincarnation of a demigod when the series’ message was always ‘screw destiny’ and emphasised that he never was a natural born genius like Sasuke.

Den_Den_Mushi

There’s something to be said about the audience being more sophisticated and then there’s just the series derailing and shitting all over itself and its own themes. That’s just objectively bad, whether you’re 13 years old or 33.

Den_Den_Mushi

Also I started reading shonen weekly around 2009.

Cinera

I do agree that Naruto did retcon its original concept and themes.

Cinera

But your tastes have probably also matured over the 13 year period you've been reading shounen manga.

Cinera

Would a 13 year old find the shift in broader themes of the story as jarring as the older readers do? I'm not so sure.

Den_Den_Mushi

But haven’t the broader themes of the story tried to become more sophisticated? This is another point where the series ends up eating itself. Naruto introduced the concept of the cycle of hatred, but could not resolve it in any proper way. The authors are trying, they just… suck at it. Lol.

Den_Den_Mushi

One Piece went from a fun adventure story to this weird narrative where Luffy is going to end slavery and save the world. Arguably that is Oda trying to mature the story, it’s just that his chops as a writer simply can’t hack it.

Cinera

Actually, I don't think that is maturing the story. Making Luffy the literal saviour of the world isn't a maturity of the themes of the story.

Cinera

It makes for a very simplistic story with a cartoonishly evil Celestial Dragons/World Government and a prophesied saviour that is coming to deliver the world from them.

Cinera

It removes the sophistication of ambiguous morals. There's a clear evil and clear good.