Worstgen

Cinera

@Jew D. Boy a major part of my apparent civility is because I'm really elitist. I choose who I engage in debates with, and there are people I don't bother engaging with because I judge them to not be worth my time. If you only engage with people you respect, it's not hard to be civil.

Natalija

@Cinera It's ridiculous though, and people drop it to annoy their opposing side

Natalija

@Cinera I choose who I engage in debates with, and there are people I don't bother engaging with because I judge them to not be worth my time. If you only engage with people you respect, it's not hard to be civil.
Truer words could not be spoken!

Jew D. Boy

@Cinera I take your willingness to engage me in conversation as a compliment, then! I’ve had a tremendously enjoyable time on this site for the same reason, I really only respond to folks who can actually talk about their opinions without insulting others. Pretty good way to operate in real life, too 😉

Natalija

@Finalbeta It's true, he's very civil, I like him too

Cinera

> It's ridiculous though, and people drop it to annoy their opposing side

I think some people genuinely perform mental gymnastics. A certain poster has downgraded King from being on the same level as Katakuri to being on the same level as Smoothie to being on the same level (specifically weaker than) Cracker without King really doing much in the intervening time frame.

Cinera

That poster was originally insistent that Zoro's final fight in Wano would be a YC 3 character (they claimed Kyoshiro before the Denjiro reveal). When you put the two together, it does look like desperate mental gymnastics to deny post Wano Zoro being stronger than a particular level they've marked out.

Natalija

@Cinera The term is used to insult the person's thinking though. I'm not saying it's not true, but why say that instead of simply stating your point?

Cinera

@Natalija it's usually an accusation of intellectual dishonesty and not intellectual inferiority. Accusing someone of using mental gymnastics isn't saying they're stupid, you're saying that they're resorting to contrived and implausible reasoning to defend their point.

Cinera

It also doesn't have to be an insult. It can also be used to caution against poor reasoning. "That argument you just made involves mental gymnastics" ~ "You were resorting to contrived, implausible reasoning in the argument you just made".

Cinera

> Cinera is an easy going user in my opinion, he never speaks ill of people :D and is pretty nice despite sharing different opinions to most users sometimes
> @Finalbeta It's true, he's very civil, I like him too

@Finalbeta, @Natalija thanks for the vote of confidence guys. 😊

Natalija

But saying someone is "resorting to contrived and implausible reasoning to defend their point" is flat out calling them incapable of proving their point logically and therefore being intellectually inferior. It's the direct effect of such a statement. @Cinera

Natalija

Eeeeek, you deserve it for being nice! I'll even let you troll me about Shanks

Cinera

@Natalija it is a fact that people sometimes make terrible arguments. Saying someone is making a terrible argument shouldn't be read as an insult, an accusation of intellectual inferiority or a claim of intellectual superiority.

Cinera

It's simply a fact that they indeed made a terrible argument.

Cinera

Being unable to call folks out for making terrible arguments helps no one. Sure it may make the place more friendly and welcoming, but it severely undercuts the quality of discourse.

Cinera

If terrible arguments are left unchallenged to prevent apperances of impropriety, hostility, or incivility, essentially to prevent hurt feelings, then we're putting the cart before the horse IMO.

Cinera

The ability to call out terrible arguments is important for sane epistemic standards. While yes I'm here to have a good time, I don't want to engage in vapid debates and discussions.

Cinera

The purpose of debate is to change minds. Help the participants (and spectators) form more accurate beliefs on a the topic of contention. Being able to point out terrible arguments is an important part of that.

Cinera

The way I see it, attacking someone's person is bad. Attacking someone's argument is permitted and good.