Versus Battle Alive Hashirama vs Edo Hashirama
- Thread starter Bogard
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With these restrictions, virtually equal. Edo Hashirama was said to be unable to access his full power, which is likely Shinsuusenju considering he never used it during the war. Take that away from Living Hashirama and I don't see much difference between them. Living Hashirama has more potential, I suppose.
Edo easily
Why? Edo Regeneration is not an issue. He can self-heal and self-regenerate anyway and since as an edo he has infinite Chakra in terms of amount, while he wouldn't be able to recover limbs, it certainly mitigates the damage and he can do this pretty much forever, whereas living Hashirama can't abuse this
Plus edo can use Shinsuusenju...
Madara did say something along those lines. I'm pretty sure it specifically pertained to Tobirama though - not sure
Why? Edo Regeneration is not an issue. He can self-heal and self-regenerate anyway and since as an edo he has infinite Chakra in terms of amount, while he wouldn't be able to recover limbs, it certainly mitigates the damage and he can do this pretty much forever, whereas living Hashirama can't abuse this
Plus edo can use Shinsuusenju...
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Madara did say something along those lines. I'm pretty sure it specifically pertained to Tobirama though - not sure
This is a misconception. It was referring to Orochimaru's edo tensei in general. All his edos were revived a bit weaker than alive due to his edo tensei version being a little less perfect than Kabuto's. He upgraded it considerably since part1, but it was still not as good as Kabuto's edo tensei
Orochimaru's edo tensei
> Edo Tensei skill jutsu upgraded since last time(part1 when they were revived), close to their full power
Kabuto's edo tensei
> Kabuto's edo tensei skill surpassing the predecessors
> Madara revived even stronger than alive due to Senju modifications(except he couldn't summon Gedo Mazo or use Limbo due to having fake rinnegans)
But despite Kabuto's edo tensei skill being stronger, Edo Hashirama vs Edo Madara still had the same level of taijutsu like when they were alive
Edo Madara's full power was Perfect Susanoo and he could still use it, with Hashirama able to use his second strongest wood technique like in Valley of the End
The only thing Edo Hashirama couldn't use is Shinsuusenju, which is his ultimate technique, which i believe is the reason why it was brought up they were close to their full power. The edos were essentially similar to full power, except they couldn't use their ultimate technique imo
But it's the reason i restricted it to see other people's opinions, so imo with Shinsuusenju restricted for Alive Hashirama, and Edo Regeneration restricted for Edo Hashirama, they are equals in stats, except i see Edo Hashirama outlasting due to the edo tensei's stamina refilling after a certain time
Orochimaru's edo tensei
> Edo Tensei skill jutsu upgraded since last time(part1 when they were revived), close to their full power
Kabuto's edo tensei
> Kabuto's edo tensei skill surpassing the predecessors
But despite Kabuto's edo tensei skill being stronger, Edo Hashirama vs Edo Madara still had the same level of taijutsu like when they were alive
Edo Madara's full power was Perfect Susanoo and he could still use it, with Hashirama able to use his second strongest wood technique like in Valley of the End
The only thing Edo Hashirama couldn't use is Shinsuusenju, which is his ultimate technique, which i believe is the reason why it was brought up they were close to their full power. The edos were essentially similar to full power, except they couldn't use their ultimate technique imo
But it's the reason i restricted it to see other people's opinions, so imo with Shinsuusenju restricted for Alive Hashirama, and Edo Regeneration restricted for Edo Hashirama, they are equals in stats, except i see Edo Hashirama outlasting due to the edo tensei's stamina refilling after a certain time
Even Madara couldn't use his full strength, while being Edo Tensei, despite being upgraded, he then started regaining his past strength once he was revived:
So even Madara wasn't revived at full power. He was simply revived like Hashi & Tobi at non-full power but with a modified body.
As @WillOfMyD pointed out Tobirama noted himself that they were revived close to full power, but not full power.
This was then highlighted again by Madara, for whom them not being able to be at their full power made a huge difference:
Alive Hashirama is superior to Edo Hashirama, even if Shinsuusenju is restricted.
Alive Madara > Edo Madara (in terms of fighting specifically, rather than overall power)
Alive Hashirama > Edo Hashirama
Alive Tobirama > Edo Tobirama
As @WillOfMyD pointed out Tobirama noted himself that they were revived close to full power, but not full power.
This was then highlighted again by Madara, for whom them not being able to be at their full power made a huge difference:
Alive Hashirama is superior to Edo Hashirama, even if Shinsuusenju is restricted.
Alive Madara > Edo Madara (in terms of fighting specifically, rather than overall power)
Alive Hashirama > Edo Hashirama
Alive Tobirama > Edo Tobirama
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Even Madara couldn't use his full strength, while being Edo Tensei, despite being upgraded, he then started regaining his past strength once he was revived:
So even Madara wasn't revived at full power. He was simply revived like Hashi & Tobi at non-full power but with a modified body.
As @WillOfMyD pointed out Tobirama noted himself that they were revived close to full power, but not full power.
This was then highlighted again by Madara, for whom them not being able to be at their full power made a huge difference:
Alive Hashirama is superior to Edo Hashirama, even if Shinsuusenju is restricted.
Alive Madara > Edo Madara (in terms of fighting specifically, rather than overall power)
Alive Hashirama > Edo Hashirama
Alive Tobirama > Edo Tobirama
As @WillOfMyD pointed out Tobirama noted himself that they were revived close to full power, but not full power.
This was then highlighted again by Madara, for whom them not being able to be at their full power made a huge difference:
Alive Hashirama is superior to Edo Hashirama, even if Shinsuusenju is restricted.
Alive Madara > Edo Madara (in terms of fighting specifically, rather than overall power)
Alive Hashirama > Edo Hashirama
Alive Tobirama > Edo Tobirama
- Kabuto surpassing Orochimaru in Edo Tensei
- Kabuto saying Edo Madara was revived stronger than he was alive(except he had fake rinnegan not allowing him to summon gedo mazo and use limbo)
- Edo Madara saying Perfect Susanoo is his full power, and we know for a fact that Perfect Susanoo was EMS Madara's full power
It's also not like he displayed better feats outside of Limbo considering EMS Sasuke could outmaneuver and tag him in close quarter when an enhanced EMS Sasuke with cursed mark from Juugo alongside BSM Naruto were getting outblitzed by Juubito. He was also getting destroyed by the Bijuus until he could use limbo
As mentioned above, Tobirama was referring to Orochimaru's edo tensei skill
The fact you've upped the precision of edo tensei since last time
This basically transfers to
- Part1 Orochimaru's edo tensei skill was lower compared to war arc Orochimaru's edo tensei skill
- War arc Orochimaru's edo tensei skill was better, upgraded in precision, but not enough to be at full power
So it's all Orochimaru's edos(Hiruzen, Base Minato, Hashirama and Tobirama) who were brought back weaker, but it's not like they were immensely weaker. They were close to their full power
It's not a coincidence the only move Hashirama didn't display as an edo compared to his alive self was Shinsuusenju.
It's likely what Madara was referring at when saying they weren't at full power, with in Hashirama's case being the fact he couldn't use Shinsuusenju, the ability that was the thing placing Hashirama above him, with me speculating then that the edos revived by Orochimaru were probably not able to use their ultimate technique, in Tobirama's case, maybe speed related considering the discussion was resolving around his speed
Hashirama's statement contradicts everything mentioned before though
- Kabuto surpassing Orochimaru in Edo Tensei
- Kabuto saying Edo Madara was revived stronger than he was alive(except he had fake rinnegan not allowing him to summon gedo mazo and use limbo)
- Edo Madara saying Perfect Susanoo is his full power, and we know for a fact that Perfect Susanoo was EMS Madara's full power
It's also not like he displayed better feats outside of Limbo considering EMS Sasuke could outmaneuver and tag him in close quarter when an enhanced EMS Sasuke with cursed mark from Juugo alongside BSM Naruto were getting outblitzed by Juubito. He was also getting destroyed by the Bijuus until he could use limbo
As mentioned above, Tobirama was referring to Orochimaru's edo tensei skill
The fact you've upped the precision of edo tensei since last time
This basically transfers to
- Part1 Orochimaru's edo tensei skill was lower compared to war arc Orochimaru's edo tensei skill
- War arc Orochimaru's edo tensei skill was better, upgraded in precision, but not enough to be at full power
So it's all Orochimaru's edos(Hiruzen, Base Minato, Hashirama and Tobirama) who were brought back weaker, but it's not like they were immensely weaker. They were close to their full power
It's not a coincidence the only move Hashirama didn't display as an edo compared to his alive self was Shinsuusenju.
It's likely what Madara was referring at when saying they weren't at full power, with in Hashirama's case being the fact he couldn't use Shinsuusenju, the ability that was the thing placing Hashirama above him, with me speculating then that the edos revived by Orochimaru were probably not able to use their ultimate technique, in Tobirama's case, maybe speed related considering the discussion was resolving around his speed
- Kabuto surpassing Orochimaru in Edo Tensei
- Kabuto saying Edo Madara was revived stronger than he was alive(except he had fake rinnegan not allowing him to summon gedo mazo and use limbo)
- Edo Madara saying Perfect Susanoo is his full power, and we know for a fact that Perfect Susanoo was EMS Madara's full power
It's also not like he displayed better feats outside of Limbo considering EMS Sasuke could outmaneuver and tag him in close quarter when an enhanced EMS Sasuke with cursed mark from Juugo alongside BSM Naruto were getting outblitzed by Juubito. He was also getting destroyed by the Bijuus until he could use limbo
As mentioned above, Tobirama was referring to Orochimaru's edo tensei skill
The fact you've upped the precision of edo tensei since last time
This basically transfers to
- Part1 Orochimaru's edo tensei skill was lower compared to war arc Orochimaru's edo tensei skill
- War arc Orochimaru's edo tensei skill was better, upgraded in precision, but not enough to be at full power
So it's all Orochimaru's edos(Hiruzen, Base Minato, Hashirama and Tobirama) who were brought back weaker, but it's not like they were immensely weaker. They were close to their full power
It's not a coincidence the only move Hashirama didn't display as an edo compared to his alive self was Shinsuusenju.
It's likely what Madara was referring at when saying they weren't at full power, with in Hashirama's case being the fact he couldn't use Shinsuusenju, the ability that was the thing placing Hashirama above him, with me speculating then that the edos revived by Orochimaru were probably not able to use their ultimate technique, in Tobirama's case, maybe speed related considering the discussion was resolving around his speed
- He was revived stronger in the sense that his body was superior now, due to the modifications, and he has more power. But he as a fighter was limited in unleashing all of his power, but he was still able to use his key abilities like PS. Which is what I think Hashirama was referring to, that he was starting to fight like his past self, when he used that smoke escape technique. Which is also then backed by Madara getting all hyped up about him now having a living body, so he could enjoy the battlefield properly now.
- He was only actually touched by the Bijuus, because he was being wreckless due to Hashirama's healing. Which is also him not fighting like how he would've in his prime back when he was alive with refinement and skill.
It's hard to specifically pinpoint what Hashirama was referring to, but I do believe we have to take that statement into consideration especially because it's coming from Hashirama after having fought Madara again in their Edo Tensei forms. While the likes of Muu (Kabuto) and such who commented on Madara being revived at more than full power, don't really know Madara's full power since Hashirama is the only one who ever faced him at his full power.
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So for Tobirama's panel, our interpretation for that panel seems to be a bit different.
You're saying the focus of the statement for Tobirama was Orochimaru's Edo skills. I don't believe that's correct. In fact what Tobirama's focus there wasn't that Orochimaru now had better skill of the Edo Tensei, but rather that because it's so much better now , he ended up summoning them to near full power and because they're near full power they can't be restrained. Since restraining them requires strong power. It was enough to bind Tobirama, but not Hashirama who's power was simply too much. So the focus was on them having a lot of power
The statement also doesn't carry over to Hiruzen & Minato, because neither of the two had a single panel dedicated in the entire war arc to point out that they weren't at their full power.
Hiruzen being restrained while Tobirama was casually walking.
And Hiruzen's raw power > Minato's raw power, as the guy can also crack up buildings from just raising his chakra like the brothers (happened in Orochimaru fight)
The entire chapter was also dedicated to showing off Hashirama & Tobirama's natural power. With starting off with Tobirama just lifting one of his fingers, and shaking the entire room:
But then Hashirama flexing a lot more to cool Tobirama down, to a point it cracked up the entire room.
After that Tobirama then gets highlighted again, with cracking up a whole wall with just raising his chakra.
So I don't believe not being at full power was meant for Minato & Hiruzen, but specifically the brothers. Especially when you have the likes of Madara telling Tobirama them not being at full power is what gave him the edge. Meaning had Tobirama been at full power he would've been able to do something against Madara.
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As for what Madara was referring to, I think it's overall power not just 1 specific technique. Because if Hashirama isn't at full power, all the techniques he will use be weaker than they would be if he were at full power.
This is shown in the difference between Nativity of a World of Trees done by P1. Hashirama & Edo Madara.
And for Tobirama a similar concept would imply. Tobirama as an Edo Tensei was destroyed by Madara, wouldn't be the case if it was just speed related. However, Madara credited that to him not being at full power, were he at full power he might've been able to do something about Madara (same for his brother). It's def. more than just speed, but ofc his speed would naturally be effected if he's not at full power.
Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara are the only ones who've had comments made on them not being at full power, the comments coming from people who know their full power (they themselves). I think Kishimoto was really trying to drive it in the brothers & madara were monstrous compared to the other Shinobi.
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I don't really believe it does for me, here's how I see it from my end:
- He was revived stronger in the sense that his body was superior now, due to the modifications, and he has more power. But he as a fighter was limited in unleashing all of his power, but he was still able to use his key abilities like PS. Which is what I think Hashirama was referring to, that he was starting to fight like his past self, when he used that smoke escape technique. Which is also then backed by Madara getting all hyped up about him now having a living body, so he could enjoy the battlefield properly now.
- He was revived stronger in the sense that his body was superior now, due to the modifications, and he has more power. But he as a fighter was limited in unleashing all of his power, but he was still able to use his key abilities like PS. Which is what I think Hashirama was referring to, that he was starting to fight like his past self, when he used that smoke escape technique. Which is also then backed by Madara getting all hyped up about him now having a living body, so he could enjoy the battlefield properly now.
Note that he doesn't mention anything about being stronger, just excited of fully experiencing battle again
- He was only actually touched by the Bijuus, because he was being wreckless due to Hashirama's healing. Which is also him not fighting like how he would've in his prime back when he was alive with refinement and skill.
Yet was getting outmaneuvered by EMS Sasuke
When an enhanced version of EMS Sasuke(with Juugo's curse seal boost) alongside BSM Naruto were easily getting outmaneuvered by Juubito in a tag team
Yes Juubito is vastly above him, but the point is his alive version didn't show he is any better than his Edo version in fighting ability.
EMS Sasuke could outmaneuver him, the Bijus were destroying him before limbo, to the point he had to retract back, wait for White Zetsu to come with his Rinnegan to attack the bijus with his invisible limbo technique. In terms of fighting feats, he was outmatched
How is this not correct when War arc Edo Tobirama >> Part1 Edo Tobirama, or do you think they are equals? If not, what do you think changed? Obviously Orochimaru's mastery of the Edo Tensei
I'd post the panel again
What do you read here?
- Upped the precision of edo tensei
To up something = To raise something
Basically meaning Orochimaru raised the precision of his edo tensei compared to part1
However note that Tobirama didn't say he perfected the jutsu, he only said he raised it, and with raising comes a rating different, like raising something from 5/10 to 9/10 for example, so with a more precise edo tensei, but not exactly to the max score.
So no, i think you're overthinking this a bit. Tobirama's statement says everything. It's Orochimaru's edo tensei skill that improved, but not to max score, with his edos being close to their full power, but not exactly at full power
In fact what Tobirama's focus there wasn't that Orochimaru now had better skill of the Edo Tensei, but rather that because it's so much better now , he ended up summoning them to near full power and because they're near full power they can't be restrained. Since restraining them requires strong power. It was enough to bind Tobirama, but not Hashirama who's power was simply too much. So the focus was on them having a lot of power
The statement also doesn't carry over to Hiruzen & Minato, because neither of the two had a single panel dedicated in the entire war arc to point out that they weren't at their full power.
Hiruzen being restrained while Tobirama was casually walking.
And Hiruzen's raw power > Minato's raw power, as the guy can also crack up buildings from just raising his chakra like the brothers (happened in Orochimaru fight)
The entire chapter was also dedicated to showing off Hashirama & Tobirama's natural power. With starting off with Tobirama just lifting one of his fingers, and shaking the entire room:
But then Hashirama flexing a lot more to cool Tobirama down, to a point it cracked up the entire room.
The statement also doesn't carry over to Hiruzen & Minato, because neither of the two had a single panel dedicated in the entire war arc to point out that they weren't at their full power.
Hiruzen being restrained while Tobirama was casually walking.
And Hiruzen's raw power > Minato's raw power, as the guy can also crack up buildings from just raising his chakra like the brothers (happened in Orochimaru fight)
But then Hashirama flexing a lot more to cool Tobirama down, to a point it cracked up the entire room.
As you said, Hiruzen could do the same thing(in a clash with Orochimaru btw)
And Hiruzen had chakra/stamina issues due to old age to the point he was refraining to use shadow clones as much as possible
He also had 3/5 in stamina in old age
On the other hand, it's mentioned you need an enormous amount of chakra to be able to use SM, which is something even Tobirama praised, with Minato able to use it
In the same panel you're using to say Hiruzen is getting restrained, Minato is seen, and there are no signs of struggle on him, so does it not mean he wasn't affected by Orochimaru's edo tensei control according to your logic?
Orochimaru had no chance to completely control Minato anyway since he had Kurama as an external force affiliated to him, with Kurama's power being too much for Orochimaru to handle. I do think Kishi wanted to show off their chakra strength, but i don't think it had anything to do with comparison with the other ones. I think it was more because it was their first real display of power in the manga and thus Kishi wanted to show off the difference between the current version of their edo form comparatively to their much weaker form we saw in part1
Though Hashirama did show later he was on a complete different level, but it was already hinted at by the way Kabuto, Dan and Madara were praising him as the ultimate shinobi
As for Hiruzen, i believe that Orochimaru was just more focused on him at that point considering
As for what Madara was referring to, I think it's overall power not just 1 specific technique. Because if Hashirama isn't at full power, all the techniques he will use be weaker than they would be if he were at full power.
This is shown in the difference between Nativity of a World of Trees done by P1. Hashirama & Edo Madara.
This is shown in the difference between Nativity of a World of Trees done by P1. Hashirama & Edo Madara.
You say it doesn't reflect to one technique and that all their attacks would be weaker, but when you compare the damage effect of Edo Madara's perfect Susanoo and Alive Madara's perfect Susanoo, it's relatively the same
Which further suggest as mentioned before, that his edo tensei form wasn't any weaker than his alive form due to Kabuto's edo tensei being more perfected than Orochimaru's
Yet despite Edo Madara's Perfect Susanoo displaying similar level of power than his alive self, Hashirama's second strongest technique could still match it, same as when they were alive
That alone shows it wasn't any weaker, with coincidently the only thing Edo Hashirama couldn't use being his Shinsuusenju that Madara needed the Kyubi's fire power to fight
So no, i continue to believe there were no difference between Edo Hashirama and Alive Hashirama outside of Shinsuusenju, with the claim that they are close to their full power going in accordance to that considering Edo Hashirama could match similar level of power as alive, except with the inability to use his ultimate technique.
As for Tobirama, i'm just assuming this because the context was about Madara dodging Tobirama despite getting sneak attacked, with the discussion resolving around his speed, making me assume he may have meant his current peak of speed comparatively to his former peak of speed. Could literally be anything else, but i'm just assuming it's what he was referring to based on the context
In either case, as mentioned before, if it's the case with Hashirama, i believe it was also the case for the rest of Orochimaru's edos due to Orochimaru's edo tensei skill being lower than Kabuto's.
Edo Hiruzen didn't participate in the Juubi fight enough for people to notice the difference and Minato had Kyubi's power which made him stronger than alive. I'm referring manly to their base power being weaker. I think as mentioned before that you're overthinking this, at least as far as Tobirama is concerned because he is known to have lost to Kinkaku, who were eaten by the nine tails
Hiruzen was mentioned to have greater talent than Tobirama from young age in the databook, with Hiruzen living far longer than him
Hell Hiruzen in part1 was mentioned to have superlative strength even compared to other Hokage(although i think this was retconned to his 'professor nickname' while Hashirama got the god of shinobi title)
Was known as the fastest shinobi in his life, but admitted inferiority in his own domain to Minato(also mentioned in the databook)
With Minato also having SM he couldn't use in his entire life despite being much younger(24 compared to someone in his 50s)
So i don't think Tobirama was placed in a different pedestal at all, more like the contrary. For Hashirama though, i agree. He was clearly portrayed as a monster from the get go
Though i fear we might be going too much off-topic with this compared to what i initially envisioned(more focused on the regeneration restricted Edo Hashirama vs Shinsuusenju restricted Alive Hashirama), so would likely stop here, although the debate in itself is interesting
