So here's what's up: The next 2 battles would've been pretty boring tbh. Originally, L2R5 was supposed to be Gaku Ki vs Kyou, and L2R6 was supposed to be Ho Mei vs Earl Shi. I felt both of those matchups would've been pretty boring and wouldn't have generated much discussion, most would've favored Gaku Ki over Kyou without much need for elaboration, and most would've probably favored Earl Shi over Ho Mei even if I gave Ho Mei Ran Bi Haku as a subordinate (since Rei Ou is out), and thus I didn't feel any desire to post those threads because...yeah. They'd have kind of beenboring lol.
So, I figured we would wrap up Losers R2 in style!
Loser(s) of this round are eliminated
Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.
Round 5 - Losers Round 2
Gaku Ki
-The Legend of Yan: Gaku Ki will finish this bracket off with a Yan Army of 250,000
-Subordinate Generals: Geki Shin (with his Quanrong Cavalry)
Gaku Ki will also be joined by Yan Great General Ordo and a Yan Mountain Army of 50,000
Total Army Size: 300,000
VERSUS
Kyou
-One of Qin's 6 Great Generals: Kyou has a Qin Army of 150,000
AND
Go Hou Mei
-Wei's current #1 General: As Wei's current top dog, Hou Mei will receive a Wei Army of 150,000
Subordinate General: Due to the defeat of his Master, Hou Mei will now be joined by Ran Bi Haku
AND
Earl Shi Ei
-Wei Fire Dragon: As one of Wei's Fire Dragons, Earl Shi will be entrusted with a Wei Army of 150,000
Total Army Size: 450,000
Location: Shukai Plains
Scenario: War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.
Kyou, GHM and Earl Shi Ei are gonna take this with high-extreme diff.
GHM with RBH will be able to take out GekiShin with ease. RBH is almost an unstoppable force at battlefield. GekiShin might put up few strategy to stop his momentum but GHM can counter those with Brute force of RBH along with his own might.
Earl Shi Ei will probably run through Ordo and his army. And I’m not downplaying Ordo here. Ordo is the man who took the easy way out as soon as he figured out ShibaShou wasn’t playing around. In that battle odds were heavily against ShibaShou and yet Ordo thought of backing out as more suitable option for him. And in this scenario, Earl Shi Ei has numbers advantage 300k:450k. Ordo might put up a fight but will ultimately fall down with not much effort from Earl Shi.
Finally, the man who led the first coalition army and managed to save his Kingdom from total wipe out. I’m putting my money on the Kyou, GHM and Earl Shi’s combined force against him here. With the two Generals pre occupied with Ordo and GekiShin, it will be up to Kyou to stop him for considerable amount of time. From what we know, Gaku Ki is most likely a strategist and not military general like Ouki/Duke etc. Kyou is said to be the most reckless and frontline General who wouldn’t hesitate to charge against the enemy army no matter the casualties. With her charging against Gaku Ki army of 300k with her 450k army will probably throw Gaku Ki off his game. She was capable of sparring against Houken which means there shouldn’t be any single General who could take her on. The unstoppable force of Kyou will force Gaku Ki into defensive tactics which is exactly what Kyou army should be looking for. As Gaku Ki takes his time to defend his turf, GHM and Earl Shi will emerge victorious from their respective battles.
Finally, they will put their combined efforts together to defeat the Gaku Ki and his army of 300 k to its last man. The result of this battle is heavily focused on the Kyou army having a numbers advantage to put Yan army at their defensive end.
By hype, Gakuki solos. Hara puts him in a territory by himself whether it's the supplementary material or the manga, and the man in Kingdom-verse is the greatest general to exist in China so far and it's not really even close.
In that battle odds were heavily against ShibaShou and yet Ordo thought of backing out as more suitable option for him. And in this scenario, Earl Shi Ei has numbers advantage 300k:450k. Ordo might put up a fight but will ultimately fall down with not much effort from Earl Shi.
To be fair to Ordo, he didn't back out because he thought he couldn't take out Shibashou. He backed out for a bigger reason relating to Yan, had he not pulled back he would've risked a potential entrapment, along with reinforcements being requested to Ordo by city of You.
The Yan Army. Gakuki is noted in the canon to be the best General ever to exist, Ordo is a major help as well, & I'm never really impressed by Gohoumei's presence.
The Yan Army. Gakuki is noted in the canon to be the best General ever to exist, Ordo is a major help as well, & I'm never really impressed by Gohoumei's presence.
Gaku Ki was never stated to be the greatest general ever. His skills were stated to be on par with the Qin 6 and Zhao 3. So top tier, but not better than everyone lol. Riboku states that Gekishin, who was overall close to Gaku Ki in his prime, may have been able to have served as a Great Heaven of Zhao.
In other words, Riboku > Gaku Ki ~ the Qin 6 > Gekishin overall. Just in terms of their individual ability.
I feel the need to clarify since he did not, but the pyramid @Xione posted is strictly a graphed explanation of the Experience Stat in databooks
And NOT a graph of each general’s overall strength.
To understand how worthless this stat is, Duke Hyou is S ranked in experience while Go Kei of Wei was B ranked, yet Go Kei essentially almost obliterated Duke Hyou in less than a day. Both Tou and Shobunkun also have the exact same experience ranking, which is “A” (Tou has less experience than Shunshinkun who isn’t even a general, and Shobunkun has more experience than Gokei lmfao.)
The experience stat, like every stat in Kingdom databooks, is utterly useless.
I’ll continue my thoughts more on this matchup later.
Gaku Ki was never stated to be the greatest general ever. His skills were stated to be on par with the Qin 6 and Zhao 3. So top tier, but not better than everyone lol. Riboku states that Gekishin, who was overall close to Gaku Ki in his prime, may have been able to have served as a Great Heaven of Zhao.
In other words, Riboku > Gaku Ki ~ the Qin 6 > Gekishin overall. Just in terms of their individual ability.
I feel the need to clarify since he did not, but the pyramid @Xione posted is strictly a graphed explanation of the Experience Stat in databooks
And NOT a graph of each general’s overall strength.
To understand how worthless this stat is, Duke Hyou is S ranked in experience while Go Kei of Wei was B ranked, yet Go Kei essentially almost obliterated Duke Hyou in less than a day. Both Tou and Shobunkun also have the exact same experience ranking, which is “A” (Tou has less experience than Shunshinkun who isn’t even a general, and Shobunkun has more experience than Gokei lmfao.)
The experience stat, like every stat in Kingdom databooks, is utterly useless.
I’ll continue my thoughts more on this matchup later.
Well let me explain why I bothered posting that experience chart:
The Dakan plains battle points out just how effective the experience stat is. Duke Hyou was in a giant disadvantage of terrain & numbers during the Dakan plain war. But all it took him was a smalll distraction from Ouki, and Shin's battalion doing good (which was actually a very tiny thing in the overall scope of the war), for him to turn the entire war on it's heel. This showcased the entire gap between the Duke & Gokei, who abilities wise wasn't inferior to any great general.. but experience wise he was. This is also showcased in Ouhon & Karyo Ten, Karyo Ten strategically is smarter than Ouhon, however her lack of experience keeps her inferior to him overall strategist. It's often, in fact most of the times, what sets two people who are in the same level abilities wise from being equals. Another example is Riboku, who's abilities were touted as the best/superior to the Qin 6 & Zhao 3, but he still admit he couldn't beat Renpa at that point and realistically he wouldn't have been able to beat Ouki at that point either.. reason being wasn't his abilities (as those remained the same), but it was the experience that he lacked compared to them at that specific time (but that experience eventually changed to a S), where he now stands as THE top general in all of China.
Why was Tou recognized as the "perfect general"? Experience. His experience stands higher than any other general in Qin, bar Yotanwa.
Experience has a direct correlation with who can get recognized as a Qin 6 or a Zhao 3.
Now out of the Qin 6 there's only 1 person who lacked the S rank experience based on the ones we know of currently, and she was the youngest of the Qin 6, Kyou.. but even Kyou was a small step away from getting into the S rank, with her 100th castle, but stopped by Houken before that.
What is the "Weight of a general" based on? Experience:
This was also showcased greatly in the fight between Chou Tou vs Sei Kei , where Chou Tou had the experience rank of A and Sei Kei had the experience rank of C, where Choutou was able to showcase his "Weight" as a general.
As for Shunshinkun and his relation to military & experience: "Whether it be court officials or military officers, even if we were to take into account every person alive in China today...With his clout he would still be counted as one of the men standing at the absolute peak." - Gouhoumei.
His role for Chu was the same as Riboku's for Zhao, same as Karin's for Chu, same as Shouheikun's for Qin. So he def. had military experience mate, he was the military leader of Chu.
With that said you have non-military individuals with the experience stat as well, and that has to do with their own profession aka politics or w.e they do. Saitaku was the epitome of a diplomat, one of the most legendary figures of this era from the times of King Sho to even now he put in work. Single handedly got the Qi to not invade with the other states, which was credited to his greatness as a diplomat. And he got a S in experience, but ofc his S is related to his profession of a diplomat not military.
Who stands at S rank so far in Kingdom?
- Riboku (The top general in China, and Qin's biggest obstacle)
- Tou (The "perfect general" of Qin)
- Shunshinkun (Man who stood among the "Epitome" of all people in China)
- Saitaku (The top of diplomats)
- Renpa (The strongest of the Zhao 3 during his era)
- Ouki (The strongest of Qin 6)
- Yotanwa ( The King of Kings)
- Duke Hyou (epitome of "instinctual general")
- Hakuki (Leader of the Qin 6)
- Earl Shi (Epitome of the spear)
- Gaimou (Strongest of the wei fire dragons)
- Rei Ou ( a strategist acknowledged by the likes of Ouki & Kyou, THE strategist of the wei fire dragons)
All legendary figures in the manga who stood/stand at the peak of their respective factions. And we will see if Ousen gets put into the S rank after this campaign or not.
And who is the only person in the entire series to stand at SS Rank, a rank of experience that surpasses all the legendary figures mentioned above? Gakuki, the one who became renowned as "Military God" much like King Sho becoming renowned as "God of War". I'll get into his individual hype down below.
But if there is any stat you want to take serious and not dismiss as utter bs or w.e, it is the experience stat. As it's a stat based on the huge, mega, relevance of experience and it's correlation to reaching the epitome in military in the Kingdom-verse as a general & as a warrior.
As for the Gekishin and his relevance to Gakuki:
Gekishin's connection with Gakuki is literally no different than Gakujou's with Renpa. Underlings who copied the strategies and tactics of their superiors and then implimented them to some extent on the battlefield.. but when it came to the reality of testing them out.. they were nothing like the real one. Unless somebody actually believes Gakujou was on par with Renpa.
The reality is Gekishin was only able to replicate Gakuki's warfare to an extent where there were similarities between they commenced warfare:
But in the end he was nothing more than a miniature copy to the greatness of Gakuki.
Greatness of Gakuki:
West of china - 6 Great Generals of Qin
Central plains of China - 3 Great Heavens
East of China - Gakuki by himself
It was Gakuki who managed to preserve the balance of power in China against those huge entities. What we know about the 3 Great Heavens is also that they had individuals under them that were greatly immense like Gyou'un & Chougoryuu who were superior any underling we know of under any Qin 6 bar Tou. Or Renpa who possessed somebody like Genpo, a man who could've been in the same position as Shouheikun, chief of military affairs/prime minister, in Zhao. That's why the 3 of Zhao were able to balance out the 6 big dogs of Qin to an extent, cause their underlings were also immensely strong.
Where as Gakuki..no other hype for any other individual just himself.
Qin 6 ~ Zhao 3 ~ Gakuki himself, that's the balance of power. 1 man by himself was rivaling groups of GGs.
Feats:
1. By himself he was able to save Yan from being wiped off of the map by the superstate of Qi. A feat that hasn't been replicated by any other general in the manga so far.
2. He led the first coalition army of China, against the superstate of Qi, and almost wiped it off the face of China, until the Yan King died and got replaced by somebody who didn't like Gakuki, which led to Gakuki being replaced as a general just before there were only 2 cities left. And after Gakuki left, Qi was able to reconquer tremendous amounts of cities back.
No other general in Kingdom-verse has accomplished his feats. Only Riboku came close to the 2nd feat, and he failed at it.
"God of Military":
This is Hara sort of giving a historical spoiler, so just to be on the safe side I'm going to put this in spoilers to explain why the above is such a huge statement by the narrator of Kingdom, as it's related to individuals who occur after the events of the manga:
He was recognized as the "God of Military" by Emperor Gaozu & Zhuge Liang. Why is this such a huge thing?:
Emperor Gaozu aka Liu Bang- The man who created the Han dynasty by destroying the Qin dynasty, and then even defeated the grandson of Tiger of Chu. He is actually the real life version of Shin from around that era. A man who came from rags to becoming the 1 emperor of the Han dynasty, by winning battles and leading armies himself.
Zhuge Liang - considered the smartest military individual of the 3 kingdoms era, who published literature that rivaled that of Sun Tzu's "Art of War". He acknowledged Gakuki as the God of Military.
So whether it's hype/portrayal/feats, the man indeed stands at the epitome of the Kingdom-verse, and Hara doesn't shy away from emphasizing it as such by using his "God of Military" epithet, and making him stand above the rest of legendary figures with his massive experience over them.
The only person who has a claim to rival him would be Riboku, historically, as he was able to sustain the Zhao at their weakest, while the likes of Renpa & Ousen & Hakuki simply were the "Faces" of the militaries of their respective nations when the nations were at their strongest military wise (not to dismiss their individual feats). But even then it's just a claim to rival Gakuki. In-manga it could potentially be Shin, Ousen, or Riboku down the line.. we will see though, but nothing so far is implying or showcasing either of the 3 getting on Gakuki's level.. but we will see.
The post went a bit longer than I intended, but thought I should explain in depth the panels I posted to claim "Gakauki solos".
Gaku Ki is a top tier Great General who might be on whole another level. But I still don't think he can take this one. Geki Shin isn't anything more than copy cat General which @Xione has mentioned already. Ordo could be more of a problem than what I initially gave him credit for but Earl Shi is still taking his head.
As for Gaku-Ki, he did maintain the balance of power and protected his homeland from annihilation. On individual comparison he would clap all of the mentioned Generals. However, I find it hard for him to be equivalent to the actual military might of Qin's 6 GG, Zhao's 3 GH or Wei's 7 FDs. He barely managed to defend his country and that was also at the final stand where only one city was remained (???). He later on led the Coalition army to go on offensive mode. Also it is nowhere mentioned he did took on numerous heavy hitters at once. As I've said it earlier, he will be hard to take on but with the coordinated efforts of Kyou, GHM (on whom many people doubts) and Earl Shi he will fall or atleast back out.
Gaku Ki is a top tier Great General who might be on whole another level. But I still don't think he can take this one. Geki Shin isn't anything more than copy cat General which @Xione has mentioned already. Ordo could be more of a problem than what I initially gave him credit for but Earl Shi is still taking his head.
As for Gaku-Ki, he did maintain the balance of power and protected his homeland from annihilation. On individual comparison he would clap all of the mentioned Generals. However, I find it hard for him to be equivalent to the actual military might of Qin's 6 GG, Zhao's 3 GH or Wei's 7 FDs. He barely managed to defend his country and that was also at the final stand where only one city was remained (???). He later on led the Coalition army to go on offensive mode. Also it is nowhere mentioned he did took on numerous heavy hitters at once. As I've said it earlier, he will be hard to take on but with the coordinated efforts of Kyou, GHM (on whom many people doubts) and Earl Shi he will fall or atleast back out.
-> Qi was on the verge of annihilating Yan
-> Gakuki is then put as the lead for Yan military
-> Gakuki pushes them out of the Yan territory
^^ This is all done without the Coalition army. It's because of this accomplishment of his that the below happened:
-> AFTER all that he forms the first coalition army against Qi
-> Proceeds to annihilate Qi to a point where they only had 2 cities remaining, but before he could end Qi he was replaced by somebody else by the new king of Yan.
The strength of Qi at that time was that of a super power state. There's only 1 state in the entire series that has been recognized as a "super power state" outside of that Qi, and it's the state of Chu (the strongest military in the manga, while Qin gets there). The size of Qi at it's peak:
The size of Qi, after Gakuki formed the coalition army and went to work:
Compare that to Riboku's coalition army against the Qin, not a super power state at the time, were taken down before the Coalition could even take down the capital. On top of that Qin still had it's cities in tact on the borders and such.
Okay, I waited quite a while to comment on this one lol. But here goes:
So, this Yan Army lead by Gaku Ki is about to wrack up a large amount of victories in this tournament, if for no other reason than the fact that Gaku Ki has such massive hype surrounding him, and it was straight up stated that Gekishin was close to him overall and that Gekishin could've become one of the Three Great Heavens of Zhao had he chose to. Ordo is....a nice addition to the overall Yan presence in this tournament lol. Let's hope you Yan fanbois (if you exist) will be carried far by this team lol.
Others have already stated all this, but I'm going to restate it to establish my opinion.
Gaku Ki:
-Single handedly saved the state of Yan from annihilation by the at-the-time superstate of Qi. This is, for sure, one of the most insane feats in the Manga from what we understand.
-Gaku Ki also lead the first Coalition Army to ravage Qi and reduce it to it's current state.
These two pieces of hype Along with his "Military God" epithet serve to make a case for Gaku Ki, arguably, being the most hyped General of all time in the manga. I say arguably because there are a couple of other cases who I think could be considered equal to him in terms of overall hype but nevermind that for now.
Gekishin:
-was said to have derived his own personal style of Warfare by observing and imitating Gaku Ki
-was viewed as one of the two Heroes of Yan alongside Gaku Ki
Gekishin, at least as far as his hype goes, is one of the stronger subordinate Generals in the manga, and indeed his feat of tactically reading Riboku was extremely impressive, and I'm assuming he's at least stronger than Chou Garyuu as a fighter considering he used to slay Bushin in his youth.
Ordo:
-is the current number 1 General of Yan
-other than that, is basically a jobber when compared to the stronger Great Generals in the manga. His presence is nice but is not as important as Gaku Ki and Gekishin.
And on the other side:
Kyou:
-one of the original Great Generals of Qin, and seems to have been viewed in an extremely respected light among Great Generals
-had her style of warfare heavily praised by both Ren Pa and Kyou En
Earl Shi:
-The Legendary Spear of Wei, arguably the greatest spear wielder in the history of China (as far as we know anyway)
-personally slayed Three Wei Fire Dragons (a humongous feat and one of the craziest in the Manga)
-Became a Great General by overcoming suicide mission after suicide mission, winning them all decisively
Hou Mei:
-A growing power overall, but still quite strong in his own right. Kind of like Ordo but he hasn't been jobbed on as much.
While I do believe this would be a brutal war and a pretty close matchup, there's pretty much no denying that the Yan Army wins this right now..Gaku Ki's hype debatably puts him above even Qin's 6 GGs and the Zhao 3 Great Heavens, and while I believe the Qin 6 and Zhao 3 were very close to him, there's no denying that he himself was superior, while having a subordinate pretty much on that level anyway. The numerical advantage given to his enemies doesn't mean much considering Gaku Ki's feat against Qi.
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Scenario: War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.
