Great Generals Tournament, Pools-Round 2

[Elder Lee Hung]

Welcome back all to Round 2 of the Kingdom Great Generals Tournament! So before we get started, I want to clarify a couple of things thanks to some concerns made by @Patryipe and @Guan Yu :

Due to my own vagueness in describing the actual scenario for Round 1 of the tournament, we're throwing in a little retcon here:
-From now on, each of the battles will be designated to a specific battlefield featured at some point in Kingdom, just so everyone knows what the terrain of each battlefield specifically looks like and can get a better idea of what generals would try to capitalize on said terrain, if at all.
-To be fair to Kanmei, since the terms of the battle were not made explicitly clear from the start, he will not be eliminated and I will give him another round in the pools later on so that he has a fair shot at moving forward. In the future though, any general who loses a battle gets eliminated.
-Since Ousen still won the vote of his bout with Kanmei even with the circumstances making it appear as though Kanmei had the advantage, Ousen will move on to the next phase of the tournament anyway.

Also, I will give you guys more time in between rounds than just 24 hours, but I wanted to go ahead and start 2 due to the rule change. Lol

That said, let us continue:
Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

Round 2 - Pools

Duke Hyou

-Has the same army he had during the Dakan Plains arc, a Qin army of 100,000

VERSUS

Gai Mou

-Has Jun Sou and a Wei army of 100,000

Location: Dakan Plains
A large flatland featuring 2 Central hills

Spoiler

Scenario: War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.

Who Wins?

Spoiler

@Owl Ki @Edward Teach @Arara @Patryipe @Shanks @Den_Den_Mushi @ShinmenTakezo @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 @Dark Admiral

 

[Dark Admiral]

Duke Hyou takes this one. Gai MOU is just another block head who thought Ou-ki used to run away from him..

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Duke Hyou takes this one. Gai MOU is just another block head who thought Ou-ki used to run away from him..

Don’t forget about Jun Sou though, he is a competent strategist and more importantly, Gai Mou seems to listen to JunSou when he tells Gaimou to withdraw or not take certain actions, etc

 

[Owl Ki]

This is an interesting matchup @Admiral Lee Hung

I would say this is a rare instance in which Duke Hyou has a tactical advantage over an opponent who is a Great General. Gaimou is a brutish meat head that relies on Jun Sou to do the actual strategy and while Jun Sou is a decent tactician, he has not shown anything impressive enough for me to believe that he can cope with Hyou’s completely bizarre and erratic Instinctual tactics.

However, Duke Hyou is an individual that usually charges straight for the head honcho if given an opportunity. Funnily enough, so is Gaimou. Chances are that on a battlefield, these two will simply charge at and immediately engage each other in a dual. This will leave Jun Sou to direct the Gaimou Army as he sees fit without the problem of Hyou’s instincts interfering since Hyou will have his hands full with dealing with Gaimou.

A dual between Gaimou and Duke Hyou would be an extreme diff affair for both individuals involved. However, I would place my money on Gaimou being the victor more often than not. Since his introduction, he has always been placed on the same pedestal as the Qin Six and Zhao Three despite the fact that martial prowess is literally his only notable asset.

If Duke Hyou plays it tactically with the goal of destroying the opponent’s army then he will win. If Duke Hyou goes straight for Gaimou with the intention of taking his head in a dual, he will likely lose the dual while his army is being beaten by Jun Sou.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Don’t forget about Jun Sou though, he is a competent strategist and more importantly, Gai Mou seems to listen to JunSou when he tells Gaimou to withdraw or not take certain actions, etc

Excellent point, however Duke was able to teach even the mighty strategist Riboku a thing or two about the Instinctual type General. So, it’s hard to imagine him being beat by these guys. Gai Mou might survive the battle but will lose the war.

Post automatically merged: Jan 15, 2020

Its

This is an interesting matchup @Admiral Lee Hung

I would say this is a rare instance in which Duke Hyou has a tactical advantage over an opponent who is a Great General. Gaimou is a brutish meat head that relies on Jun Sou to do the actual strategy and while Jun Sou is a decent tactician, he has not shown anything impressive enough for me to believe that he can cope with Hyou’s completely bizarre and erratic Instinctual tactics.

However, Duke Hyou is an individual that usually charges straight for the head honcho if given an opportunity. Funnily enough, so is Gaimou. Chances are that on a battlefield, these two will simply charge at and immediately engage each other in a dual. This will leave Jun Sou to direct the Gaimou Army as he sees fit without the problem of Hyou’s instincts interfering since Hyou will have his hands full with dealing with Gaimou.

A dual between Gaimou and Duke Hyou would be an extreme diff affair for both individuals involved. However, I would place my money on Gaimou being the victor more often than not. Since his introduction, he has always been placed on the same pedestal as the Qin Six and Zhao Three despite the fact that martial prowess is literally his only notable asset.

If Duke Hyou plays it tactically with the goal of destroying the opponent’s army then he will win. If Duke Hyou goes straight for Gaimou with the intention of taking his head in a dual, he will likely lose the dual while his army is being beaten by Jun Sou.

It’s not that easy to lure in Duke Hyou, remember when Go Hou Mei tried to lure him in. He instantly smelled something off and decided to pull back. He isn’t all just Brute and was even considered as an equal to Qin’s Six.

 

[Owl Ki]

It’s not that easy to lure in Duke Hyou, remember when Go Hou Mei tried to lure him in. He instantly smelled something off and decided to pull back. He isn’t all just Brute and was even considered as an equal to Qin’s Six.

I am not saying he is getting lured at all, rather that Gaimou is so straight forward with wanting to physically challenge his opponents that Duke Hyou, who always goes for killing enemy commanders above all else, will gladly oblige him as he will consider the potential risks to be worth the high reward.

During the Battle of Dakan Plains, Hyou only had his eyes on taking Great General Gokei’s head and nothing else even as his own army was completely annihilated.

During the Battle of Kankoku Pass, he only had eyes for Keisha himself even when he was in a better position to slay Rihaku or Kou Son Ryuu in order to whittle Down his opponent’s army because he prioritised taking the enemy commander’s head above everything else.

Considering Duke Hyou is an individual that time and again has proven himself to be willing to sacrifice anything and everything to slay the opposing commander, would he really pass up the chance of Gaimou literally offering himself to a dual which is what Hyou would ultimately desire anyway?

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

I can’t remember who exactly it was, but I recall one of Duke Hyou’s men stating that “there’s probably no one alive who knows more about warfare than Duke Hyou” when people like Ouki, Renpa, Shouheikun, Riboku, etc existed lol.

The Duke’s Instincts are freaking top tier for sure. Unsure of how this would really impact a war between he and gaimou though. I think the Duke would mid/high diff JunSou as a tactician and would probably lose extreme diff to Gaimou? But I’ll give it to the Duke due to his instincts allowing him to earn a victory against Gaimou lol.

 

[DizzyBrows]

Duke claps here lol. I don't see his army being weaker in literally ANY sense in this war. His morale boosting is hyped to be insane and turn his men in monsters when he's leading in the front with his glaive, his instincts are the best in the series feat wise since he was capable of getting through RIboku's ryuudou tactic, or whatever it was called, and essentially checkmating him prior to Houken's involvement.

If it were to ever come down to a 1v1 between him and Gaimou, Gaimou still lacked anything seriously backing his weight while the Duke was never shown to lack such a thing and was capable of severely injuring Houken before he died.

Juunsou also isn't all that impressive so I don't think Duke would be having issues getting through his strategies.

 

[Owl Ki]

I can’t remember who exactly it was, but I recall one of Duke Hyou’s men stating that “there’s probably no one alive who knows more about warfare than Duke Hyou” when people like Ouki, Renpa, Shouheikun, Riboku, etc existed lol.

The individual in question would be Baku Koshin.

Spoiler

Admittedly, he is going to be biased since he serves under the Duke and besides, how many other notable Generals has Baku Koshin served under to the point where he is an authority on Great Generals?

The Duke’s Instincts are freaking top tier for sure. Unsure of how this would really impact a war between he and gaimou though. I think the Duke would mid/high diff JunSou as a tactician and would probably lose extreme diff to Gaimou? But I’ll give it to the Duke due to his instincts allowing him to earn a victory against Gaimou lol.

To me, this is one of those instances where the character’s personality actually interferes with their chances of winning.

Imagine if it was Houken leading an army against Duke Hyou. Duke Hyou is obviously a far superior tactician than Houken and would decimate his army with the utmost ease.

However if Houken went to the front lines and challenged Hyou to a dual, would Hyou refuse considering the Duke always intends to personally slay the opposing commander anyway?

Regardless, we all know how that duel went down.

Duke Hyou vs Gaimou is a similar deal. Gaimou is either too tough for Duke Hyou to defeat at all or will duel him to a standstill long enough for Jun Sou to inflict heavy casualties on the Duke Hyou Army by which point, Duke Hyou will be forced to either surrender or launch a final suicidal assault.

Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

The individual in question would be Baku Koshin.

Spoiler

Admittedly, he is going to be biased since he serves under the Duke and besides, how many other notable Generals has Baku Koshin served under to the point where he is an authority on Great Generals?

To me, this is one of those instances where the character’s personality actually interferes with their chances of winning.

Imagine if it was Houken leading an army against Duke Hyou. Duke Hyou is obviously a far superior tactician than Houken and would decimate his army with the utmost ease.

However if Houken went to the front lines and challenged Hyou to a dual, would Hyou refuse considering the Duke always intends to personally slay the opposing commander anyway?

Regardless, we all know how that duel went down.

Duke Hyou vs Gaimou is a similar deal. Gaimou is either too tough for Duke Hyou to defeat at all or will duel him to a standstill long enough for Jun Sou to inflict heavy casualties on the Duke Hyou Army by which point, Duke Hyou will be forced to either surrender or launch a final suicidal assault.

Well cited my friend
:cheers:

I think Baku Koshin is probably a more reliable metric for hyping generals than we might think, the higher ups in the Qin military probably know a great deal about the Generals leading the Qin military. The world of Kingdom is a very interconnected world in comparison to a world like OP where someone even as high up as Orochi literally knows 0 information of the world outside his home lol.

Not saying the Duke actually knows more than all those others I mentioned, just saying that I think the Duke’s knowledge of warfare is on the same level as the greatest military minds we’ve seen, even if he does perceive the battlefield in a different way than they do. Lol

As for the Duke getting baited by a duel: I don’t see that as being any different necessarily than Homei using the Ryudou against him. I think the Duke is smart enough to know a fight that he will struggle with when he sees one and will know when and how to retreat, the only reason he fought Houken would’ve been because of the desperate nature of the situation that Qin was in.

But I don’t see someone like Duke Hyou as being easy to bait into a duel lol. He wouldn’t fight Gaimou blindly imo.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Hats off to y’all that can still remember all those events so clearly . Y’all have way better memories than I do
Jokes aside lolz, I enjoyed reading most of y’all posts :p & prolly won’t have been able to answer this objectively without reading them ^^.

As much as I like Duke Hyou, in a 1 v 1 I don’t see how he beats Gai Mou. If there’s one thing that still remains vivid in my memory about Gai Mou, it’s that he had inhuman physical strength and was capable of completely ragdolling a Shin at the time who was no slouch. One could argue his opponent was a weaker version of Shin at the time who had still yet to reach great general class, as such, that battle might not truly reflect how Gai Mou compares to great general class fighters but thing is that Gai Mou’s strength stats rank amongst the top even in the great general class. The man has a whooping 97 points, tying Renpa & losing out by only one point to Ou Ki. In comparison to that, the duke has a total of 95 strength points which is still pretty boss but that difference in two points is huge imo. The duke is a lot more intelligent than Gai Mou but I don’t think it’d be that much of a game changer in a 1 v 1. Only fighter in the verse I think can completely offset a significant gap in strength with sheer intelligence (in a 1 v 1) is Mou Ten. So Gai Mou takes it if the two duel.

If the duke prioritizes thinining down Gai Mou’s army with the intention of forcing a retreat however, I think he wins without a doubt. Question though is, will the duke back down from a 1 v 1 against Gai Mou tho?😓 Given the duke’s personality, I doubt he’d turn down an invitation to fight Gai Mou.

 

[Dark Admiral]

I am not saying he is getting lured at all, rather that Gaimou is so straight forward with wanting to physically challenge his opponents that Duke Hyou, who always goes for killing enemy commanders above all else, will gladly oblige him as he will consider the potential risks to be worth the high reward.

During the Battle of Dakan Plains, Hyou only had his eyes on taking Great General Gokei’s head and nothing else even as his own army was completely annihilated.

During the Battle of Kankoku Pass, he only had eyes for Keisha himself even when he was in a better position to slay Rihaku or Kou Son Ryuu in order to whittle Down his opponent’s army because he prioritised taking the enemy commander’s head above everything else.

Considering Duke Hyou is an individual that time and again has proven himself to be willing to sacrifice anything and everything to slay the opposing commander, would he really pass up the chance of Gaimou literally offering himself to a dual which is what Hyou would ultimately desire anyway?

And again it wasn't that he was sacrificing his troops for nothing. He was lighting up the FIRE on the battlefield. Also Gaimou may charge him for all he want and Duke would still avoid him if it feels off for him. Remember when he and Shin withdrew the current battle to counter and stop Riboku before the Coalition arc( where he ultimately fell to Hou-ken).

 

[Shanks]

I'm going with Duke Hyou here. Reason is that, Duke is top tier instinctual general who has even crushed many top tier strategical generals.

In battle of armies Duke would be the winner and Jun sou would be a kid in front of him. Lol

In duel between Gaimou and Duke, i think Gaimou takes this 10 out 10 times, but if Duke get help from his generals, than surely he wins.

 

[Patryipe]

I pretty much agree with @Owl Ki Gaimou will challenge the Duke, and the Duke is not the kind of guy to hold back. So the entire thing will basically decided by their duel. I think Gaimou would edge it out.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

During the Battle of Dakan Plains, Hyou only had his eyes on taking Great General Gokei’s head and nothing else even as his own army was completely annihilated.

That’s another minor point, I know you and I have discussed this before but I wanted to go ahead and defend the Duke real quick:

I think there are very few (if any?) Generals in all of Kingdom capable of utterly obliterating 90,000 men in as short a time as Go Kei did against the Duke. Seriously one of the most absurdly nutty tactical feats in the series. Lol

So I don’t think Jun Sou will be capable of smashing the Duke’s men like Go Kei did, and I think the Duke will have a much easier time reading Jun Sou’s intentions as opposed to someone like Go Kei who was a monstrous strategist lol.

So just wanted to throw that in there, Duke Hyou’s army getting smashed at Dakan was thanks to how insane Go Kei was, it’s not necessarily a poor reflection on the Duke imo.

 

[Owl Ki]

And again it wasn't that he was sacrificing his troops for nothing. He was lighting up the FIRE on the battlefield. Also Gaimou may charge him for all he want and Duke would still avoid him if it feels off for him. Remember when he and Shin withdrew the current battle to counter and stop Riboku before the Coalition arc( where he ultimately fell to Hou-ken).

I did not say that he sacrificed his troops for nothing, I said that he is an individual that is more than willing to sacrifice as many troops as it takes for him to reach the enemy commander.

For this reason, accepting Gaimou’s offer of a dual at the cost of Jun Sou having free reign to do what he wants would be an acceptable risk for the Duke as he would have always intended to finish the battle by dualing Gaimou anyway.

As for Duke Hyou potentiality “feeling something off”, that would not really apply to this scenario because Gaimou is not baiting him into a trap, he is honestly offering a dual which is what Hyou would desire.

Besides, even if Duke Hyou actually does avoid Gaimou then that leaves Gaimou free to rampage through his lines which would be especially damaging for the Hyou Army since defensive tactics are not the Duke’s strongpoint. If Gaimou inflicts enough damage to the Duke Hyou Army to the point where he is interfering with their chances of victory then Hyou may be forced to confront him anyway.

That’s another minor point, I know you and I have discussed this before but I wanted to go ahead and defend the Duke real quick:

I think there are very few (if any?) Generals in all of Kingdom capable of utterly obliterating 90,000 men in as short a time as Go Kei did against the Duke. Seriously one of the most absurdly nutty tactical feats in the series. Lol

So I don’t think Jun Sou will be capable of smashing the Duke’s men like Go Kei did, and I think the Duke will have a much easier time reading Jun Sou’s intentions as opposed to someone like Go Kei who was a monstrous strategist lol.

So just wanted to throw that in there, Duke Hyou’s army getting smashed at Dakan was thanks to how insane Go Kei was, it’s not necessarily a poor reflection on the Duke imo.

I agree. Jun Sou is never going to pull off a Gokei level feat of crushing an entire 90,000 - 100,000 army in an afternoon. Lol. Gokei is simply a strategical god when it comes to battle tactics.

Jun Sou is going to inflict some serious damage when Hyou inevitably clashes with Gaimou and is not directly commanding his forces though. Once Gaimou slays Hyou, then it is simply mopping up the leftover regular soldiers and weathering the last suicidal charge from Hyou’s personal troops.

 

[Guan Yu]

I'm going with Duke Hyou.

Warfare wise, there's nothing from the Gaimou army that could prove to be a challenge for Duke Hyou. Junsou is a decent tactician, but he'll went up to smoke considering that Duke Hyou has crushed many more far better tactician. After all, Duke Hyou was a Qin 6 level and was summoned to be part of them but simply refuse it because he's not interested in becoming one. Duke Hyou personal army also seems to be superior than Gaimou's army, considering that even Ouki himself said that Duke Hyou's army are even more ferocious than his.

Even though Gaimou was also hailed to be on the same pedestal with Qin 6GG and Zhao 3GH, the only hope for the Gaimou army to win is for Gaimou himself to engage Duke Hyou in a single combat as soon as possible, otherwise his army would just be decimated by Duje Hyou army. Even then, Gaimou vs Duke Hyou would be similar to Duke Hyou vs Houken, which in this case, Gaimou is the inferior version of Houken, so the winning chance of the duel is 50:50.

So, with all factors considered, Duke Hyou has a far higher chance at winning this war.

 

[Xione]

Duke easy work.

- He's better as a general
- His main "fodders" are also better, as Gaimou has never shown any special fodder unit around him.
- And last but not least... Duke's amplification ability is just built different during a charge, which is going to end up being the primary way they'll fight in this battle.

It's already hard for a strategist to read through instinctual generals, good luck to Gaimou.


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