Great Generals Tournament, Pools - Round 9

[Lee Ba Shou]

The Hype Lords make their entrance!

Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

Round 9 - Pools

Haku Ki

-Haku Ki has a Qin Army of 120,000 (due to him having no known subordinates)

VERSUS

Gaku Ki

-Gaku Ki has a Yan Army of 100,000
-Subordinate Generals: Geki Shin (with his Quanrong Cavalry)

Spoiler

Location: Dakan Plains
A large flatland featuring 2 Central hills (Disregard the 3rd hill for fairness sake)

Spoiler

Scenario: War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.

The Winner of this match proceeds on in Winners, the Loser heads to the losers bracket.

Who Wins and Why?

Spoiler

@Owl Ki @Edward Teach @Shanks @Patryipe @Bullet @Dark Admiral @ShinmenTakezo @Den_Den_Mushi @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 @NeutralWatcher

 

[Shanks]

Tbh It's very difficult to choose between one of these two. Note that, historically there were no battle records between Yan and Qin before unification campaign.

GakuKi referred as war god and he was the most hyped general in previous generation. While HakuKi was the leader of Qin's six and was most ferocious and beastly general of that same era.

GakuKi's achievement was to stop Qi's advancement in China but he achieved that with coalition army and spreading Yan's borders while handling Zhao 3GH and Qi army.

HakuKi on the other hand was known for a general who fought for Qin not on its borders alone but he went inside many other states as well like invading Zhao, Wei, Chu and Han. Only general capable of such feat in warring era was another Qin six, ShibaSaku and Kyou. While HakuKi is known for one more thing, a beast who had killed millions of soldiers and many generals of China.

Now regarding topic, i am going with HakuKi for these reasons :
- HakuKi's battle records of being undefeated general.
- HakuKi singlehandedly had defeated three coalitions (Wei+Han, Wei+Zhao, Chu+Zhao+Wei with help of OuKotsu inlast one)
- HakuKi alone has fought against more GGs or mighty nations than whole Yan has fought in that era (Qin six era).

Now GakuKi had GekiShin as well that's why i think both can push HakuKi to high diff but would be losing to him.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Gaku-Ki has the feat of stopping the Qi's invasion and saving the state of Yan from the complete annihilation which gave him the title of "Military God". While on the otherhand, Haku-Ki the man who was also called The Leader of Qin's Six GG had remained undefeated through out the history. Haku-Ki is also mentioend to be the one who doesn't like to take unnecessary risks in the battle. Even Renpa himself had only words of praises for him. Even Ousen himself cannot be compared to Haku Ki is what Renpa said, which leads me to believe that Haku Ki is taking this one with mid-high diff.

 

[Blackbeard]

Despite Hakuki's undefeated record, i would still give this to Gakuki since it was stated that he kept the balance of power across China alone, single-handedly matching Qin's six great generals in the west and Zhao's three great heavens in central China.

 

[Owl Ki]

A battle of the hype, aye?

I am going to give it to Hakuki. Hakuki is pretty much the most hyped individual from this era. He was considered the leader of the Qin Six, in real life he is considered by Chinese historians as one of the four greatest Generals of the Warring States period (along with Renpa, Riboku and Ousen) and he has not a single recorded defeat, both in real life and in the manga.

The last feat is especially impressive considering that Hakuki regularly fought against the Wei Fire Dragons and the Three Great Heavens of Zhao.

While Gakuki does have Gekishin as a subordinate in this matchup, Gekishin learnt every single tactic that he uses from Gakuki meaning that in terms of tactics, there is no difference between them. If Hakuki can deal with Gakuki’s tactics then he can deal with Gekishin.

In a battle like this, Hakuki is going to plonk his perfectly undefeated arse on top of one of those hills, build a nigh impenetrable earth fort and defeat his opponents through strategy and force the Gakuki Army to either retreat or surrender.

Hakuki Army victory, high-extreme diff.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Look at that, we finally have a tie in the votes in pools! Lol

In the event of a tie, I usually plan to just either cast or withdraw my own vote as a tie breaker, but before I do that, it's time to push for Haku Ki Sama


I as well think Haku Ki would win this, and while @Shanks did a good job of listing why, I will also list my own reasons for why I think Haku Ki would win this, some of them from within the Kingdom Manga and some of them from his real actions in History that I think Hara will most likely end up making canon (forgive me for not pulling panels)

First off, Haku Ki was the leader of Qin's 6 Generals, and we can also pretty much confirm that he was the strongest as well from Renpa's and Kyou En's words about the 6. If a character is on the level of Qin's 6, that's top tier hype, but if a character is considered the strongest among all 6? That right there is some god tier hype lol. I don't think there was a huge gap between Haku Ki and the rest but he has been portrayed as being a standout among them. I will expand on this a bit later.

Second off, I think Haku Ki straight up has better hype than Gaku Ki. Gaku Ki's two main points of hype are that he saved the state of Yan from Qi which was a super state at the time, and then he was chosen to lead the first Coalition Army which turned Qi into the second weakest state from being a state that rivaled Chu in power. The only issue with this is that this hype is not attributed to Gaku Ki alone, but is also attributed to Geki Shin who, even though he was someone who learned everything he knew about War form Gaku Ki, is still given equal credit for these feats and was stated to have been able to reach the rank of Great Heaven.

Haku Ki's hype on the other hand....the leader of Qin's 6 Great Generals which turned Qin from a low/mid tier state into a high tier state in one lifetime? A leader of a bunch of unstoppable dragons who turned Qin into a high tier state almost rivaling Chu and who set the stage for unification later on? That in and of itself is just crazy hype for me, especially since we are unaware of any 6GG/Great Heaven level subordinates that Haku Ki had fighting alongside him. And on top of all this, Haku Ki was a historically undefeated General who was credited with killing over a million people (though the Kingdom Wiki has his Canon kill-count at only 890,000 lol). That imo is just slightly superior hype.

Lastly, real life historians consider Haku Ki to be a greater General than Gaku Ki, as Haku Ki is listed alongside Renpa, Riboku, and Ousen as being one of the four greatest generals of the time.

I implore you guys who have understandably and justifiably voted for Gaku Ki, to take a second look at this matchup (or convince us to vote for Gaku Ki lol) @Guan Yu @Arara @Patryipe @Edward Teach @NeutralWatcher

Now I'm going to hit you guys with some hardcore opinions:

Spoiler: The Following is straight opinion with little manga evidence backing

As for this matchup, like @Owl Ki said, Gekishin's inclusion is semi-redundant as their is tactically no difference between him and Gaku Ki.

In terms of fighting strength, I think Haku Ki will likely be stronger than both Geki Shin and Gaku Ki. I picture Gaku Ki to be a Mougou-type general in the sense that he would only pick up a weapon if an enemy General had made it to his headquarters but otherwise was a tactician in his battles, while Haku Ki was more balanced and had no fears about personally charging into battle so long as he was certain that he would be victorious (as Renpa stated Haku Ki never took any risks, though this does not necessarily mean that he didn't personally charge into battle in the right situation). Meaning Haku Ki is likely stronger as a fighter than Gaku Ki. The wiki lists Geki Shin as being a weaker fighter than Gaku Ki which seems wierd to me but whatever lol.

As far as tactics go, I hate using DB stats, but Gaku Ki has a 98 in intelligence and Haku Ki has a 99. Meaning, there is a minute difference between them in intelligence and Haku Ki would have the tactical edge, even if it was a small one. Gaku Ki has a 100 in leadership which to me means that he was likely capable of "awakening" or amping his men up to strength levels that we have never seen before in Kingdom, in fact Gaku Ki was probably the GOAT of morale raising, though against an epicly cautious man like Haku Ki I question how relevant this will be.

So Haku Ki wins in tactics and personal martial strength while Gaku Ki wins in morale raising/amping his troops strength. Overall, I say Haku Ki wins extreme diff.

 

[Shanks]

@Admiral Lee Hung i think HakuKi is someone who can only be compared with Shibasaku and that is in either previous era or current era of kingdom series.

Both were true undefeated monsters who had singlehandedly faced coalition twice or thrice and defeated them. Both also considered as butcher generals.

While HakuKi is someone who had killed over millions of soldiers and that is why even in present days people of China remember him as demon of warring era. Most even don't know who was Li Mu (Riboku) or Wang Jian (OuSen) or Lian Pa (Renpa).

What do you think @Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki with whom HakuKi can get compared with in whole series ????

 

[Dark Admiral]

@Admiral Lee Hung i think HakuKi is someone who can only be compared with Shibasaku and that is in either previous era or current era of kingdom series.

Both were true undefeated monsters who had singlehandedly faced coalition twice or thrice and defeated them. Both also considered as butcher generals.

While HakuKi is someone who had killed over millions of soldiers and that is why even in present days people of China remember him as demon of warring era. Most even don't know who was Li Mu (Riboku) or Wang Jian (OuSen) or Lian Pa (Renpa).

What do you think @Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki with whom HakuKi can get compared with in whole series ????

Rin Shou Jo, of Three Great Heavens with all of his 10 retainers. Since, all he has is Hype and is even considered more talented than Renpa himself I can't help but put him on the Top spot for GG. For him to be still alive and well in the era of Riboku would have turned the tide of Chinese History.
“ To achieve victory while having both friend and foe alike dance in your palms...That is what it means to be a Great General. Let's attribute that one to Ren Pa, shall we? Hahaha!! ”

 

[Owl Ki]

@Admiral Lee Hung i think HakuKi is someone who can only be compared with Shibasaku and that is in either previous era or current era of kingdom series.

Both were true undefeated monsters who had singlehandedly faced coalition twice or thrice and defeated them. Both also considered as butcher generals.

While HakuKi is someone who had killed over millions of soldiers and that is why even in present days people of China remember him as demon of warring era. Most even don't know who was Li Mu (Riboku) or Wang Jian (OuSen) or Lian Pa (Renpa).

What do you think @Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki with whom HakuKi can get compared with in whole series ????

Well in terms of how he is portrayed in the manga then Hakuki is like a hybrid between a prototype Ousen combined with Kanki’s brutality.

Shibasaku is currently the most mysterious of the Qin Six. Everyone else, even Hakuki, has had something about themselves or their past revealed to the reader. Shibasaku has nothing apart from being a member of the Qin Six. It would be good to see some more information on him in the future. Lol.

@Admiral Lee Hung on a side note, for this matchup I do not think it really matters who is martially superior to who. Hakuki is described by Renpa as an individual who never took risks.

Spoiler

As such, when it comes to martial prowess, either Hakuki knows he can personally slay either Gekishin or Gakuki in a dual and does so or Hakuki knows he either cannot defeat them or that the risk is too great and he simply proceeds to fight a tactical battle and claim victory through strategy.

Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

As such, when it comes to martial prowess, either Hakuki knows he can personally slay either Gekishin or Gakuki in a dual and does so

This, imo lol. I have a feeling that Haku Ki would be martially stronger than both just from the panel I posted earlier of him personally charging into combat lol.

 

[Owl Ki]

This, imo lol. I have a feeling that Haku Ki would be martially stronger than both just from the panel I posted earlier of him personally charging into combat lol.

On what little information there is on these blokes, I would put my money on either Gekishin or Hakuki for the strongest dualist in this matchup. Gekishin is pretty underrated due to getting curb stomped by Houken but come on, it is Great Heaven Houken. Lol. Gekishin had no problem with personally leading the charge against Riboku’s Headquarters and was confident in his own ability to put down individuals that managed to kill Ouki (Houken physically and Riboku strategically).

I believe both Gekishin and Hakuki would be in the same dualist tier as individuals such as Choutou, Mougou and Gokei (i.e. Master Dualists).

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

On what little information there is on these blokes, I would put my money on either Gekishin or Hakuki for the strongest dualist in this matchup. Gekishin is pretty underrated due to getting curb stomped by Houken but come on, it is Great Heaven Houken. Lol. Gekishin had no problem with personally leading the charge against Riboku’s Headquarters and was confident in his own ability to put down individuals that managed to kill Ouki (Houken physically and Riboku strategically).

I believe both Gekishin and Hakuki would be in the same dualist tier as individuals such as Choutou, Mougou and Gokei (i.e. Master Dualists).

If Geki Shin and Houken fought 10 times, I think the most Geki shin can hope for is to push Houken to mid diff lol. This man got utterly trolled by 1 armed Houken even after trying to use his full strength to get Houken’s Glaive off of him.

That, is not at all how I see Haku Ki vs Houken going lol.

If Duke Hyou vs Houken was a high diff for Houken, and Houken vs Ouki was an extreme diff for Ouki disguised as an extreme diff for Houken thanks to Gi Ka (Lol), then I think haku ki martially would push Houken to about a high diff the same as Duke Hyou did. Accept without getting initially thrashed like the Duke did, as Haku Ki probably has more brute strength.

I think Gekishin vs haku Ki would pretty much look like go Kei vs Duke Hyou, around a mid/high diff for haku Ki