Great Generals Tournament, Winners R1 - Round 3

[Lee Ba Shou]

Clash of the Titans!

Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

Round 3 - Winners R1

Ren Pa

-Renpa has a 100,000 man Zhao Army
-Subordinate Generals: Rinko, Genpo, Kaishibou, and Kyou En

Spoiler

VERSUS

Ou Ki

-Ouki has a Qin Army of 100,000 men
-Subordinate Generals: Tou, Roku Omi, Kan Ou, Rin Bou, Dou Kin, Ryuu Koku, etc etc

Spoiler

Location: Bayou Outskirts

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Scenario: Ou Ki begins on the Zhao Side. Ren Pa begins on the Qin side.
War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.

Who Wins and Why?

Spoiler

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @Shanks @Patryipe @Bullet @Dark Admiral @ShinmenTakezo @Den_Den_Mushi @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 @NeutralWatcher

 

[Shanks]

Scenario: Ou Ki begins on the Zhao Side. Ren Pa begins on the Qin side.

What you mean by this, Major???

Like when Renpa alone got behind MouGu HQ in the end of Sanyou campaign !!!!

 

[Blackbeard]

Hardest round so far

Renpa is basically Zhao's version of Ouki who "not even Ri Boku can best in battle". both of them are strategical/instinctual hybrid generals able to create schemes/adapt with battlefield, and they have the same feeling of ferocity, using both the hardness/softness route in warfare. Renpa managed to stalemate both Ouki AND Hakuki during the battle of Chouhei, seen personally charging in the frontlines. Ouki may not have been as talented as he was before his death but a great feat nonetheless.

i consider Ouki during his prime and Renpa as equally talented, with Renpa having a slight edge in leadership/Ouki having the edge in physical strength and battlefield insight. though Renpa showed great insight when he managed to see through Ousen's lure and not be deceived by attacking his mountain fortress, Ouki's intuition and broadened vision is on another level, realizing that Zhao was hiding a massive second army during battle of Bayou mainly by analyzing Chou Sou's fighting style, literally luring Fuuki ( one of the most patient Zhao commanders ) by letting him move half of his army to make way for HSU to reach his HQ.

With equal numbers, we have to take a look at the available vassals/generals working under them. first of all, i will ignore the bullshit Genpo said about Kaishibou being equal to Renpa lol. secondly, when it was said the Four Heavenly Kings are miles ahead of Ouki's commanders, I don't think that statement would be the same when Ouki himself leads the charge. there is a difference between regular hearsay and actual facts.

Ouki's defense formations are said to be like walls of iron, only capable generals like Rinko using special offensive formations like Rindou can effectively break through to the center. have to reread Sanyou to not underestimate Genpo/Kaishibu/Kyou En though, but i don't think they affected the battlefield as much as Rinko did. on the other hand, Tou, Roku O Mi and Kan Ou are the only worthy Qin commanders that did something notable ( that i can remember so far ). overall, i think Renpa's commanders are much more balanced. Rinko for rush attacks and assassinations/Genpo for warfare strategy and schemes/Kaishibou for head-on collisions/Kyou En archery considered Top 10 in China, but Tou is still the most talented out of them because there are statements directly combaring him to Ouki.


i will go with Ouki, i have no legit claim why he wins since both sides are perceived as equals who managed to stalemate each other, but i think Ouki's intuition would be the influencing factor.

 

[Owl Ki]

@Admiral Lee Hung Hmm, it sure is lucky that you created a thread on this exact matchup before and I made a post on it. :smithnie:

Okay, may Lord Papa Ouki forgive me but..... I believe the Renpa Army takes this one.

Renpa and Ouki overall are equals, though I do believe Renpa to be the superior tactician since he supposedly held off both Hakuki and Ouki simultaneously, along with Mougou claiming Renpa is a strategic/instinctual hybrid and I believe Ouki to be the superior dualist since he nearly killed Houken thrice (first time Ouki assumed his death, second and third time Ouki was interrupted) while Renpa was knocked around by Mougou.

These two will lock each other down, they have to. This however works far more in Renpa’s favor since the battle then relies on each General’s subordinates and this is where the Four Heavenly Kings shine.

Ouki has one exceptional subordinate in Tou and a bunch of alright subordinates in his 5 Army Commanders.

The Four Heavenly Kings however, are all exceptional.

Best case scenario for Ouki’s vassals I could conjure (which is still grim) is:

1) Tou vs Kashibou: Tou victory if uninterrupted (highly unlikely), Kashibou stale mates until assistance arrives.

2) Rokuomi and Rinbou vs Rinko: Debatable outcome, most likely stalemate until assistance arrives.

3) Kanou and Doukin vs Kyouen: Kyouen victory, Kanou and Doukin slain.

4) Ryuukoku vs Genpo: Genpo victory, Ryuukoku retreats.

Tou will defeat Kashibou if given enough time. He is a far superior strategist and the Tou cavalry will match Kaishibou’s Guard. Kaishibou himself won’t go down easily and it will take Tou some time to personally kill him, time that Tou doesn’t have.

If Rinko is pincered by the other two in a 2v1 dual, he could lose. However, Rinko is a smart tactician and between his superior Zhao cavalry, his elite guard and his intelligence, he should avoid this. Rinko can defeat either one in a 1v1, however he needs to be fast enough to kill one before the other interrupts. Possible with Rinbou, unlikely with Rokuomi who held against Rinbukun while dodging arrows.

Here is where it all falls apart. Kyouen steam rolls here no contest. Kyouen went up against Renpa, Kyou and Ousen and gave all of them a tough time. His aggressive tactics will crush these two. From here, Kyouen is free to assist whoever needs it and will most likely send troops to Rinko and he himself will ride to Kaishibou’s aid and could kill Tou.

Ryuukoku stands no chance against Genpo’s tactics. He simply cannot match them and as the least combat oriented, he will not punch through Genpo’s lines. The reason this is Ryuukoku’s best matchup is that he will die instantly against any of the other Kings and can at least retreat in this scenario. He will also last longest against Genpo since he himself is focused more on tactics than personal combat.

Considering this was the best outcome I could conjure for Ouki’s vassals, I don’t think I need to state the worst case scenario to show how fucked they are.

From here, Renpa can regroup with his Four Kings and gang up on Ouki with whoever he wants, probably Kaishibou and Kyouen. He is comfortable with doing this since he had no problem planning to gang up on Mougou with himself and Rinko.

I apologise my lord Papa Ouki but I cannot see victory here for you today.

Spoiler

View attachment 306

 

[Shanks]

I believe Renpa has advantage here due to overwhelming presence of 4 heavenly kings along with mighty Renpa.

On the other side Ouki and Tou are alone who can match them or even slay those monsters.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Hmm, interesting match up. Never have I had second thought about picking up the winner in these GG battles. Firstly we have Renpa who has his 4 heavenly kings who are all mighty and veteran warriors. On the other hand Ouki has Tou, Roko Oumi, Rin Bou, etc. But, apart from Tou none of the Ouki’s vassals have proven their art of battle other than of brute strength and reckless charging feats. Even Roko Oumi led the suicidal attack on Zhao after Ouki fell in the battle.
The Heavenly Kings on the other hand are all atleast a tier above than Ouki’s vassals (minus Tou). Rinko was capable of piercing Ouki’s iron defense and even land a blow on the man himself. Kaishibou is a brute who can hold off any of Ouki’s commanders and slay even few. Genpo being a cruel strategist, can lure out any of Ouki’s hot headed commanders and slay them in his leisure. Kyou En can snipe off the commanders with his Ten-Bow skills like we have already seen in the battle of Sanyou, where brats from Chu managed to kill off one of the commanders of Ouki.
The only factors that Ouki has an advantage of is if he can make a quick work of Renpa and his army before they can grasp the over all situation of the battlefield. Tou could be the crucial wild card for Ouki to play. Cause he can faru-faru-faru his way through any named army IMO. Renpa was physically weak even compared to old Mougou and we all know Ouki is a beast who even in a death door was able to overpower the mighty Houken. And considering both Renpa and Ouki already has equal knowledge of each other, Ouki will try to exploit this and try to end this battle the sooner the possible. He is smart enough to see through the whole of a battlefield with the mere formation of the opponent. And also the point is even though his commanders are all but reckless hot headed brutes, they all are veterans and battle tested warriors who lived through countless battles thanks to Ouki and his genius. Hence, Ouki takes this one. Renpa has a fair chance but Ouki has the overall advantage with all his Demi-God soldiers when he leads them from the front. :cheers:

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Ren Pa and his OP-ass Heavenly Kings strike again lol, Ren Pa is taking this over Lord Ou Ki.

Ren Pa is basically the Michael Jordan of Zhao in terms of fighting traditional warfare. When it comes to overall versatility on the battlefield, I don't think really any army in this tournament that we've seen will match the abilities of Ren Pa and the Heavenly Kings.

Gen Po taught Ren Pa tactics and was capable of serving as the head of the entire Zhao Military.

Kai Shi Bou is a mighty warrior general who's martial strength has been hyped as being equal to Ren Pa multiple times (and I see no reason to doubt this lol.)

Kyou En is a Top 10 Archer in China and a General who has gone toe to toe with 4 of Qin's 6 GGs and Ren Pa himself in the past and presumably hasn't outright lost to any of them.

And Rin Ko is a very versatile general with offensive formations on par with the strongest offensive formations we've ever seen in the entire series.

On top of all this, you have Ren Pa himself who is a general with no real weaknesses to exploit, he is both a master strategist capable of devising grand strategies, an extremely strong instinctual commander who can read the battlefield using intuition, and a Legendary Warrior capable of going blow for blow with the mightiest warriors in Kingdom history.

The Ou Ki Army is close in strength to this but they don't have this level ability overall. Ou Ki is someone I'd consider = to Ren Pa in basically every aspect, and ofc Tou is = to Ou Ki which I think puts him >= every Heavenly King present overall, but Ou Ki's subordinate generals, while strong in their own right, are well below the Heavenly Kings which is what ultimately tips this matchup in Ren Pa's favor. I would give this to Ren Pa more times than not.

Looks like my thoughts haven't changed much since this lol:

Ouki ~ Renpa >= Tou >= 4 HK > Ouki’s vassals

There is a significant ability gap between the HK and Ouki’s vassals that is tough to make up with just Tou, but in Kingdom, numbers don’t matter *that* much, what ultimately will decide victory will be synergy/unity of the armies.

Strategically, Renpa and Genpo make very strong cases for themselves, both being very strong or even top tier tacticians.

However, I would argue that Ouki and Tou could match them in the strategic battle, Ouki is someone who I think is impossible to actually outplay strategically, even Riboku himself barely managed to fool him based on what was basically a technicality (the speed of the Zhao horsemen). On top of Ouki being someone who just wont fall for any tricks and will have a counter for any scenario, Tou is the same way, being impossible to fool/trick really.

Renpa is somehow both an instinctual and strategic type, but I don’t think Ouki and Tou would fall for any Instinctual nonsense lol.

So grand-strategy wise, stalemate.

As for the actual battle itself, Ouki’s vassals are at a disadvantage against the 4HK, and Tou alone is not enough to bridge that gap.

Ouki and Renpa in my opinion is about an equal fight but I’d give a slight edge to Ouki.

This battle could go away but I’m leaning towards the Renpa army, because the 4HK are stronger than Ouki’s vassals. They would provide Renpa with more options to win the battle than Ouki would have with just a Tou.

So could go either way but Renpa wins more often that not

 

[Xione]

Ouki is Shin's main goal. And Ouki was to King Sho, what Shin is to Ei Sei. The military sword of his will. And Shin is gonna be the top general by EoS, one would assume Ouki who is his goal was also the same. So that's general portrayal.

Now in manga, Ouki is the general who people want dead the most, not Renpa. Since Ouki isn't somebody who commits genocides, this is essentially about him having the biggest feats as a general than any other.

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And on top of that he was regarded as the top general out of the Qin 6:

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On the other hand, Renpa has that feat of holding up Ouki & Hakuki. Renpa is the bigger general of the two, historically. So it's hard to say, but sticking with just the manga, I'd bet on Ouki.

Now that's them as generals. As for their army:

Kashibou is balanced out by Rokuomi, in terms of battle prowess. Kashibou is the better one when it comes to tactics tho.
Kyou En is balanced out by RyuuKoku, RyuuKoku isn't as good as Kyou En in battle, but he is better in strategy than him, so that should somewhat balance it out between the two.
Rinko is balanced out by Doukin & Rinbou together
Genpou is outdone be Tou

(Throw in Kanou to whichever one needs help)

The commanders of Ouki's army paired up with Tou are superior to the 4 heavenly kings if we're just looking at it on paper.

 

[OmegaPsyche]

Ouki wins, how can he lose when
Tou is working for him?