Versus Battle Haku Ki Army Vs Ri Boku Army
- Thread starter Elder Lee Hung
- Start date
"Godboku". That title would be better to use when Riboku could achieve something positive for his state.
- Lost western border of Zhao.
- Lost southern area of Zhao.
- Lost Atsuyou, second of the three major city along with Gyou and Kantan.
Yeah with his strategy his killed three times more than the expected soldiers of the Ousen at Atsuyou and later buried around 75K at somewhere between Roumu and Atsuyu.
Even if he was successful in burying all of Kanki's army along with new army right now, it won't be anywhere near to what HakuKi did in these wars :
293BC - Battle of Yique: Haku Ki defeated Wei-Han coalition army and killed 240k troops
289BC - Shiba Saku and Haku Ki invaded Wei and captured 61 castles
279BC-278BC - Battle of Yan and Ying , capital and second biggest city of chu : Haku Ki invaded Chu, flooded castle Yan (along with giant Chu Army that was stationing in) and captured capital of Chu - Ying
273BC - Battle of Hua Yang: Qin+Han vs Zhao+Wei. Haku Ki and Ko Shou defeated alliance army and killed 150,000 Zhao-Wei soldiers. Before battle Ko Shot captured 3 Wei castles
262BC-260BC - Battle of Changping (Chouhei); Ou Kotsu and Haku Ki vs Ren Pa
I doubt if he could ever even beat HakuKi.
HakuKi was the biggest devil appeared in all time of China who has not only defeated each and every state of warring era but also crushed all of the coalition ever formed against Qin in his time. Buried more than a millions of soldiers of opponent states.
Crushed Chu so badly that they couldn't appear again against Qin for many years in warring era till the formation of biggest coalition army. (As mentioned in history. If you want to claim defeat of OuKotsu against Chu than actually that never happened historically, just like there's no Ouki. But in manga that actually happened so mentioned it here).
In three wars against Zhao, he crushed them so badly that they couldn't recover even till the last war of unification. Even destroyed the glorious northern army of Zhao. Riboku could only delay Qin's project of unification with all of his struggles.
Riboku can never get closed to what HakuKi achieved in his days.
- Lost western border of Zhao.
- Lost southern area of Zhao.
- Lost Atsuyou, second of the three major city along with Gyou and Kantan.
Yeah with his strategy his killed three times more than the expected soldiers of the Ousen at Atsuyou and later buried around 75K at somewhere between Roumu and Atsuyu.
Even if he was successful in burying all of Kanki's army along with new army right now, it won't be anywhere near to what HakuKi did in these wars :
293BC - Battle of Yique: Haku Ki defeated Wei-Han coalition army and killed 240k troops
289BC - Shiba Saku and Haku Ki invaded Wei and captured 61 castles
279BC-278BC - Battle of Yan and Ying , capital and second biggest city of chu : Haku Ki invaded Chu, flooded castle Yan (along with giant Chu Army that was stationing in) and captured capital of Chu - Ying
273BC - Battle of Hua Yang: Qin+Han vs Zhao+Wei. Haku Ki and Ko Shou defeated alliance army and killed 150,000 Zhao-Wei soldiers. Before battle Ko Shot captured 3 Wei castles
262BC-260BC - Battle of Changping (Chouhei); Ou Kotsu and Haku Ki vs Ren Pa
I doubt if he could ever even beat HakuKi.
HakuKi was the biggest devil appeared in all time of China who has not only defeated each and every state of warring era but also crushed all of the coalition ever formed against Qin in his time. Buried more than a millions of soldiers of opponent states.
Crushed Chu so badly that they couldn't appear again against Qin for many years in warring era till the formation of biggest coalition army. (As mentioned in history. If you want to claim defeat of OuKotsu against Chu than actually that never happened historically, just like there's no Ouki. But in manga that actually happened so mentioned it here).
In three wars against Zhao, he crushed them so badly that they couldn't recover even till the last war of unification. Even destroyed the glorious northern army of Zhao. Riboku could only delay Qin's project of unification with all of his struggles.
Riboku can never get closed to what HakuKi achieved in his days.
Are you trying to provoke me Shanks? Because if so you are succeeding. Lol
Riboku singlehandedly revived the entire Zhao military from a period of turmoil. The Xiongnu pillaged Zhao horribly every year and threatened Kantan itself multiple times. Riboku showed up and exterminated the Xiongnu so horribly that they would never fuck with China until after Riboku’s death. Riboku also re-instituted the Three Great Heavens system which had been abandoned by the Zhao military until Riboku brought it back.
“Did nothing for Zhao”???? My brother in Christ, Riboku is Zhao lol. Riboku is the whole reason Zhao rivals Qin in power instead of being Yan’s bitch to the west. Lol
Please use history tags for historical spoilers. Anyway, this is horribly wrong:
Anyway, within the Kingdom manga, Renpa by himself held off both Ouki and Hakuki for two years straight. The same Renpa who Gyou’Un straight up said Riboku was stronger than, held off Hakuki and an entire other 6GG by himself.
Ouki also said that Riboku’s strength was “unprecedented”, meaning by definition that Ouki viewed Riboku as being stronger than Hakuki (because he is).
By historical spoilers and by manga portrayal, Li Mu/Riboku is superior to BaiQi/Hakuki.
Riboku singlehandedly revived the entire Zhao military from a period of turmoil. The Xiongnu pillaged Zhao horribly every year and threatened Kantan itself multiple times. Riboku showed up and exterminated the Xiongnu so horribly that they would never fuck with China until after Riboku’s death. Riboku also re-instituted the Three Great Heavens system which had been abandoned by the Zhao military until Riboku brought it back.
“Did nothing for Zhao”???? My brother in Christ, Riboku is Zhao lol. Riboku is the whole reason Zhao rivals Qin in power instead of being Yan’s bitch to the west. Lol
Please use history tags for historical spoilers. Anyway, this is horribly wrong:
Li Mu was such a massive threat to Qin that Qin knew that Zhao would never fall while he was alive. Qin straight up had to mastermind Li Mu’s execution in order to defeat Zhao as they viewed Zhao as being unconquerable with Li Mu alive. Put some respec on Li Mu.
Anyway, within the Kingdom manga, Renpa by himself held off both Ouki and Hakuki for two years straight. The same Renpa who Gyou’Un straight up said Riboku was stronger than, held off Hakuki and an entire other 6GG by himself.
Ouki also said that Riboku’s strength was “unprecedented”, meaning by definition that Ouki viewed Riboku as being stronger than Hakuki (because he is).
By historical spoilers and by manga portrayal, Li Mu/Riboku is superior to BaiQi/Hakuki.
Yup. Lol
Missed debates here or in TKC for more than a year. Tried this in other threads with Riboku as well for you. Lol
Definitely revived Zhao from the turmoil.
But my point is he didn't made Zhao glorious like Renpa did by invading other states increasing borders etc. He even lost in Qin's invasion of Zhao on multiple occasions.
He couldn't drive back enemies in three attempts so now he's trying cripple them by reducing there numbers.
On the other hand HakuKi not only defended Qin from invasion of other states (even with Coalition) , he also invaded there states capturing there territories.
Riboku tried to invade Qin and even with dream of destroying them. For that he formed biggest coalition. But the same coalition not only failed in winning Northern pass with huge numbers but also failed in southern pass where there was only nobodies like soldiers and a king in his teens.
While HakuKi without any need of coalition and singlehandedly invaded Chu and flooded there capital and 2nd largest city.
That's the huge or overwhelming difference between the two GGs.
But Riboku himself said he can't defeat Renpa. Man knows better about himself than someone else. Lol
That's about his level of plotting against others. But we saw him winning only two battles with that "unprecedented" level. And one strategy to form coalition as well but later got failed.
Facts and achievements speaks louder than anything else.
HakuKi has unbeaten military record while Riboku has too many defeats where he holds upperhand against enemies in the beginning.
Missed debates here or in TKC for more than a year. Tried this in other threads with Riboku as well for you. Lol
Definitely revived Zhao from the turmoil.
But my point is he didn't made Zhao glorious like Renpa did by invading other states increasing borders etc. He even lost in Qin's invasion of Zhao on multiple occasions.
He couldn't drive back enemies in three attempts so now he's trying cripple them by reducing there numbers.
On the other hand HakuKi not only defended Qin from invasion of other states (even with Coalition) , he also invaded there states capturing there territories.
Riboku tried to invade Qin and even with dream of destroying them. For that he formed biggest coalition. But the same coalition not only failed in winning Northern pass with huge numbers but also failed in southern pass where there was only nobodies like soldiers and a king in his teens.
While HakuKi without any need of coalition and singlehandedly invaded Chu and flooded there capital and 2nd largest city.
That's the huge or overwhelming difference between the two GGs.
But Riboku himself said he can't defeat Renpa. Man knows better about himself than someone else. Lol
That's about his level of plotting against others. But we saw him winning only two battles with that "unprecedented" level. And one strategy to form coalition as well but later got failed.
Facts and achievements speaks louder than anything else.
HakuKi has unbeaten military record while Riboku has too many defeats where he holds upperhand against enemies in the beginning.
Renpa historically was not known for conquering huge chunks of land, he was primarily known for defending Zhao from Yan and Qin. He’s not really a territory conqueror historically
Riboku doesn’t care to conquer territory. What was it Riboku told Shin? “So long as you believe that all there is to warfare is conquering territory, you will never defeat me in this life.”
This is the same Riboku who defeated Renpa’s peer in Ouki. Hakuki could not defeat Renpa even with Ouki helping him.
Riboku would’ve exterminated Ousen and Kanki during the Gyou Campaign if the Zhao court wouldn’t have removed him from the battlefield. Hakuki had the benefit of Qin courts never interfering in his battles, unlike Riboku. If Riboku were given free reign, Qin unification wouldve already failed 3 years ago.
No General in Kingdom history would’ve succeeded where Riboku failed lol. If Hakuki couldn’t break Renpa’s defenses, he would not be able to break an entire state’s defense lol.
Riboku said he could not defeat Renpa in open warfare. But Riboku already defeated Renpa’s peer in Ouki. Lol
Riboku doesn’t care to conquer territory. What was it Riboku told Shin? “So long as you believe that all there is to warfare is conquering territory, you will never defeat me in this life.”
This is the same Riboku who defeated Renpa’s peer in Ouki. Hakuki could not defeat Renpa even with Ouki helping him.
Riboku would’ve exterminated Ousen and Kanki during the Gyou Campaign if the Zhao court wouldn’t have removed him from the battlefield. Hakuki had the benefit of Qin courts never interfering in his battles, unlike Riboku. If Riboku were given free reign, Qin unification wouldve already failed 3 years ago.
No General in Kingdom history would’ve succeeded where Riboku failed lol. If Hakuki couldn’t break Renpa’s defenses, he would not be able to break an entire state’s defense lol.
Riboku said he could not defeat Renpa in open warfare. But Riboku already defeated Renpa’s peer in Ouki. Lol
Renpa in his early campaigned against Wei and Qi and took few of there castles. I'll post some of the links/sources for that later. Also about Qin and Yan, yup he only defended against them.
Riboku doesn't desired any land ? Than why so overwhelming desired for crushing Qin. Defeating another state or reducing there numbers or taking there lands are all parts of desiring more land/power.
Impossible, when he got so thoroughly defeated by Ousen at Shukai plains, he couldn't achieve anything after that at Gyou against Ousen.
He could only plan his next move somewhere else. And Northern Zhao is his best option.
Using diplomacy and warfare strategies was always the forte of Riboku, Ousen, HakuKi or ShouHeiKun (as shown in history or even in manga except for HakuKi).
Riboku used Chu's prime minister to build coalition against Qin is just like Saitaku bribing Qi's king against Coalition or Qin using Zhao court against Riboku.
Actually Riboku didn't succeeded in anything while HakuKi or OuSen succeeded in everything.
Riboku with biggest coalition couldn't win even a chunk of Qin land while HakuKi alone and without any coalition flooded Chu and won there capital. Both Qin and Chu are powerhouses and chu has biggest army in whole china but difference here is Riboku with everything couldn't achieve even a little thing while HakuKi alone shaken the whole Chu.
It's just the both Renpa and Ouki are of same generation who fought against each other on multiple occasions and this doesn't mean both are same.
Riboku admitting Renpa above himself is far more bigger proof of strength than Riboku defeating Ouki.
As for Renpa vs HakuKi and Ouki, if not talking about actual historical content and who played in that war, but going to same events of that war. Commander General of Qin pushed back Renpa miles back inside Zhao. It started somewhere in the western border area and pushed Renpa inside to the hilly area of changping. Here Renpa crossed the River and took hill area and than started stalling Qin army for longer period with the help of River which was in between two armies. So in the beginning and middle phase of Changping war it was Renpa who first couldn't secure border and than got thoroughly pushed back.
Riboku doesn't desired any land ? Than why so overwhelming desired for crushing Qin. Defeating another state or reducing there numbers or taking there lands are all parts of desiring more land/power.
Impossible, when he got so thoroughly defeated by Ousen at Shukai plains, he couldn't achieve anything after that at Gyou against Ousen.
He could only plan his next move somewhere else. And Northern Zhao is his best option.
Using diplomacy and warfare strategies was always the forte of Riboku, Ousen, HakuKi or ShouHeiKun (as shown in history or even in manga except for HakuKi).
Riboku used Chu's prime minister to build coalition against Qin is just like Saitaku bribing Qi's king against Coalition or Qin using Zhao court against Riboku.
Actually Riboku didn't succeeded in anything while HakuKi or OuSen succeeded in everything.
Riboku with biggest coalition couldn't win even a chunk of Qin land while HakuKi alone and without any coalition flooded Chu and won there capital. Both Qin and Chu are powerhouses and chu has biggest army in whole china but difference here is Riboku with everything couldn't achieve even a little thing while HakuKi alone shaken the whole Chu.
It's just the both Renpa and Ouki are of same generation who fought against each other on multiple occasions and this doesn't mean both are same.
Riboku admitting Renpa above himself is far more bigger proof of strength than Riboku defeating Ouki.
As for Renpa vs HakuKi and Ouki, if not talking about actual historical content and who played in that war, but going to same events of that war. Commander General of Qin pushed back Renpa miles back inside Zhao. It started somewhere in the western border area and pushed Renpa inside to the hilly area of changping. Here Renpa crossed the River and took hill area and than started stalling Qin army for longer period with the help of River which was in between two armies. So in the beginning and middle phase of Changping war it was Renpa who first couldn't secure border and than got thoroughly pushed back.
It was OuKotsu against Renpa than Zhao changed Renpa and right at that moment Qin changes OuKotsu with HakuKi who clean sweeped Zhao there.
You need to reread Gyou lol. When Ousen and Kanki were trapped inside of Gyou with no food, all Riboku had to do was prevent them from receiving reinforcements and they all would’ve starved to death. Which Riboku would’ve done had the Zhao court not arrested him lol.
Riboku did not admit Renpa was above him, he said he could not defeat Renpa in open warfare. It was Renpa who called Riboku the most dangerous man in all of China.
I’m all for Kingdom debates but you are lying too much bro.
Riboku did not admit Renpa was above him, he said he could not defeat Renpa in open warfare. It was Renpa who called Riboku the most dangerous man in all of China.
I’m all for Kingdom debates but you are lying too much bro.
Where ?
I'll post other replies later on.
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Fine I'll reread but you have got to do this more thoroughly and thats before Gyou as well.
Ousen occupied Riboku/SSJ in believing that food arriving through Retsubi but later showed them it's fake than made them see that its arriving through river but that's original and let them be happy by showing "yeah you won ans destroyed all of the ships with food". With this plots he played perfectly with the minds of both Riboku and SSJ. Till Riboku realized the original plot, it was too late for him. At that moment food cane under the nose of Kaine and other Zhao soldiers but they couldn't realize it till Riboku send message. So even if he was present there he couldn't stop it assuming even presented Zhou soldiers, Kaine and may be BanaJi as well couldn't see through it.
Ousen's plan was totally solid without loopholes as in this :
- Going towards Gyou from Retsubi.
- making locust to affect Riboku.
- Fitting spies in Gyou to make Riboku taking haste decisions at critical moment for Qin.
- show them food supply through Retsubi fails regularly.
- receive food supply through river route with the help of Qi.
- Till Riboku understood this point, food was already inside Gyou. Here Kaine was also present and even she couldn't see through where food came. (Lol don't know how is this got possible). After receiving Riboku’s message and later arriving at front could she see through food supply carts.
Actually this situation is quite similar to what Riboku did with Ouki at Bayou. Ouki knew that its a bait and new army is coming that's why he hastly went to kill Houken and save MouBu, but surprisingly Riboku’s speed was quite faster than what Ouki imagined and later made his loss.
Similarly here Ousen completely checkmated Riboku with his strategies whether that happened in Retsubi, locust around Gyou, spies inside Gyou, Shukai plains center battle or later in Gyou's food supply.
Don't know if there's any role of Ousen behind the arrest of Riboku here as well. Though won't be surprised if it is.
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For the most dangerous man of all china , Riboku is best in plotting against others either generals or state but its not like his plans were always something that others couldn't counter. Riboku won against Ouki even though Ouki see through his plan because of underestimating opponent. Gekishin did same, though he nearly sent him to the heaven but underestimated Houken. Killing these two made him most dangerous man of china. That's all after that failure after failure. Most dangerous man getting checkmated regularly.
As for the first par of this quoted message, still going to say Riboku himself mentioned he can't beat Renpa and as for Renpa mentioning him as most dangerous man doesn't mean Renpa believes he can't beat him.
I'll post other replies later on.
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Fine I'll reread but you have got to do this more thoroughly and thats before Gyou as well.
Ousen occupied Riboku/SSJ in believing that food arriving through Retsubi but later showed them it's fake than made them see that its arriving through river but that's original and let them be happy by showing "yeah you won ans destroyed all of the ships with food". With this plots he played perfectly with the minds of both Riboku and SSJ. Till Riboku realized the original plot, it was too late for him. At that moment food cane under the nose of Kaine and other Zhao soldiers but they couldn't realize it till Riboku send message. So even if he was present there he couldn't stop it assuming even presented Zhou soldiers, Kaine and may be BanaJi as well couldn't see through it.
Ousen's plan was totally solid without loopholes as in this :
- Going towards Gyou from Retsubi.
- making locust to affect Riboku.
- Fitting spies in Gyou to make Riboku taking haste decisions at critical moment for Qin.
- show them food supply through Retsubi fails regularly.
- receive food supply through river route with the help of Qi.
- Till Riboku understood this point, food was already inside Gyou. Here Kaine was also present and even she couldn't see through where food came. (Lol don't know how is this got possible). After receiving Riboku’s message and later arriving at front could she see through food supply carts.
Actually this situation is quite similar to what Riboku did with Ouki at Bayou. Ouki knew that its a bait and new army is coming that's why he hastly went to kill Houken and save MouBu, but surprisingly Riboku’s speed was quite faster than what Ouki imagined and later made his loss.
Similarly here Ousen completely checkmated Riboku with his strategies whether that happened in Retsubi, locust around Gyou, spies inside Gyou, Shukai plains center battle or later in Gyou's food supply.
Don't know if there's any role of Ousen behind the arrest of Riboku here as well. Though won't be surprised if it is.
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For the most dangerous man of all china , Riboku is best in plotting against others either generals or state but its not like his plans were always something that others couldn't counter. Riboku won against Ouki even though Ouki see through his plan because of underestimating opponent. Gekishin did same, though he nearly sent him to the heaven but underestimated Houken. Killing these two made him most dangerous man of china. That's all after that failure after failure. Most dangerous man getting checkmated regularly.
As for the first par of this quoted message, still going to say Riboku himself mentioned he can't beat Renpa and as for Renpa mentioning him as most dangerous man doesn't mean Renpa believes he can't beat him.
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Riboku > Hakuki as far as we are talking about manga versions.
There's little to no info on Hakuki in the story, but Hara sneaked some information that can help to determin the scaling.
First, how Ouki considered Riboku unprecedented level just based on his grand plan in Bayou.
Ouki was someone who lived through the prievious era of generals and can be considered a reliable source for powerscaling. And this is still not including Riboku's other abilities that he hasn't shown at this point in the story. It also goes in line with Hara's trend to potray current generation above the old.
Hakuki's mediocre stats also don't help his case and give more insight on how Hara views him. Him being the leader of old 6GG means more or less same as Moubu being the leader of new one - aka it doesn't make him tier above the rest, but still on their overall level.
Then there's the issue of Riboku's statement about him loosing to Renpa where people often ignore the context of it being purely in direct clash. While also forgeting that Hakuki fought Renpa by avoiding fighting him directly as much as possible.
Last thing we also have to consider is the issue of match up. Just because this way of fighting was effective against Renpa who is more straight-forward doesn't make them as effective against Riboku. And this is where Riboku's super fast horses come into play. Trying to use hit and run warfare and ambushes against enemy with superior mobility and careful approach seem counterintuitive and can just backfire on you horribly. For more proof of this see the recent battle against Kanki. Even tho Kanki was successful in taking Riboku off guard he failed to secure the kill in time, because how fast the reinforcements were able to move from one battlefield to another and how Riboku set his formations in a way to secure his HQ.
I can see Hakuki wining if he tries to use Zhao's rotten politics against Riboku or stacks his deck higher, but that is all very situational.
There's little to no info on Hakuki in the story, but Hara sneaked some information that can help to determin the scaling.
First, how Ouki considered Riboku unprecedented level just based on his grand plan in Bayou.
Ouki was someone who lived through the prievious era of generals and can be considered a reliable source for powerscaling. And this is still not including Riboku's other abilities that he hasn't shown at this point in the story. It also goes in line with Hara's trend to potray current generation above the old.
Hakuki's mediocre stats also don't help his case and give more insight on how Hara views him. Him being the leader of old 6GG means more or less same as Moubu being the leader of new one - aka it doesn't make him tier above the rest, but still on their overall level.
Then there's the issue of Riboku's statement about him loosing to Renpa where people often ignore the context of it being purely in direct clash. While also forgeting that Hakuki fought Renpa by avoiding fighting him directly as much as possible.
Last thing we also have to consider is the issue of match up. Just because this way of fighting was effective against Renpa who is more straight-forward doesn't make them as effective against Riboku. And this is where Riboku's super fast horses come into play. Trying to use hit and run warfare and ambushes against enemy with superior mobility and careful approach seem counterintuitive and can just backfire on you horribly. For more proof of this see the recent battle against Kanki. Even tho Kanki was successful in taking Riboku off guard he failed to secure the kill in time, because how fast the reinforcements were able to move from one battlefield to another and how Riboku set his formations in a way to secure his HQ.
I can see Hakuki wining if he tries to use Zhao's rotten politics against Riboku or stacks his deck higher, but that is all very situational.
@Elder Lee Hung
after all said and done ... I changed my vote to Riboku
Hakuki hype can't overshadow his feats
after all said and done ... I changed my vote to Riboku
Hakuki hype can't overshadow his feats
I can't make up my mind on the strength level of the past Qin6 compared to the current time, especially Ousen vs Hakuki.
Hakuki was portrayed as even more cautious than Ousen, but there's also a panel were he slays fodder like a psychopath whereas Ousen never showed the same desire to fight personally.
Ousen said that Riboku's tactics in the actual clash were superior so I'm going to give it to Riboku here. Ousen and Hakuki probably are at their best whenever they're being attacked.
Hakuki was portrayed as even more cautious than Ousen, but there's also a panel were he slays fodder like a psychopath whereas Ousen never showed the same desire to fight personally.
Ousen said that Riboku's tactics in the actual clash were superior so I'm going to give it to Riboku here. Ousen and Hakuki probably are at their best whenever they're being attacked.
