Controversial Is Gaimou Correct?

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#1


So I was rereading Gaimou’s fight with Shin, and Gaimou’s view of what war is really stood out to me this time. Gaimou describes war as “a slaughterhouse for the strong to butcher the weak, however they please”, and he describes “dreams” and such as being honeyed words to lure in the ignorant. And honestly, is he wrong?

Kings like King Shou and Sei who fight wars in the name of unification are rare. The vast majority of Kings and rulers we’ve seen in Kingdom fight wars for no such purpose.

Look at the Chu for example with Shunshinkun and Kouretsu. These guys didn’t expand Chu for any kind of nobler purpose like a dream of one day ending the wars, these guys expanded Chu for the sole aim of territorial expansion, because a larger and more powerful Chu benefited them personally.

Look at the state of Zhao. You mean to tell me that the damn clowns in the Zhao Royal court ordered the battles they ordered for a nobler purpose? I think not lol.

And then of course there was the state of Qin after King Shou and before Sei, the regimes ran by Sei’s father and by Ryofui. Ryofui himself outright did not believe unification was possible, Ryofui was only interested in advancing his own power and wealth. Sei’s father is largely unknown to us but from what we do know, he seemed to be another self-interested schemer like Ryofui.

These are examples of ruling bodies who ordered wars be fought for their own self-interests, probably using the propaganda of greater purpose and righteousness to lure in casualties by the hundreds of thousands. Honestly when it comes to regimes like these, Gaimou’s assessment of war is 100% correct.

And then you have kings like Shou and Sei who genuinely do believe in the causes and dreams for which they fight wars. Even these kings can be viewed as self-interested liars by the general population of China. When Hakuki buried 400,000 Zhao men alive, did King Shou punish him? No lol, King Shou probably didn’t approve but he also didn’t punish Hakuki. When Kanki beheaded 100,000 Zhao, did Sei punish him? Not at all. Sure he almost did but that’s no consolation to the families of the dead. So even to the people of China, Sei and Shou can be viewed as propagandistic warmongers who don’t actually believe in the dreams they claim to believe in.

I think history will prove Sei/Shin/Ouki and the like correct, but honestly can Gaimou be blamed for thinking this way? Honestly rereading this Gaimou struck me as based and woke, even as someone who wants to see China unified.

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#3
It's probably the most simple, global and realistic answer to warfare.
However you have to take into account individualities, they are not necessarily wrong either when they talk about their dreams and such thing. Imo the values, morals and goals of the soldiers also matter. It's a naive answer but we know for example Shin doesn't go to war to beat the weak and as an ex slave he does know the harsh realities of life and the relationships between the powerful and the weaklings (on a political standpoint that is).
 
#4
Well ultimately, the idealistic dreamers like Shou, Sei and the original Qin Six can only achieve their lofty goal of unifying China by having a stronger military than all of their opponents. So in that regard, Gaimou is still very much correct. The ideologues have to be stronger than their realist opponents and to unify China, they are going to have to invoke greater carnage than anything that has ever been seen before amongst the Warring States.

Hara is going to have to make Shin give one of the best damn speeches in the series to overcome Gaimou's worldview. Especially when you remember that the original reason why Shin became interested in unifying China was not because of some inherent desire to see peace be achieved through unification (like Sei) but because Renpa flat out stated it was the only possible way for the new generation of Generals to undeniably prove their superiority over the old generation. Shin has to go down this path to keep his promise to Hyou of becoming one of the greatest Generals ever.
 
#5
Not to write too much on it, since I'm working on a megathread of ideologies and politics of Kingdom. My opinion is that if we are looking at it from our irl point of view and our history in mind, then Gaimou's viewpoint is very correct. People deluded themselves with things like fighting for their nations for grander dreams for being martyrs, when ultimately it has always been the powerful manipulating the "inferior population" to waste their lives for them on the battlefield. But i'm not sure if Gaimou was referring to the overall political landscape of China/world.


HOWEVER, within confines of Kingdom-verse with the universe Hara has created. Gaimou is wrong. Gaimou's statement here is made in relation to 1on1 fighting, where Ouki (and Renpa) looked down on Gaimou and didn't consider him worthy for a duel because he wasn't fighting for a grander purpose. In Kingdom-verse fighting for a greater purpose boosts your martial prowess in an all-out fight (this is different from Weight of a General). Thus Ouki & Renpa were in the right, because it does boost you martially, allowing you to overcome monsters like Houken. And for them there was no point in fighting an opponent who while martially is great and formidble but cannot unleash his full out prowess, because he's not fighting for a greater purpose/dream.
 
#6
To me, the most comprehensive explanation on warfare in the story was given by Ryofui during the rebellion.



I think neither side is necessarily wrong here, just like Ryofui mentions, conflict won't cease, without going in to historic spoilers, even after the warring states period there was even more conflict and bloodshed during the Han dynasty.
 
#8
Yeah he's based i guess lol
Everyone has their own ideals and goals but it's fun to have someone like him who just fights becuse and doesn't give a fuck
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#11
Probably off topic, but I find it rather funny and ironic how Gaimou’s voice actor in the anime is also the same guy who voices Teach in OP

And both of these 2 characters couldn’t be any different… Gaimou rejects lofty dreams while BB embraces them
Watching this clip really made me realize how much I hate anime lmfao. Most anime just look like complete shit outside of rare exceptions like attack on titan or season 1 of One Punch Man.

Just look at the overwhelming gap in quality:


Has the era where anime studios even gave a minuscule shit ended after all?
 
#12
Watching this clip really made me realize how much I hate anime lmfao. Most anime just look like complete shit outside of rare exceptions like attack on titan or season 1 of One Punch Man.

Just look at the overwhelming gap in quality:


Has the era where anime studios even gave a minuscule shit ended after all?
I burst out laughing when the horse literally slid sideways like a feckin wet soap bar on a tile floor. :rolaugh:
 
#15
Kingdom deserves way higher quality animation. It's really sad
At this point it's useless
It's not gonna gain any fans even if they improve it unless they start from the beginning
If they do a Vinland saga like anime from the first arc it could be huge
It would be best anime of all times material when it gets animated like Vinland or AOT.
 
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