Hello, everyone. This is sort of my theory on what I predict Hara's take on Kouen will be. The take/theory is essentially based on using historical facts and some of the known manga facts regarding Chu and Kouen himself that we know. The thread will explain his rise to power and how formidable he actually is. The thread is sort of an accumulation of all the posts i've made about Kouen with some new ideas added into it. I figured it'd best to put them all together to have a solid theory. IF YOU DON'T WANT HISTORICAL SPOILERS PLEASE DON'T CONTINUE. For those who have continously wondered what exactly the answer is to replace Riboku as the big threat after his death... this thread will hopefully give you that answer.
Kingdom timeline so far & Where Kouen fits in:
Conqueror of the East:
As we know he is renowned as the Conqueror of the East. Many assume that means he took part in the coalition against that superstate Qi. I however, simply disagree because the timeline and age for what he would be by the time the Chu invasion happens would be too insane. I do not see Hara giving us an out of prime Kouen for Chu. Which is what he would be were we to go with the assumption he was a big general during the coalition (so roughly somewhere in his 20s at minimum).. meaning about the time of the Chu invasion he'd be around 80 years old, which is simply unrealistic to me even by Kingdom standards for the role he's meant to play.
There is a time period that happens (in the kingdom timeline) from 280 BC (Gakuki retires and leaves to Zhao) to where we're introduced to Chu as the superstate in the coalition arc.
Post-Gakuki's retirement, Chu and Qin are the most powerful remaining states that were left. In 279, Qin takes away major land from the Chu (for comparison you can see in the KINGDOM manga when the story starts Chu's land went across the big river):
Then by 269BC, Qin took more of their land:
Then soon after Qin goes through the Chouhei shit, and King Sho dies, etc etc. As Kanmei and etc pointed Chu & Qin hadn't faced in the past 20 or so years.
The story then tells us that from the year 260-241 BC, Shunshinkun turned the state of Chu into a superstate by conquering the small states around them, which had powerful generals like Man'U and such. If you look in the maps above you'll see the area to the east of Chu was grayed out, as it wasn't part of any of the big 7 states, and even looking back at 300 BC there were even more grayed out areas. The Chu for hundreds of years weren't able to conquer that area, same for the Qi... implying there was a powerful kingdom or group of people that resided there. As you can see in the rough historical map below, there is a significant territorial gain made by Chu in the East. I believe this is what Hara will use for "Conqueror of the East". Because it is he who extends the Chu's lands to the East making it touch the seas... and size of that land being bigger than Wei & Han combined.
Now in the manga the map for Chu is considerably different presently pre-Juuko, some of those areas that Qin historically conquered is taken by Chu. I think there's like possibilities of Qin conquered those lands but weren't able to maintain them (due to King Sho's death) thus that area gave rise to minor states like Beki that Man'U is from... or the area wasn't fully conquered by Chu from the get go but minor states, thus those minor states rebelled back, which allowed the Chu to retake that area by conquering those areas thus avoiding a clash with the Qin... or Hakuki and co never made it to the capital in the manga-verse, but I doubt he'd remove such a huge feat:
Minor States:
We know there were other minor Kingdoms around Chu like Beki, that weren't conquered until Shunshinkun came in. And they held formidable generals like Sentou'un and Man'u, high level strategists like Juko'Ou.
The Baiyue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue
Though the manga has primarily focused on the Xiongnu as the powerful "barbarians", there is a group of people to the south of Chu that are damn near equally formidable. Looking at the panels below when they're mentioned, the first thing we see is them being compared to the Xiongnu. Now this isn't a specific region in the south of Chu, but across the southern border of Chu in general. We know Rinbukun specifically was able to climb to the rank of a General solely based on his time there. And in addition we're told that it is a land of endless battle. HISTORICALLY, after the unification it is said that Qin Shi Huang sent half a million people to conquer the Baiyue regions, and even lost the first invasion which forced him to send convicts to defend those battle lines. So these are a big enemy that Ei Sei will be dealing with post-Unification as well, similar to the Xiongnu situation with Mouten in the north.
Now Xiongnu are renowned for wanting to invade Zhao constantly, leading to regions like Ganmon. One would assume similar is the case for the Baiyue people given their comparison to the Xiongnu. And if that is the case, then it would be logical to assume that when Chu got fucked up by Hakuki and co, the threat on the southern Chu borders would also increase. This also gives Kouen another way to grow into top end power, by driving off potential Baiyue invasions, akin to Riboku driving off the Xiongnu invasions.
They will also likely be used as the reason for Kouen not being renowned like that in the Plains and only mentioned by the Chu generals.
Summary of the KOUEN timeline:
- Participates in the huge Qin vs Chu wars that happen between 280BC-260BC, rising to the rank of a General/Great General by the end of it. Which he had become a top tier general, I don't think he was the main dog of Chu by the end of it. So Great General could be a reach, but at the very least he was a general.
- From 260-245 or so, he conquers the Eastern (+ partially southern) area of China. Where he'd face the Baiyue people (could be akin to the Xiongnu or just a downgraded Xiongnu) + Powerful small states akin to the Juuko ones. This is where he establishes himself as the top dog without a doubt. This is the time period when he for sure become a Great General, as he was one when Kanmei and co went against Oukutsu.
"longest service record" - simply means the person who has been in military for the most time, not the oldest mf in the military. I see him as being somebody who joined the military even under the age of 10, a prodigy like no other (especially considering who his grandson was). I think he'll be younger than Renpa, around Tou's age or slightly older.
PROWESS AS A GENERAL:
KOUEN - RIBOKU Comparison:
As pointed out earlier in the historical timeline. I believe Hara has already set up Kouen's "xiongnu" equivalent or whatever you'd wanna call it, in comparison to Riboku, with the Baiyue people & Smaller states that Chu engulfed. Because we are to go by Bananji, Riboku has yet to face a threat as formidable as the Xiongnu. And as we know Riboku also had past experience as a soldier before going to Ganmon and had established himself as a general. So we could see a similar trajectory of Kouen establishing himself as a general in the Chu-Qin Wars, then then establishing himself as a Great General top 1 during his conquering of the East + dealing with the Baiyue people.
- Now Hara himself goes out of his way to drop this. You see Shouheikun and Ei Sei are discussing the threats that could stop them. The possibility of a coalition army is brought up.
Shouheikun then explains that another coalition won't happen, due to Shunshinkun (who possessed power rivaling a King) is dead & Riboku has been disgraced due to that failure. He tells everyone in the room that there is nobody in China who possesses the clout and prestige to lead another coalition.
He then states he would never allow such a thing to happen in the first place, due to them spreading out agents to disrupt relations between the states.
BUT right then and there Hara does something crucial, something very important for the future of the story. You see he has Shouheikun doubt his words. Shouheikun here thinks and then thinks to himself... ok maybe "Does not exist another figure with enough prestige and clout...." was an exaggeration. Why? Because to the mfin east is 1 figure whose true prowess they know very little of.
Now some fans have brought up that this refers to Ouken, especially after the following scene happened:
In that scene above Ouken says he coudl rally together a second coalition army and wipe Qin off the map for good. But the key part here is that he'd join forces with Zhao in order to rally the 2nd coalition army... why? Because Zhao has Riboku, someone who was earlier mentioned as one of the people capable of gathering a coalition, though now not having the prestige due to being disgraced from the 1st loss, but that could immediately change if backed by Ouken and Qi. Not to mention he's been King for years...literally one of the 7 most popular people in China, hard for that to be a mystery.
But the more crucial thing is, in order to gather and lead a coalition, one must have high level military prowess:
Gakuki - arguably the greatest general of all time in China's history in the Kingdom-verse
Riboku - Considered one of the big dogs of the era, after having taken down Ouki and the fraud Gekishin whose fake hype was also rivaling Ouki's with "hero of Yan".
Shunshinkun - the leader of the recent coalition, was stated to be one of the men who stand at the very peak of military officers in all of China, which was used as the justification for other GGs accepting him as the leader of the coalition.
So a great military leader is needed to actually gather up the coalition and keep it in check. Which is why it can't be Ouken who SHK is referring to, but a military officer. Which is also why Hara doesn't just show Qi as a whole, but a small part of Qi... and a HUGE part of Eastern Chu. And the mysterious figure that was connected to "EAST" earlier in the manga wasn't Ouken, but "The Conqueror of the East". So we have an entity who is indirectly being compared to the like of Riboku and Gakuki essentially... both of them being high level strategists. When you add on the fact he even advised Rein, the likelihood is that Kouen will be a high end strategist as well, Renpa for example is at 96 INTEL stat.. I can see Kouen being anywhere 96-99. .... or an instinctual monster of that caliber... or just a fucking insane Hybrid.
Power in Name:
Names carry a lot of symbolism in Kingdom, especially names related to power that are connected with places.
- Monsterous Bird of Qin: The name belonging to General Ouki who was the top combatant of Qin.
- Demon of Ganmon: The name belonging to Bananji who attains this title by making the Xiongnu fear his martial prowess.
- Tiger of Seika: The name belonging to Shibashou who attains this title by being the strongest in the Seika region, standing above extremely powerful combatants like Jiaga and Kansaro.
"Monsterous Bird"
"Demon"
"Tiger"
All of these symbolic words connected to power. Now in particular we have Tiger of Seika, and we see how powerful Shibashou is as a combatant. And his title is stemming from a region in Zhao.
We scale that "Tiger" title from a small, but powerful, region to an extremely powerful superstate that is constantly facing Xiongnu-level threats on its borders + the nation with the hardest requirements to climb up to a general. Where near all of its known generals are martial monsters, even the known top tier strategist Karin is presented as a big time Monster possessing high level martial might, then the likes of Man'U who owned Moubu, Sentou'un who was handling Rokuomi and Ranbihaku together at times.. For somebody to be labeled as the TIGER of such a powerful state... you can bet their martial prowess will be short of nothing but high end top tier.
First in Command of Military:
This right here is bloody insane. Karin who used to be just the 2nd-in-command of Chu Military was promoted to the position of Prime Minister, which was then compared to Shouheikun & Riboku:
Keep in mind, SHK & Riboku are leaders of their respective militaries as the prime ministers. But for Karin? NOPE. Kouen is still the leader of the Chu Military as the No.1, akin to how Gouhoumei is the Wei military leader as their No.1 Commander.
Imagine just the fucking prestige this dude must have in order to remain as the leader and symbol of Chu military, even after somebody like Karin is made into the Prime Minister and she stills remains the No.2 of the Chu military lmao. This dude without a single fucking doubt in my mind is going to be full 100 in leadership stat (just using this as a reference) akin to Yotanwa/Gakuki.
No why did I feel this is important? Because of mothafucking weight of a general. The amount of weight this dude will have is going to be absolutely absurd on top of his raw martial prowess. I'm telling y'all right now, y'all might call me crazy, wilding, etc... But with the combination of weight + base martial prowess... he will be THE entity that Shin will have to surpass in combat to become the strongest in China.
CONCLUSION:
So this is sort of my loose theory on Kouen, his rise + prediction of his general prowess based on the known information and references of other characters we have. He will be the general that on the battlefield will stand above Riboku, he won't be a superior entity than Riboku when you add in things like Prime Minister/COM responsibilities (which is where Karin/Rein come in).. But as a pure general he will be superior to Riboku, and in addition to the generals and entities of Chu...He will be BYFAR a bigger threat than Zhao has posed, hence why it will take a MUCH more powerful Qin force to take down Chu (Basically the Qin version of the Avengers is what I'm predicting for Chu's downfall).
Please post your opinion, agreements and disagreements!!
Kingdom timeline so far & Where Kouen fits in:
Conqueror of the East:
As we know he is renowned as the Conqueror of the East. Many assume that means he took part in the coalition against that superstate Qi. I however, simply disagree because the timeline and age for what he would be by the time the Chu invasion happens would be too insane. I do not see Hara giving us an out of prime Kouen for Chu. Which is what he would be were we to go with the assumption he was a big general during the coalition (so roughly somewhere in his 20s at minimum).. meaning about the time of the Chu invasion he'd be around 80 years old, which is simply unrealistic to me even by Kingdom standards for the role he's meant to play.
There is a time period that happens (in the kingdom timeline) from 280 BC (Gakuki retires and leaves to Zhao) to where we're introduced to Chu as the superstate in the coalition arc.
Post-Gakuki's retirement, Chu and Qin are the most powerful remaining states that were left. In 279, Qin takes away major land from the Chu (for comparison you can see in the KINGDOM manga when the story starts Chu's land went across the big river):
Then by 269BC, Qin took more of their land:
Then soon after Qin goes through the Chouhei shit, and King Sho dies, etc etc. As Kanmei and etc pointed Chu & Qin hadn't faced in the past 20 or so years.
The story then tells us that from the year 260-241 BC, Shunshinkun turned the state of Chu into a superstate by conquering the small states around them, which had powerful generals like Man'U and such. If you look in the maps above you'll see the area to the east of Chu was grayed out, as it wasn't part of any of the big 7 states, and even looking back at 300 BC there were even more grayed out areas. The Chu for hundreds of years weren't able to conquer that area, same for the Qi... implying there was a powerful kingdom or group of people that resided there. As you can see in the rough historical map below, there is a significant territorial gain made by Chu in the East. I believe this is what Hara will use for "Conqueror of the East". Because it is he who extends the Chu's lands to the East making it touch the seas... and size of that land being bigger than Wei & Han combined.
Now in the manga the map for Chu is considerably different presently pre-Juuko, some of those areas that Qin historically conquered is taken by Chu. I think there's like possibilities of Qin conquered those lands but weren't able to maintain them (due to King Sho's death) thus that area gave rise to minor states like Beki that Man'U is from... or the area wasn't fully conquered by Chu from the get go but minor states, thus those minor states rebelled back, which allowed the Chu to retake that area by conquering those areas thus avoiding a clash with the Qin... or Hakuki and co never made it to the capital in the manga-verse, but I doubt he'd remove such a huge feat:
Minor States:
We know there were other minor Kingdoms around Chu like Beki, that weren't conquered until Shunshinkun came in. And they held formidable generals like Sentou'un and Man'u, high level strategists like Juko'Ou.
The Baiyue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue
Though the manga has primarily focused on the Xiongnu as the powerful "barbarians", there is a group of people to the south of Chu that are damn near equally formidable. Looking at the panels below when they're mentioned, the first thing we see is them being compared to the Xiongnu. Now this isn't a specific region in the south of Chu, but across the southern border of Chu in general. We know Rinbukun specifically was able to climb to the rank of a General solely based on his time there. And in addition we're told that it is a land of endless battle. HISTORICALLY, after the unification it is said that Qin Shi Huang sent half a million people to conquer the Baiyue regions, and even lost the first invasion which forced him to send convicts to defend those battle lines. So these are a big enemy that Ei Sei will be dealing with post-Unification as well, similar to the Xiongnu situation with Mouten in the north.
Now Xiongnu are renowned for wanting to invade Zhao constantly, leading to regions like Ganmon. One would assume similar is the case for the Baiyue people given their comparison to the Xiongnu. And if that is the case, then it would be logical to assume that when Chu got fucked up by Hakuki and co, the threat on the southern Chu borders would also increase. This also gives Kouen another way to grow into top end power, by driving off potential Baiyue invasions, akin to Riboku driving off the Xiongnu invasions.
They will also likely be used as the reason for Kouen not being renowned like that in the Plains and only mentioned by the Chu generals.
Summary of the KOUEN timeline:
- Participates in the huge Qin vs Chu wars that happen between 280BC-260BC, rising to the rank of a General/Great General by the end of it. Which he had become a top tier general, I don't think he was the main dog of Chu by the end of it. So Great General could be a reach, but at the very least he was a general.
- From 260-245 or so, he conquers the Eastern (+ partially southern) area of China. Where he'd face the Baiyue people (could be akin to the Xiongnu or just a downgraded Xiongnu) + Powerful small states akin to the Juuko ones. This is where he establishes himself as the top dog without a doubt. This is the time period when he for sure become a Great General, as he was one when Kanmei and co went against Oukutsu.
"longest service record" - simply means the person who has been in military for the most time, not the oldest mf in the military. I see him as being somebody who joined the military even under the age of 10, a prodigy like no other (especially considering who his grandson was). I think he'll be younger than Renpa, around Tou's age or slightly older.
PROWESS AS A GENERAL:
KOUEN - RIBOKU Comparison:
As pointed out earlier in the historical timeline. I believe Hara has already set up Kouen's "xiongnu" equivalent or whatever you'd wanna call it, in comparison to Riboku, with the Baiyue people & Smaller states that Chu engulfed. Because we are to go by Bananji, Riboku has yet to face a threat as formidable as the Xiongnu. And as we know Riboku also had past experience as a soldier before going to Ganmon and had established himself as a general. So we could see a similar trajectory of Kouen establishing himself as a general in the Chu-Qin Wars, then then establishing himself as a Great General top 1 during his conquering of the East + dealing with the Baiyue people.
- Now Hara himself goes out of his way to drop this. You see Shouheikun and Ei Sei are discussing the threats that could stop them. The possibility of a coalition army is brought up.
Shouheikun then explains that another coalition won't happen, due to Shunshinkun (who possessed power rivaling a King) is dead & Riboku has been disgraced due to that failure. He tells everyone in the room that there is nobody in China who possesses the clout and prestige to lead another coalition.
He then states he would never allow such a thing to happen in the first place, due to them spreading out agents to disrupt relations between the states.
BUT right then and there Hara does something crucial, something very important for the future of the story. You see he has Shouheikun doubt his words. Shouheikun here thinks and then thinks to himself... ok maybe "Does not exist another figure with enough prestige and clout...." was an exaggeration. Why? Because to the mfin east is 1 figure whose true prowess they know very little of.
Now some fans have brought up that this refers to Ouken, especially after the following scene happened:
But the more crucial thing is, in order to gather and lead a coalition, one must have high level military prowess:
Gakuki - arguably the greatest general of all time in China's history in the Kingdom-verse
Riboku - Considered one of the big dogs of the era, after having taken down Ouki and the fraud Gekishin whose fake hype was also rivaling Ouki's with "hero of Yan".
Shunshinkun - the leader of the recent coalition, was stated to be one of the men who stand at the very peak of military officers in all of China, which was used as the justification for other GGs accepting him as the leader of the coalition.
So a great military leader is needed to actually gather up the coalition and keep it in check. Which is why it can't be Ouken who SHK is referring to, but a military officer. Which is also why Hara doesn't just show Qi as a whole, but a small part of Qi... and a HUGE part of Eastern Chu. And the mysterious figure that was connected to "EAST" earlier in the manga wasn't Ouken, but "The Conqueror of the East". So we have an entity who is indirectly being compared to the like of Riboku and Gakuki essentially... both of them being high level strategists. When you add on the fact he even advised Rein, the likelihood is that Kouen will be a high end strategist as well, Renpa for example is at 96 INTEL stat.. I can see Kouen being anywhere 96-99. .... or an instinctual monster of that caliber... or just a fucking insane Hybrid.
Power in Name:
Names carry a lot of symbolism in Kingdom, especially names related to power that are connected with places.
- Monsterous Bird of Qin: The name belonging to General Ouki who was the top combatant of Qin.
- Demon of Ganmon: The name belonging to Bananji who attains this title by making the Xiongnu fear his martial prowess.
- Tiger of Seika: The name belonging to Shibashou who attains this title by being the strongest in the Seika region, standing above extremely powerful combatants like Jiaga and Kansaro.
"Monsterous Bird"
"Demon"
"Tiger"
All of these symbolic words connected to power. Now in particular we have Tiger of Seika, and we see how powerful Shibashou is as a combatant. And his title is stemming from a region in Zhao.
We scale that "Tiger" title from a small, but powerful, region to an extremely powerful superstate that is constantly facing Xiongnu-level threats on its borders + the nation with the hardest requirements to climb up to a general. Where near all of its known generals are martial monsters, even the known top tier strategist Karin is presented as a big time Monster possessing high level martial might, then the likes of Man'U who owned Moubu, Sentou'un who was handling Rokuomi and Ranbihaku together at times.. For somebody to be labeled as the TIGER of such a powerful state... you can bet their martial prowess will be short of nothing but high end top tier.
First in Command of Military:
This right here is bloody insane. Karin who used to be just the 2nd-in-command of Chu Military was promoted to the position of Prime Minister, which was then compared to Shouheikun & Riboku:
Keep in mind, SHK & Riboku are leaders of their respective militaries as the prime ministers. But for Karin? NOPE. Kouen is still the leader of the Chu Military as the No.1, akin to how Gouhoumei is the Wei military leader as their No.1 Commander.
Imagine just the fucking prestige this dude must have in order to remain as the leader and symbol of Chu military, even after somebody like Karin is made into the Prime Minister and she stills remains the No.2 of the Chu military lmao. This dude without a single fucking doubt in my mind is going to be full 100 in leadership stat (just using this as a reference) akin to Yotanwa/Gakuki.
No why did I feel this is important? Because of mothafucking weight of a general. The amount of weight this dude will have is going to be absolutely absurd on top of his raw martial prowess. I'm telling y'all right now, y'all might call me crazy, wilding, etc... But with the combination of weight + base martial prowess... he will be THE entity that Shin will have to surpass in combat to become the strongest in China.
CONCLUSION:
So this is sort of my loose theory on Kouen, his rise + prediction of his general prowess based on the known information and references of other characters we have. He will be the general that on the battlefield will stand above Riboku, he won't be a superior entity than Riboku when you add in things like Prime Minister/COM responsibilities (which is where Karin/Rein come in).. But as a pure general he will be superior to Riboku, and in addition to the generals and entities of Chu...He will be BYFAR a bigger threat than Zhao has posed, hence why it will take a MUCH more powerful Qin force to take down Chu (Basically the Qin version of the Avengers is what I'm predicting for Chu's downfall).
Please post your opinion, agreements and disagreements!!
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