Powers & Abilities Toji vs Naobito and Ougi

[Light D Lamperouge]

She even gives off the same aura as him at this point.

That's not really a good argument. Yuji thought Yuta gave an aura like Gojo and then said no it's even creepier. We know Gojo smokes current Yuta, from Yuta's own words, and from Gege literally saying Gojo is the strongest multiple times, and moving Gojo from the plot because he is too strong while leaving Yuta to actually appear in the current plot.

Maki, maybe not totally equal but she's definitely near Toji's level right now imo.

I disagree. She's Toji in the making. Whilst Toji was born like that he grew through it from his earliest age and honed his skills. Maki has just now awakened. She's still got room to go and improve before she sniffs Toji.

Like let me give an example from One Piece. Luffy just unlocked what we call Adv COC. Roger and let's say Garp have been using it like that almost their entire lives. Put them in a ring, prime versions of them and Luffy's toast. Same thing here with Toji and Maki. I used Garp since he's basically like Luffy minus the df. But you get my point.

- She now has the same highly refined five senses that Toji had which let him sense curses.

They are not as refined as Toji's. Toji went his whole life using them. Maki had to rely on her glasses. She can now probably observe them but not as good as Toji.

- Her physicals should be the same as Toji now that her heavenly restriction is fully utilized and she has '0' cursed energy just like him.

I'd again argue that Toji has better physicals currently. Maki is not in her peak and has just now awakened. She will grow physically stronger, but for now Toji has the advantage.

- Her new weapon from Mai should be pretty OP. I mean, it has been given as a parting gift from a sibling in a shonen, lol.

Yeah the weapon should be powerful, but so are Toji's lol. Actually the weapon she's using is identical to the one Toji used vs Gojo.

Spoiler

Not only that but Toji has like his very own box of weapons he can store in the worm. He outclasses her there too.

As for the things that Toji probably outclasses her in, such as experience, skills and smartness are things that are relatively easier to overcome in comparison to the things mentioned above. The next arc should provide her with a good set of opponents to firmly match Toji by its end.

She's lacking in all departments compared to Toji imo. She will most likely reach Toji's level one day, but not now.

 

[Kromage911]

Toji still bodies her maki ain t got the skills L-kun

But she doesn't have the refined senses.

First, go and reread the entire manga. Can't debate with a guy who might've skipped simple parts of the story.

 

[Zowo]

But she doesn't have the refined senses.

First, go and reread the entire manga. Can't debate with a guy who might've skipped simple parts of the story.

she doesnt
why ignoring hte part where i said she gets bodied by toji L kun?

 

[Kromage911]

why ignoring hte part where i said she gets bodied by toji L kun?

That's an L, yes. Not equal, but still not as far as you might think.

she doesnt

But you still can't hold yours, lol.

That's not really a good argument. Yuji thought Yuta gave an aura like Gojo and then said no it's even creepier. We know Gojo smokes current Yuta, from Yuta's own words, and from Gege literally saying Gojo is the strongest multiple times, and moving Gojo from the plot because he is too strong while leaving Yuta to actually appear in the current plot.

I think Yuji thought that Yuta's aura was creepier than Gojo because he has more cursed energy and even that forms an aura kind of thing outside the body. I mean, I can't be sure but this is one aspect where Yuta outclasses Gojo.

I disagree. She's Toji in the making. Whilst Toji was born like that he grew through it from his earliest age and honed his skills. Maki has just now awakened. She's still got room to go and improve before she sniffs Toji.

I mean Maki neg-diffed Ougi, an experienced grade 1 sorcerer. Not saying Toji can't replicate it any time he wants but I don't see much room for growth in Maki. She's already one of the strongest sorcerers among the ones who are active.

They are not as refined as Toji's. Toji went his whole life using them. Maki had to rely on her glasses. She can now probably observe them but not as good as Toji.

Eh, we can't be so sure. Not probably, now she can observe them. There was no mention if his senses improved as he grew iirc. It could be that Maki's senses reached that level immediately due to her becoming someone with 0 cursed energy and Toji was always like that. But of course, you could be right here too. That makes sense too.

I'd again argue that Toji has better physicals currently. Maki is not in her peak and has just now awakened. She will grow physically stronger, but for now Toji has the advantage.

Again, we can't be so sure but yes, this makes sense.

Yeah the weapon should be powerful, but so are Toji's lol. Actually the weapon she's using is identical to the one Toji used vs Gojo.

Spoiler

Not only that but Toji has like his very own box of weapons he can store in the worm. He outclasses her there too.

True, he does have an advantage there. But we still gotta learn just how powerful Maki's new weapon is too.

She's lacking in all departments compared to Toji imo. She will most likely reach Toji's level one day, but not now.

That one day should be at the end of the arc only tho imo. There isn't that much to grow when you're neg-diffing Grade 1 sorcerers, lol.

 

[Zowo]

That's an L, yes. Not equal, but still not as far as you might think.


But you still can't hold yours, lol.


I think Yuji thought that Yuta's aura was creepier than Gojo because he has more cursed energy and even that forms an aura kind of thing outside the body. I mean, I can't be sure but this is one aspect where Yuta outclasses Gojo.


I mean Maki neg-diffed Ougi, an experienced grade 1 sorcerer. Not saying Toji can't replicate it any time he wants but I don't see much room for growth in Maki. She's already one of the strongest sorcerers among the ones who are active.


Eh, we can't be so sure. Not probably, now she can observe them. There was no mention if his senses improved as he grew iirc. It could be that Maki's senses reached that level immediately due to her becoming someone with 0 cursed energy and Toji was always like that. But of course, you could be right here too. That makes sense too.


Again, we can't be so sure but yes, this makes sense.


True, he does have an advantage there. But we still gotta learn just how powerful Maki's new weapon is too.


That one day should be at the end of the arc only tho imo. There isn't that much to grow when you're neg-diffing Grade 1 sorcerers, lol.

L-kun she has it but not on toji s level

 

[Kromage911]

L-kun she has it but not on toji s level

But you said earlier that she doesn't have it. Why not accept that first?

 

[Zowo]

But you said earlier that she doesn't have it. Why not accept that first?

i accep it i was just playing

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

I think Yuji thought that Yuta's aura was creepier than Gojo because he has more cursed energy and even that forms an aura kind of thing outside the body. I mean, I can't be sure but this is one aspect where Yuta outclasses Gojo.

Yeah that but that kinda is what I am saying. He gives off a similar aura or a creepier aura but Gojo is still > him. Reminding someone of someone else does not mean they are equal. I took that scene as yeah she's becoming like Toji.

I mean Maki neg-diffed Ougi, an experienced grade 1 sorcerer. Not saying Toji can't replicate it any time he wants but I don't see much room for growth in Maki. She's already one of the strongest sorcerers among the ones who are active.

Maki's gonna grow tho. It's common logic. She's gonna get stronger, reach her peak, refine her senses, master her combat with her new weapon, etc. There's plenty of room for her, and then she'll catch up to Toji or might even surpass him.

There was no mention if his senses improved as he grew iirc. It could be that Maki's senses reached that level immediately due to her becoming someone with 0 cursed energy and Toji was always like that. But of course, you could be right here too. That makes sense too.

Again it's common sense. You have to hone your skills to be able to do so. Like take for example us as humans lol. We are all, well most of us, born with the ability to smell, see, etc. But we can refine those abilities of ours to a level where people can tell people by smell, can tell ingredients that were used in a dish from the smell of it, and so on. It's only logical that Toji refined his senses as he grew older and faced more opponents.

Again, we can't be so sure but yes, this makes sense.

Aye.

True, he does have an advantage there. But we still gotta learn just how powerful Maki's new weapon is too.

Yeah Maki's weapon is gonna be powerful, but Toji has a seemingly identical weapon as well as more weapons at his disposal and a history of fighting with them. Maki just got hers.

That one day should be at the end of the arc only tho imo. There isn't that much to grow when you're neg-diffing Grade 1 sorcerers, lol.

Maybe. We'll see lol. I think she has room to improve and is not on Toji's level. She will be one day but not now.

 

[RayanOO]

Am I the only one who think the 3 Zenin have a chance against Toji ?

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Am I the only one who think the 3 Zenin have a chance against Toji ?

Apparently yes lmao. Why do you think so?


Like I think the argument is pretty clear for most people. Maki just negged Ougi. Toji is > Maki. Toji makes Naobito shit himself. Naoya is weaker than Naobito and maybe even than Ougi. At best he'd be as strong or slightly slightly stronger than Ougi.

 

[RayanOO]

Toji makes Naobito shit himself.

I don’t really remember that, Naobito was really surprised and wary but shit himself I don’t know. Ougi has a real PTSD but Naobito was calmer. Except if I remember wrong.

Like I think the argument is pretty clear for most people. Maki just negged Ougi. Toji is > Maki. Toji makes Naobito shit himself. Naoya is weaker than Naobito and maybe even than Ougi. At best he'd be as strong or slightly slightly stronger than Ougi.

Just take Maki. I agree that current Maki is still inferior to Toji. But against Naoya Ougi and Naobito she would lose for me.

Toji is a master of his craft but he lacks versatility. He is the best CQC user but still a cqc user.

Naobito and Naoya need one touch with the hand to activate the 24 frames technique and freeze Toji for one second. during that one second toji can be hurt.

And Naobito was quite hyped. He carried the team against Dagon, dagon focused 70% of his domain power for him and "only" 30% for Nanami. This maybe doesn't mean that Naobito was 2X+ stronger than Nanami but this clearly mean he was clearly stronger. And he seemed strong enough to fight jogo with two arms and no domain. Hd the title of fastest sorcerer and was the head of the Zenin clan for a long time.

Naobito had good to great portrayal.

I don't imagine Toji low diffing him. Toji seems of course stronger but wont erase him.

A lot of them will die or lose limbs but I think they can create openings to deal real damages.

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

@Shuyaku explain yourself.

I don’t really remember that, Naobito was really surprised and wary but shit himself I don’t know. Ougi has a real PTSD but Naobito was calmer. Except if I remember wrong.

Naobito was shievering in the same manner Ougi was when he saw Toji

Spoiler

Yeah Ougi looked more scared, I'll give you that, but Naobito was definitely shook and afraid too.

Just take Maki. I agree that current Maki is still inferior to Toji. But against Naoya Ougi and Naobito she would lose for me.

Maki losing to them has no reflection on Toji tho. Toji is superior to Maki across all boards. Physique, combat, skill, brains, weaponry, tactics, etc.

What we can infer is that anything Maki can do Toji can do better.


Maki walked past Ougi and cut off his head. Nonchalantly. Toji can off him as easily as he wants.
Ougi is literally a non factor in this battle.

Toji is a master of his craft but he lacks versatility. He is the best CQC user but still a cqc user.

All of these guys fight in close quarter combat. They have to get close to Toji to utilize their techniques. And Toji isn't going down easily even if he gets hit. He continued fighting after being hit by Red, and was conscious for a bit even after purple deleted his body and arm. Fact of the matter is that Toji's raw speed is amazing. Dagon was mesmerized by how fast the guy is. He legit walked on water. Dagon also was perplexed by his power.

And Naobito was quite hyped. He carried the team against Dagon, dagon focused 70% of his domain power for him and "only" 30% for Nanami. This maybe doesn't mean that Naobito was 2X+ stronger than Nanami but this clearly mean he was clearly stronger. And he seemed strong enough to fight jogo with two arms and no domain. Hd the title of fastest sorcerer and was the head of the Zenin clan for a long time.

Yeah Naobito has good hype but it pales in comparison to Toji's. I also disagree that he'd be able to put up a fight against Jogo, even without the domain. Jogo was clearly much stronger.

Fact of the matter, Naobito wasn't even stronger than Megumi, who Toji toyed with. Whilst fighting solely on instinct and baring his fangs at the strongest around Toji went for Megumi over Naobito. And we saw how easily Toji dealt with Megumi.

Spoiler

Moreover, Nanami whilst being surrounded by Megumi and Naobito and Maki, and while having two people who are seemingly stronger than him on his side, Megumi and Naobito, was worried about taking on Toji and calling it a big problem.

Spoiler

There's no way to justify the three beating Toji imo. Ougi is very well implied to be very close to Naobito's level, and best case scenario Naoya will be a bit stronger than Ougi or maybe even Naobito, but these guys aren't really putting down Toji.

 

[MonsterKaido]

R1 - Toji

Not sure about R2 leaning towards toji for now

 

[RayanOO]

Naobito was shievering in the same manner Ougi was when he saw Toji

Wouldn’t you be a bit shook if you saw your long dead nephew coming back just like that as a fighting puppet ? I don’t think it implies Naobito was really scared of Toji the past real one.

Naobito after that was clearly surprised but nothing huge

Naobito even helped Toji to finish Dagon faster

Yeah Naobito has good hype but it pales in comparison to Toji's. I also disagree that he'd be able to put up a fight against Jogo, even without the domain. Jogo was clearly much stronger.

Naobito was the fastest sorcerer (without Gojo). Jogo had likely more destructive power (without domain) but speed wise they were either equal or Naobito was faster. Even with one arm it seems Jogo was a bit surprised by Naobito speed and even Dagon said that Naobito seemed faster than even Jogo.

Without domain Naobito was playing ping pong with Dagon. Dagon didn’t hesitate to pull out his domain immediately because he knew he was outmatched. In the first stage of the fight Naobito was really impressive (outpacing Nanami, saving Maki, creating windows for other and stomping Dagon).

And even if Dagon was inferior to Jogo and co we are still talking about a really strong special cursed spirit.

And in the domain he used flowing blossom emotion to react on touch to the death fishes. Dagon needed to surprise punch him for his domain to hurt Naobito (and Dagon punch didn’t do much to Naobito).

And Toji isn't going down easily even if he gets hit

I agree they will need to capitalize on every opportunity to land solid blows and give their all : black flash or other thing. They won’t have a lot of them. And Toji can take a hit. Even 3 vs 1 it would be very very hard and I can see 2/3 it proved how strong this fucker his.

He continued fighting after being hit by Red,

Jogo also tanked a red (from a much stronger Gojo) and he was durability wise weaker than Hanami or Dagon.

Red is a strong attack but nothing amazingly strong. Gojo has much stronger attacks when he is serious : he erased Hanami from existence with pressuring her, he has purple, and his max physical strength with curse energy, even blue seems deadlier. Red is not weak at all but it is tankable.

Fact of the matter, Naobito wasn't even stronger than Megumi, who Toji toyed with. Whilst fighting solely on instinct and baring his fangs at the strongest around Toji went for Megumi over Naobito. And we saw how easily Toji dealt with Megumi.

We already talked about that and I think Tojo went for Megumi because he is his son. Why did Toji end up in this exact spot with Dagon and all when you have guys like Mahito, Fake geto, Jogo around. And the whole point was to show that Toji was much stronger than the curse technique who revived him. Toji was also more conscious each second.

And he toyed with a tired Megumi without Domain. Naobito is quite stronger than that Megumi.

Moreover, Nanami whilst being surrounded by Megumi and Naobito and Maki, and while having two people who are seemingly stronger than him on his side, Megumi and Naobito, was worried about taking on Toji and calling it a big problem.

He just witnessed Toji flexing on Dagon, megumi is at his limit, Naobito lost an arm and Himself an eye. Even if Toji was « just » Dagon level he would have been a huge problem.


Just an extra thought here : Ougi PTSD was really strong fighting Maki when he felt Toji and as such he fought in a stupid manner. I don’t know if something would have changed but he was a lot more careful when Maki first fight him: In their first encounter he used « falling blossom emotion » to cover himself with curse energy and react to anything Maki could throw at him on contact.
in the second fight he went for the all in immediately and was reckless as fuck.

 

[U c 4 up da idly]

Toji wins, Ougi is a non factor he just gets stomped

 

[Zowo]

Toji low diffs 1v3 he plays with them

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Wouldn’t you be a bit shook if you saw your long dead nephew coming back just like that as a fighting puppet ? I don’t think it implies Naobito was really scared of Toji the past real one.

Naobito was clearly portrayed as being wary of Toji and being out of his league, in a negative sense.

Naobito even helped Toji to finish Dagon faster

Yeah but Toji did the most work lol. Naobito only stopped him from fleeing once while Toji was crushing Dagon. Dagon was getting his ass blasted by Toji all throughout the fight. Toji dealt with Dagon's hardest shikigami easily. Naobito's role in Dagon's defeat is as minimal as it gets.

Jogo had likely more destructive power (without domain) but speed wise they were either equal or Naobito was faster.

Jogo definitely had more destructive power lol. Speed wise they might have been equal but not only can Jogo instantly destroy him when he connects a hit, Naobito would struggle to put down Jogo. The fight wouldn't have been that difficult for Jogo at all.

Without domain Naobito was playing ping pong with Dagon. Dagon didn’t hesitate to pull out his domain immediately because he knew he was outmatched. In the first stage of the fight Naobito was really impressive (outpacing Nanami, saving Maki, creating windows for other and stomping Dagon).

And even if Dagon was inferior to Jogo and co we are still talking about a really strong special cursed spirit.

It's not an if, it's a definite lol. Jogo was on another level to Dagon. Dagon was clearly the weakest of the curses while Jogo the strongest.

As impressive as Naobito was, and he was, these are different leagues and levels.

Dagon was also fighting in a battle with multiple opponents. Naobito wouldn't be able to perform as good as he did in a 1 on 1. Naobito noted how even 2 grade 1 sorceres cannot exorcise Dagon

Spoiler

How they need to attack Dagon with speed all the time and not give him the chance to use his techs or it's over

Spoiler

Jogo also tanked a red (from a much stronger Gojo) and he was durability wise weaker than Hanami or Dagon.

Red is a strong attack but nothing amazingly strong. Gojo has much stronger attacks when he is serious : he erased Hanami from existence with pressuring her, he has purple, and his max physical strength with curse energy, even blue seems deadlier. Red is not weak at all but it is tankable.

Yeah but you are comparing curses who not only have better durability but also cursed energy to protect themselves. Toji is a human without curse techniques. His durability, endurance etc are all things that are his own, and not augmented by cursed energy.

Comparing a human to someone like curses isn't a good argument imo.

We already talked about that and I think Tojo went for Megumi because he is his son.

We did and I disagree. Your argument relies on the fact that you are calling the narrator a liar. Like legit that lol. There's no need to confuse us like that. Just look at the panel.

Spoiler

Gege chose to repeat this once again after saying it in chapter 110

Spoiler

Clearly emphasizing the idea of what Toji was doing. And it's clearly seen. Toji shows up and starts demolishing Dagon, the strongest guy there, after Dagon is done, Toji goes for the next strongest, which is Megumi.

There's no argument around that. Megumi was clearly the strongest around which is why Toji went for him.

Why did Toji end up in this exact spot with Dagon and all when you have guys like Mahito, Fake geto, Jogo around.

Because Dagon was the nearest strongest person to Toji.

As I said there's no argument around the fact that the narrator informed us twice of what Toji was doing and that Megumi was chosen due to his strength.

And he toyed with a tired Megumi without Domain. Naobito is quite stronger than that Megumi.

I mean Toji just finished whopping a curse and demolishing a jujutsu sorcerer prior to it lol. Also Megumi said that even if his domain was working it wasn't strong enough to stop Toji

Spoiler

Megumi wasn't even slightly a challenge for Toji, he himself even knew it

Spoiler

and as I said a few times he was the strongest guy around.

He just witnessed Toji flexing on Dagon, megumi is at his limit, Naobito lost an arm and Himself an eye. Even if Toji was « just » Dagon level he would have been a huge problem.

Let me ask you this way. Do you think Ogi Naobito and Naoya are a stronger team than a team of Naobito Nanami Maki and Megumi?




Either way, as I said, saying Toji loses to them is unfounded.

Just an extra thought here : Ougi PTSD was really strong fighting Maki when he felt Toji and as such he fought in a stupid manner. I don’t know if something would have changed but he was a lot more careful when Maki first fight him: In their first encounter he used « falling blossom emotion » to cover himself with curse energy and react to anything Maki could throw at him on contact.
in the second fight he went for the all in immediately and was reckless as fuck.

And what do you think would happen if he were to fight the real Toji? He'd probably pass out from fear alone.

The portrayal was quite clear there as well. Maki was vastly above Ogi from that moment on.

 

[Zowo]

@RayanOO why u capping?
megumi>naobito was clear
toji went for the strongest just like light showed u not because it s his son or was dagon his son to

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

or was dagon his son to

Lmao. Ngl, this made me lol for real.

 

[Cinera]

Toji with the playful cloud.

vs

The Zen'in brothers Naobito and Ougi

ROUND 2 ADD NAOYA TO THE TEAM.

Who wins??

Spoiler

@Akai2 @Luslec @EtenBoby @Dark Hound @Kromage911 @yj @BangMi @Clickbait @Tekashi69420 @Jodie @Marimo_420 @Titty Croissant @SinOfGreed @Constantine @Tris @Zowo @Kiwipom @Jaguark101 @ReggieZoldyck21 @Gol D. Roger @Missy @Cinera @SHIHI @Dark Admiral @GrandmasterChef Zonji @Power @Melontonin @Arara @symbiote @Jorden625 @LANJI CUCKSMOKE @Flower @Juliet @Light D Lamperouge @Rivaille @Tobi @RayanOO @hedera__helix @Kvothe Kingkiller @RobertoTheOharaSurvivor @RedNight @Akaikari @Titty Croissant @Seth @MonsterKaido etc etc @Dragomir

I'm not up to date, but forcing Young Gojo to evolve >>>>>>>>>>> whatever the non Megumi Zen'in can offer.