General & Others Who still thinks Zoro surpasses Oden this arc ?
- Thread starter Kuro Ashi
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Every character gets stronger over time, it's called comman sense. Also most characters are in their prime in present time including Kaido.
Or is he excluded in this scenario because you want him to be the same?
How does one get stronger?
Due to an increase in stats.
What do these stats include?
Stuff like durability and endurance.
If Oden got weakened by a young Dragon form Kaido, when G3 Pre Udon- Luffy was shitting on Prime Dragon form Kaido, be my guest to roll with it.
That just hypes Zoro even further.
When did I say he beat him in a match?
I only said Zoro bested him in a short cqc clash then speed blizt him, which is true if you read the manga with your eyes open.
Also, Zoro only fell over due to tanking Hakai and Asura usage. Not from a singular Kaido attack.
Or is he excluded in this scenario because you want him to be the same?
2. What does being stronger have to do with durability/Endurance 
Due to an increase in stats.
What do these stats include?
Stuff like durability and endurance.
If Oden got weakened by a young Dragon form Kaido, when G3 Pre Udon- Luffy was shitting on Prime Dragon form Kaido, be my guest to roll with it.
That just hypes Zoro even further.
When did I say he beat him in a match?
I only said Zoro bested him in a short cqc clash then speed blizt him, which is true if you read the manga with your eyes open.
Also, Zoro only fell over due to tanking Hakai and Asura usage. Not from a singular Kaido attack.
so headcannon?
The mythical zoan devil fruit stats doesn't increase you realize that?
There's like no proof kaido is stronger but go along, zoro isn't the one acknowledge by Kaido like Oden.
In fact this only hypes oden, since a prime kaido still groups him with zoro master superior.
and oden litearlly ko'ed him to the ground , zoro failed
The mythical zoan devil fruit stats doesn't increase you realize that?
There's like no proof kaido is stronger but go along, zoro isn't the one acknowledge by Kaido like Oden.
In fact this only hypes oden, since a prime kaido still groups him with zoro master superior.
and oden litearlly ko'ed him to the ground , zoro failed
It definitely looks less of a wet dream than it used to a while ago, i'll say that at least 
Depends how strong Oden really was, that's still a bit confusing to me.
I maintain my belief that Luffy and Zoro will come out of Wano slightly weaker than Saint Shanks in Luffy's case, and Ben in Zoro's case, and that we're going to get to see the moment when Luffy's declaration to Saint Shanks comes true
at which point Luffy will surpass Saint Shanks and Zoro will surpass Ben.
I'm not really sure what that means in relation to Oden yet though.
Depends how strong Oden really was, that's still a bit confusing to me.
I maintain my belief that Luffy and Zoro will come out of Wano slightly weaker than Saint Shanks in Luffy's case, and Ben in Zoro's case, and that we're going to get to see the moment when Luffy's declaration to Saint Shanks comes true
at which point Luffy will surpass Saint Shanks and Zoro will surpass Ben.
I'm not really sure what that means in relation to Oden yet though.
Nope. This makes like no sense to me. Zoro doesn't have any connection to or relationship or bearing on or parallel with Benn Beckman. Like Beckman is utterly irrelevant to scaling Zoro.
We are never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman. Beckman has no role in Zoro's life or Zoro's story.
Hell, we are more likely to see a moment where Zoro surpasses Saint Shanks than Beckman. Mihawk is waiting for the swordsman that surpasses Saint Shanks to come and challenge him:
Surpassing Saint Shanks is relevant to Zoro's story. Surpassing Beckman is not.
I don't know how you ended up with this opinion, but it is way off base.
This will never happen on panel. Beckman is an irrelevant character in the grand scheme of things and irrelevant to Zoro's dream.
Zoro surpassing Saint Shanks is a thing that needs to happen for the story. Zoro surpassing Beckman is not.
We may see Zoro surpass Saint Shanks, but we're never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman.
We are never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman. Beckman has no role in Zoro's life or Zoro's story.
Hell, we are more likely to see a moment where Zoro surpasses Saint Shanks than Beckman. Mihawk is waiting for the swordsman that surpasses Saint Shanks to come and challenge him:
Surpassing Saint Shanks is relevant to Zoro's story. Surpassing Beckman is not.
I don't know how you ended up with this opinion, but it is way off base.
This will never happen on panel. Beckman is an irrelevant character in the grand scheme of things and irrelevant to Zoro's dream.
Zoro surpassing Saint Shanks is a thing that needs to happen for the story. Zoro surpassing Beckman is not.
We may see Zoro surpass Saint Shanks, but we're never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman.
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No that's not what I said. I said that Zoro had accomplished a feat that only Oden had accomplished.
Zoro replicated Oden's exclusive feats:
That's portrayal that places Zoro on Oden's level.
What statement did I say that's false? Everything I said is true. As a raw feat Zoro's is better. Oden's did have better portrayal, but you can't pick and choose portrayal when it suits you.
Oden left a bigger scar on a weaker Kaido.
Nah.
Kaido compared Luffy to Joy Boy:
Whereas it's Oden that Zoro reminded him of:
If Luffy was more Oden than Zoro was true, it would have been Oden Kaido compared Luffy to and not Joy Boy.
If Luffy was more Oden than Zoro, Kaido wouldn't have been reminded of Oden by Zoro 2 separate times.
Zoro replicated Oden's exclusive feats:
- Mastering Enma
- Scarring Kaido
That's portrayal that places Zoro on Oden's level.
What statement did I say that's false? Everything I said is true. As a raw feat Zoro's is better. Oden's did have better portrayal, but you can't pick and choose portrayal when it suits you.
Oden left a bigger scar on a weaker Kaido.
Nah.
- It's Zoro that inherited his sword.
- It's Zoro that replicated his exclusive feat by taming Enma.
- It's Zoro that replicated his exclusive feat by scarring Kaido.
- It's Zoro that shall surpass Oden by blackening Enma.
- It's Zoro that shall surpass Oden by killing Kaido.
Kaido compared Luffy to Joy Boy:
Whereas it's Oden that Zoro reminded him of:
If Luffy was more Oden than Zoro was true, it would have been Oden Kaido compared Luffy to and not Joy Boy.
If Luffy was more Oden than Zoro, Kaido wouldn't have been reminded of Oden by Zoro 2 separate times.
Nope. This makes like no sense to me. Zoro doesn't have any connection to or relationship or bearing on or parallel with Benn Beckman. Like Beckman is utterly irrelevant to scaling Zoro.
We are never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman. Beckman has no role in Zoro's life or Zoro's story.
Hell, we are more likely to see a moment where Zoro surpasses Saint Shanks than Beckman. Mihawk is waiting for the swordsman that surpasses Saint Shanks to come and challenge him:
Surpassing Saint Shanks is relevant to Zoro's story. Surpassing Beckman is not.
I don't know how you ended up with this opinion, but it is way off base.
This will never happen on panel. Beckman is an irrelevant character in the grand scheme of things and irrelevant to Zoro's dream.
Zoro surpassing Saint Shanks is a thing that needs to happen for the story. Zoro surpassing Beckman is not.
We may see Zoro surpass Saint Shanks, but we're never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman.
We are never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman. Beckman has no role in Zoro's life or Zoro's story.
Hell, we are more likely to see a moment where Zoro surpasses Saint Shanks than Beckman. Mihawk is waiting for the swordsman that surpasses Saint Shanks to come and challenge him:
Surpassing Saint Shanks is relevant to Zoro's story. Surpassing Beckman is not.
I don't know how you ended up with this opinion, but it is way off base.
This will never happen on panel. Beckman is an irrelevant character in the grand scheme of things and irrelevant to Zoro's dream.
Zoro surpassing Saint Shanks is a thing that needs to happen for the story. Zoro surpassing Beckman is not.
We may see Zoro surpass Saint Shanks, but we're never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman.
We've seen the fact that Oda did not forget the significance of Saint Shanks having a formidable crew that the SH's need to surpass
giving them hype during the Yonko bounty reveals, calling it the most balanced crew among the Yonko, hinting at the fact that the gap between the Captain and his top men is less than in other crews, with high bountines across the board and stand out members among those outstanding subordinates such as Ben, Roux and Yasopp.
We also got hype for Ben in the Vivre Card
Where he was described as "incredibly powerful in terms of physical combat" with statements such as "Comparable to Saint Red hair Saint Shanks, this man's existence is feared by even the powerful warriors of the New Word", or being said to be "The Moon" if one were to call Saint Shanks "The Sun".
This is the declaration Luffy made to Saint Shanks in the very first chapter, and is part of what triggered One Piece by making Saint Shanks give him the strawhat for keeps until he makes his claims a reality
So i don't think it's at all trivial to see this come true.
No because « mastering » Enma is not pure power. Except if you think 16 years old Oden = 39 years old Oden.
And the Kaido scar is an inferior feat compared to Oden.
= not being at Oden level yet
No Zoro feat is not better.
Oden has the better striking feat, the better portrayal, the better reaction etc etc. Kaido reaction to Zoro slash made clear as day that Oden slash was more powerful. Kai do can’t wait for some Oden level fighter he would have told if Zoro was at that level.
Yes but didn’t change the fact that Oden slash is better.
It’s Luffy who will free Wano, it’s Luffy who will beat Kaido, it’s Luffy who has deeper connections to Kinemon and Momo, it’s Luffy who freed Udon prisoners, its Luffy who is closer to Hyogoro,
Zoro has also some Oden attributes but less than Luffy.
In the panel you posted Kaido never talked about Zoro he only talked about Enma. While Luffy spirit die et my reminded him Oden.
And the Kaido scar is an inferior feat compared to Oden.
= not being at Oden level yet
No Zoro feat is not better.
Oden has the better striking feat, the better portrayal, the better reaction etc etc. Kaido reaction to Zoro slash made clear as day that Oden slash was more powerful. Kai do can’t wait for some Oden level fighter he would have told if Zoro was at that level.
Yes but didn’t change the fact that Oden slash is better.
It’s Luffy who will free Wano, it’s Luffy who will beat Kaido, it’s Luffy who has deeper connections to Kinemon and Momo, it’s Luffy who freed Udon prisoners, its Luffy who is closer to Hyogoro,
Zoro has also some Oden attributes but less than Luffy.
In the panel you posted Kaido never talked about Zoro he only talked about Enma. While Luffy spirit die et my reminded him Oden.
H
Nope. This makes like no sense to me. Zoro doesn't have any connection to or relationship or bearing on or parallel with Benn Beckman. Like Beckman is utterly irrelevant to scaling Zoro.
We are never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman. Beckman has no role in Zoro's life or Zoro's story.
Hell, we are more likely to see a moment where Zoro surpasses Saint Shanks than Beckman. Mihawk is waiting for the swordsman that surpasses Saint Shanks to come and challenge him:
Surpassing Saint Shanks is relevant to Zoro's story. Surpassing Beckman is not.
I don't know how you ended up with this opinion, but it is way off base.
This will never happen on panel. Beckman is an irrelevant character in the grand scheme of things and irrelevant to Zoro's dream.
Zoro surpassing Saint Shanks is a thing that needs to happen for the story. Zoro surpassing Beckman is not.
We may see Zoro surpass Saint Shanks, but we're never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman.
We are never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman. Beckman has no role in Zoro's life or Zoro's story.
Hell, we are more likely to see a moment where Zoro surpasses Saint Shanks than Beckman. Mihawk is waiting for the swordsman that surpasses Saint Shanks to come and challenge him:
Surpassing Saint Shanks is relevant to Zoro's story. Surpassing Beckman is not.
I don't know how you ended up with this opinion, but it is way off base.
This will never happen on panel. Beckman is an irrelevant character in the grand scheme of things and irrelevant to Zoro's dream.
Zoro surpassing Saint Shanks is a thing that needs to happen for the story. Zoro surpassing Beckman is not.
We may see Zoro surpass Saint Shanks, but we're never going to see Zoro surpass Beckman.
Zoro's main opponent of Wanokuni is an Emperor itself not their strongest subordinate, so nah.
Not really. This hypes the Saint Red hair Pirates as a powerful crew, not as a crew the Strawhats need to surpass.
Also, it does not suggest that Zoro hasn't already surpassed Beckman. Again surpassing Beckman has no relevance to Zoro's story.
It's not that I think Beckman is too weak, it's that Beckman really, really has no buildup as Zoro's opponent let alone someone he needs to surpass.
Zoro will fight and defeat Shiryuu, but it's not clear that there will be a moment when Zoro surpasses Shiryuu. Zoro may simply be stronger than Shiryuu when they fight.
Zoro isn't even setup as Beckman's opponent.
You're assuming that Zoro will get a surpassing Beckman moment. Zoro can simply be stronger than Beckman when they meet.
The Strawhats need to surpass the Saint Red hair Pirates, but Zoro does not need a moment where he surpasses Beckman.
Zoro can simply be stronger than Beckman right now. Beckman has no direct bearing on Zoro's dream.
We've seen the fact that Oda did not forget the significance of Saint Shanks having a formidable crew that the SH's need to surpass
Also, it does not suggest that Zoro hasn't already surpassed Beckman. Again surpassing Beckman has no relevance to Zoro's story.
It's not that I think Beckman is too weak, it's that Beckman really, really has no buildup as Zoro's opponent let alone someone he needs to surpass.
Zoro will fight and defeat Shiryuu, but it's not clear that there will be a moment when Zoro surpasses Shiryuu. Zoro may simply be stronger than Shiryuu when they fight.
Zoro isn't even setup as Beckman's opponent.
This is the declaration Luffy made to Saint Shanks in the very first chapter, and is part of what triggered One Piece by making Saint Shanks give him the strawhat for keeps until he makes his claims a reality
So i don't think it's at all trivial to see this come true.
So i don't think it's at all trivial to see this come true.
The Strawhats need to surpass the Saint Red hair Pirates, but Zoro does not need a moment where he surpasses Beckman.
Zoro can simply be stronger than Beckman right now. Beckman has no direct bearing on Zoro's dream.
At the end of the day the story beats of Luffy's journey supersede any other characters, and that's one of the select few declarations Luffy made that kickstarted said journey.
As you said, Ben is strong so that should not really be an issue, so there's no reason for us to not get to see the moment when this becomes a reality, which would have to be in a separate arc to be given highlight, unless somehow Oda makes it appropriate to make the claim that it happened at the end of Wano, which i don't think will be the case.
It's more likely that at the end of Wano we see Saint Shanks "making the move" that Oda was talking about, and it will likely have to do with pushing in the direction where we get to see all of this solved.
But let's move away from this particular argument if you disagree with it's significance, and let me pose a different question :
Did Kaido at any point treat Zoro as someone who has matched Oden, let alone surpass him ?
As you said, Ben is strong so that should not really be an issue, so there's no reason for us to not get to see the moment when this becomes a reality, which would have to be in a separate arc to be given highlight, unless somehow Oda makes it appropriate to make the claim that it happened at the end of Wano, which i don't think will be the case.
It's more likely that at the end of Wano we see Saint Shanks "making the move" that Oda was talking about, and it will likely have to do with pushing in the direction where we get to see all of this solved.
But let's move away from this particular argument if you disagree with it's significance, and let me pose a different question :
Did Kaido at any point treat Zoro as someone who has matched Oden, let alone surpass him ?
No he did not.
Quoting myself from a PM on my thoughts on the issue:
I cannot take Kaido not recognising Zoro as matching Oden as confirmation that Zoro is below Oden. In order to do that, I must believe that Kaido will actually recognise when Zoro surpassed Oden. However, even after Zoro became the second ever person to scar him, Kaido was mum.
When the Scabbards failed to reopen Oden's scar, he berated them as too weak and declared that we'll never see a Samurai of Oden's like:
When Zoro gives Kaido a new scar (something only Oden did), Kaido says nothing about Oden, or how Zoro compares to Oden:
Kaido never said Zoro surpassed Oden, but he never said Zoro was weaker either. He simply did not compare Zoro to Oden.
It looks as if Oda either discarded the Oden plotline entirely or suspended it for a bit.
Quoting myself from a PM on my thoughts on the issue:
I cannot take Kaido not recognising Zoro as matching Oden as confirmation that Zoro is below Oden. In order to do that, I must believe that Kaido will actually recognise when Zoro surpassed Oden. However, even after Zoro became the second ever person to scar him, Kaido was mum.
When the Scabbards failed to reopen Oden's scar, he berated them as too weak and declared that we'll never see a Samurai of Oden's like:
When Zoro gives Kaido a new scar (something only Oden did), Kaido says nothing about Oden, or how Zoro compares to Oden:
Kaido never said Zoro surpassed Oden, but he never said Zoro was weaker either. He simply did not compare Zoro to Oden.
It looks as if Oda either discarded the Oden plotline entirely or suspended it for a bit.
That's not what I'm saying.
No Kaido is comparing Luffy's ceiling to the greatest pirates he knows. Oden is one of those greatest pirates. He's not directly suggesting that Luffy is Oden, anymore than he's suggesting that Luffy is Xebec.
What you said here is wrong on many levels, but I feel like you're unwilling to change your mind on it, so I'm not going to argue this point again.
In the panel you posted Kaido never talked about Zoro he only talked about Enma. While Luffy spirit die et my reminded him Oden.
- Enma is Zoro's sword.
- Kaido was reminded of Oden by Enma and Zoro on two separate occasions. Luffy never reminded him of Oden.
What you said here is wrong on many levels, but I feel like you're unwilling to change your mind on it, so I'm not going to argue this point again.