General & Others Zoro and Sanji, Wings of Pirate King

I don't have anything against Sanji lol, I'm indifferent to him. If anything you're projecting because you're a Sanji fan.

Anyways Luffy doesn't biologically have any wings so you're reaching when you randomly assume that Robin is only referring to two crew members. Each member of the crew is equally special and they will all play a role in helping Luffy become the Pirate King.

If you want to praise Sanji, my advice would be to focus on his feats agansit Queen because so far Sanji is doing really well. But trying to force this narrative that the wings line is only referring to Sanji and someone else is a reach lmao.
The line is said about Sanji.

It's a reach to just extend it to everyone else basically making it meaningless in the context of BM finding him disapointing for someone who has the second highest bounty in the crew because he asked for Robins help.

Robin is basically countering that by saying that he is indeed exceptional in their crew and not at all disapointing. That him asking for help is a honor for her, since he's one of the Pirate Kings Wings. She's not.
 
The line is said about Sanji.

It's a reach to just extend it to everyone else basically making it meaningless in the context of BM finding him disapointing for someone who has the second highest bounty in the crew because he asked for Robins health.

Robin is basically countering that by saying that he is indeed exceptional in their crew and not at all disapointing. That him asking for help is a honor for her, since he's one of the Pirate Kings Wings. She's not.
Maybe you're right.

I already thought highly of Sanji's combat strength so it doesn't matter much to me what Robin meant tbh lol.
 
Maybe you're right.

I already thought highly of Sanji's combat strength so it doesn't matter much to me what Robin meant tbh lol.
I edited that first post before you quoted to say that this wasn't really aimed at you, but the notion itself that a few others have spread.

The natural way to look at this is a Pair of Wings, both in the way that the wings usually come in a pair, as well as in the fact that then it functions as the praise intended by Robin to counter BM's critique aimed at Sanji as one of the SH's strongest members.
 
I didn’t especially take it as Robin being sycophantic to Sanji and saying how wonderful and amazing he is compared to her.

Sanji relying on Robin is so important to Robin because of what she went through, where she had no one to rely on and no one to rely on her. Now she has a group of people who will do that for her, so she doesn’t care what Black Maria says about him.

That’s why in the pages beforehand Black Maria is talking about how Robin must know her friends will sell her out, trying to make her think that is what Sanji did, Robin is a burden to her crew and if Sanji‘s the second highest bounty, the rest must be even more pathetic.

Whereas Robin (and the readers) know this is rubbish, because we saw the Strawhats literally go to war with the world for Robin.

Then the wings stuff is a final “fuck you” to Black Maria, Robin saying that the guy you’re trying to insult will reach heights that her and her crew will never achieve
 

Adam 🍎

Pretty Boy
Since this entire topic is based on story and narrative, I have a question, though. Do you believe Sanji is on par with Zoro on narrative importance? We're not talking about practical stuff (cooking for survivability), because then Nami is much more useful than either anyway. I'm bringing this up narratively, story-wise.
Think of it like this.

Imagine a bird with 2 wings and one wing isn't equal as the other. Bird loses balance, can't fly as good, it steers off.
Both wings need to be equal in order for the bird to fly properly
 
Think of it like this.

Imagine a bird with 2 wings and one wing isn't equal as the other. Bird loses balance, can't fly as good, it steers off.
Both wings need to be equal in order for the bird to fly properly
That's not the analogy. You're taking something symbolic and turning it into what's written literally.

Birds have dominant wings, too, just like people have dominant hands. When you're doing something with both hands- such as lifting or this or that, then both hands clearly exert equal pressure and one doesn't matter over the other, same as birds flying. But point remains that, narratively in a story, a right hand will ALWAYS be more significant than left hand. Not to say left isn't incredibly important, either.

And it is shown throughout the series. I'm not even going to bring up combat-based stuff because that's irrelevant to the narrative I'm speaking off:

  • Zoro is the one who takes Luffy's pain. Sanji aims for it alongside Zoro- as Luffy's another arm/wing, but ultimately it's the right hand that takes it. They were not written to share it equally like every other shonen or story would do to show narrative equality. They're both shown as the final two pillars, yet Zoro is the one that stands at the end.

  • Zoro is made part of Worst Generation; the group portrayed as spearheads and leaders of the new era for hundreds of chapters now. Sanji wasn't included.

  • Roger has Gold, Silver and Copper to represent M3 parallels, as well. A silver will always be > copper.

  • Most parallels of significant enemy/deuteragonist groups include Luffy/Zoro as parallels. Be it Smoker/Tashigi, Crocodile/Mr-1, Coby/Helmeppo, Garp/Bogard, Kidd/Killer etc, etc.

  • Zoro being the ONLY one referred to as right hand of Luffy over and over by different characters, etc. Canonical materials such as VC put even more emphasis on it.

  • Zoro getting CoC, being a Conqueror. He had fuck-ton of foreshadowing regarding it, as well.

And many more, honestly.

That does not mean parallels between Zoro and Sanji don't exist. They do- as they are Luffy's main two pillars of support, so of course they'll have multiple parallels of such. But Zoro has his own exclusive narrative significance and importance that puts him a step above Sanji in terms of both crew and specially story-wise.

Again, this is not me shitting on Sanji. Sanji is definitely part of Monster Trio. Sanji is definitely very strong, and Sanji is definitely very important to Luffy, and the crew as a whole ahead of everyone that's not the Captain or Zoro.

But ultimately, he is the left hand of Luffy and among his two biggest pillars of support alongside Zoro.

And Zoro will always be the right hand of Luffy, and the last standing pillar, as evident in TB. And story-wise, narratively, Zoro has significantly more going for him with CoC and WG, too.

And some "wings" comment that also existed in SBS years ago wouldn't change that lol. Wings is symbolic to represent Zoro/Sanji as two main men for Luffy. No need to take something symbolic LITERALLY (bird can't fly w/ heavier wing wat) all while ignoring the narrative that has been built up again, and again, and again for years now.
 

Adam 🍎

Pretty Boy
Birds have dominant wings
IDK about this.

When you're doing something with both hands- such as lifting or this or that, then both hands clearly exert equal pressure and one doesn't matter over the other, same as birds flying. But point remains that, narratively, a right hand will ALWAYS be more significant than left hand.
Birds don't grab things with wings. wings only serve to fly

I get yo point, but IMO both Zoro and Sanji are equally important but for different reasons. Remove one and balance falls off
 
IDK about this.


Birds don't grab things with wings. wings only serve to fly

I get yo point, but IMO both Zoro and Sanji are equally important but for different reasons. Remove one and balance falls off
Again, don't take things too literally. Wings signifies pillars of support- these two are the main guys who will fly Luffy. It's same as saying "These two are Luffy's hands". Oda doesn't say it with mindset of what happens when one wing is heavier. Again, wings can be dominant wings but all that is irrelevant detail to something symbolic.

Practically speaking, they're both nowhere near the most important- specially compared to Nami and Robin and whatnot. They're not required for Luffy's dream, either, again... practically speaking. Though it's clear that crew would fall apart if they just vanish due to how characters are presented. But I'm not talking about that. It was mostly narrative and story stuff.

Narratively, it's fairly clear that Zoro is the one with most importance given to the story as well as within the crew by the author.

Crew-wise, Oda made it blatant during TB scene. Zoro/Sanji being the last ones standing, and then Zoro ultimately shouldering it all.

Story-wise, well... there's WG, there's CoC, and a fuck-ton more going on that's exclusive to Zoro within Luffy's crewmmates.

But all that aside, ignoring years worth of narrative importance given to Zoro that clearly wasn't given to other crew-mates at all for the sake of taking something symbolic literally is bad. It's about just as bad as ignoring the clear-cut years worth of narrative importance given to Zoro AND Sanji that clearly wasn't given to other characters at all.

Oda wrote multiple parallels of Zoro and Sanji standing out. And he also wrote multiple portrayals and narrative of Zoro exclusively standing out among the crew, as well. But, yeah. Pretty much what Kuroashi said.
 

Adam 🍎

Pretty Boy
Again, don't take things too literally. Wings signifies pillars of support- these two are the main guys who will fly Luffy. It's same as saying "These two are Luffy's hands". Oda doesn't say it with mindset of what happens when one wing is heavier. Again, wings can be dominant wings but all that is irrelevant detail to something symbolic.

Practically speaking, they're both nowhere near the most important- specially compared to Nami and Robin and whatnot. They're not required for Luffy's dream, either.

But I wasn't talking practically.

Narratively, it's fairly clear that Zoro is the one with most importance given to the story as well as within the crew by the author.

Crew-wise, Oda made it blatant during TB scene. Zoro/Sanji being the last ones standing, and then Zoro ultimately shouldering it all.

Story-wise, well... there's WG, there's CoC, and a fuck-ton more going on that's exclusive to Zoro within Luffy's crewmmates.

But all that aside, ignoring years worth of narrative importance given to Zoro that clearly wasn't given to other characters at all for the sake of taking something symbolic literally is bad. It's about just as bad as ignoring the clear-cut years worth of narrative importance given to Zoro AND Sanji that clearly wasn't given to other characters at all.

Oda wrote multiple parallels of Zoro and Sanji standing out. And he also wrote multiple portrayals and narrative of Zoro exclusively standing out among the crew, as well. But, yeah. Pretty much what Kuroashi said.
I don't negate Zoros role in the crew or his importance. But IMO if you remove Zoro from the crew the crew would fall off, same if you remove Sanji.

Remember in Water 7 when Usopp rebelled? It was Sanji and Zoro that put the crew in order and smacking the captain if needed.

While yes, Zoro might have importance overall it doesn't change the fact that removal of either of them breaks the crew
 
I don't negate Zoros role in the crew or his importance. But IMO if you remove Zoro from the crew the crew would fall off, same if you remove Sanji.

Remember in Water 7 when Usopp rebelled? It was Sanji and Zoro that put the crew in order and smacking the captain if needed.

While yes, Zoro might have importance overall it doesn't change the fact that removal of either of them breaks the crew
My point was pretty much just about the overall narrative importance among crew or story.

But other than that, well, yeah. Luffy DID say he can't become the PK without Sanji for a reason, and he IS portrayed as one of the two biggest supports for Luffy for a reason. Though would add someone like Nami to that one the crew would likely shatter without, as well, regardless of her job as navigator.
 
At least on this forum the "Sanji is just a cook" narrative is spammed in countless threads to argue against anything related to the prospect of future development from him in terms of overall strength, future match-ups, or stuff like Haki.

Can the Left Hand Man of the Pirate King become a Top tier ? Just a cook bro.
Can the Left Hand Man of the Pirate King fight a Top tier EoS ? Just a cook bro.
Can the Left Hand Man of the Pirate King unlock CoC at some point ? Just a cook

A lot of weight comes with accepting Sanji as one of the Pirate King's two main dudes, one of the two main pillars supporting the man who has conquered the seas.

So then it's more difficult to shit on Sanji's potential in comparison to Mama's boy Katakuri or Random Navy leader Chinjao that Sai a Grand Fleet captain will probably match at some point.
Being called a hand necessarily reflective of strength. Sanji's importance (his best qualities) to Luffy is not his strength.

So being left hand or wing doesn't mean you should fight a top tier nor be a top tier nor have COC.
That is where the faulty reasoning comes from
 
Being called a hand necessarily reflective of strength. Sanji's importance (his best qualities) to Luffy is not his strength.

So being left hand or wing doesn't mean you should fight a top tier nor be a top tier nor have COC.
That is where the faulty reasoning comes from
By what standard do you limit one of the Pirate King's top two men to not be a top tier, or fight one or have CoC ?

Heck, a Pirate King and crew that will surpass even Rogers and go beyond their achievements.

Being one of the Pirate Kings Wings is a good answer to "what's special about Sanji", or "he's just a cook he doesn't need to be that strong".

This crew will declare war to the world, after defeating Blackbeard and his elite crew. Luffy, Zoro and Sanji will be crazy strong, and even the "mid level" SH's will fit withing the Yonko Commander strength range by EoS. The M3 will be Top Tiers, and fight Top Tiers, which is why as early as Wano Zoro and Sanji are allowed to defeat top two Yonko Commanders.
 
By what standard do you limit one of the Pirate King's top two men to not be a top tier, or fight one or have CoC ?

Heck, a Pirate King and crew that will surpass even Rogers and go beyond their achievements.

Being one of the Pirate Kings Wings is a good answer to "what's special about Sanji", or "he's just a cook he doesn't need to be that strong".

This crew will declare war to the world, after defeating Blackbeard and his elite crew. Luffy, Zoro and Sanji will be crazy strong, and even the "mid level" SH's will fit withing the Yonko Commander strength range by EoS. The M3 will be Top Tiers, and fight Top Tiers, which is why as early as Wano Zoro and Sanji are allowed to defeat top two Yonko Commanders.
Don’t even try with Geo he’s delusional and thinks EOS Sanji will be at most Marco level
 
Don’t even try with Geo he’s delusional and thinks EOS Sanji will be at most Marco level
Sanji will be around Marco level when we move out of Wano.

Queen, King and Marco are not far off from eachother, which is why it was so taxing for Marco to attempt to take on both King and Queen and he got noticeably exhausted/depleted a significant amount of his regen in a short amount of time.

I'd say Marco is the strongest of the three, and the gap between him and King is similar to the one between King and Queen.
 
Sanji will be around Marco level when we move out of Wano.

Queen, King and Marco are not far off from eachother, which is why it was so taxing for Marco to attempt to take on both King and Queen and he got noticeably exhausted/depleted a significant amount of his regen.

I'd say Marco is the strongest of the three, and the gap between him and King is similar to the one between King and Queen.
I think Marco would high diff one of them one on one. I don’t think there’s much of a gap between king and queen right now.
 
By what standard do you limit one of the Pirate King's top two men to not be a top tier, or fight one or have CoC ?

Heck, a Pirate King and crew that will surpass even Rogers and go beyond their achievements.

Being one of the Pirate Kings Wings is a good answer to "what's special about Sanji", or "he's just a cook he doesn't need to be that strong".

This crew will declare war to the world, after defeating Blackbeard and his elite crew. Luffy, Zoro and Sanji will be crazy strong, and even the "mid level" SH's will fit withing the Yonko Commander strength range by EoS. The M3 will be Top Tiers, and fight Top Tiers, which is why as early as Wano Zoro and Sanji are allowed to defeat top two Yonko Commanders.
Those are a bunch of headcanon.

You are literally trying to powerscale wings. It is an answer to Sanji's importance. It is headcanon to equate it to scaling Sanji's strength

Seems you've already finished writing the manga even before the author.
 
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