General & Others Luffys dream > Zoros dream? dream on!
- Thread starter trav
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Hmm didn't expected such a long reply 
But sure i'd answer
Bege literally planned an assassination on Big Mom, which if it succeeded would have greatly increased his infamy in the news, and was actually close to succeeding despite being vastly inferior to her, so while it wouldn't make him stronger than Whitebeard, it would increase his infamy
A level above to me means being able to win without being pushed to your absolute limits, so somewhere like high diff. And currently it does look like a high diff difference, but if it was mid diff it wouldn't surprise me either. It could depend on the way Oden vs Kaido fight goes. But i see that we both agree on Roger and Whitebeard being higher than the rest, so ultimately then i don't see the point of the rest of your post if you agree that Luffy's goal(Pirate King Roger) is higher than the current top tiers Mihawk is included in. And the logic you apply to Zoro can also be applied to Luffy after achieving his goal, which will then go back to square one. Ultimately then it doesn't really contradict the logic of Luffy's dream being superior to Zoro's dream. Regardless, i'd continue to reply
This is all true, but you're ommiting a few things i'd like to clarify beforehand.
- Power-level wise it doesn't matter that Roger was weaker when he became Pirate king due to his sickness. We know for a fact that at Roger's peak, he was equal to Whitebeard, so the pirate king power-lvl still stands. Whether he actually became pirate king later through illness or not is less relevant
It was just a final accomplishment in Roger's life before dying, with Oda taking advantage of this to continue to portray Roger and Whitebeard as equals.
That's why he decided to make Roger the pirate king, but by establishing Whitebeard as the one who helped him in becoming the pirate king(gifting the only crewmate with the ability to read Road Poneglyphs).
In the end, Roger and Whitebeard are the peak of one piece, parallel that Luffy and Blackbeard aim at surpassing, with Roger symbolically gaining the pirate king title that Luffy will eventually take for himself. That's all there is to it
- About Roger's journey to become pirate king, i'd say that what you omit is the fact that this flashback was made from Oden's perspective. What i mean by this is that we didn't see the entirety of Roger's journey but we know for a fact he was considered the strongest pirate at his peak, with only having Whitebeard as his equal.
But regardless of this, there have been few hints left showing that Roger did prove his strength
> We know Shiki acknowledged his strength after having history of battles with him, with even Sengoku knowing Roger would beat him in a fight
And Shiki was basically an equivalent to what a current yonko is, portrayed as a threat great enough both Prime Garp and Prime Sengoku decided to tag-team him, with the battle lasting long enough to destroy half marineford. During the yonko presentation bounties however, they were the focus, hence Shiki and the others weren't as highlighted, especially since he disappeared in time due to laying low
But there is no indication the current yonko are any stronger than him. Infact he had the largest fleet at the time. Now you're probably going to tell me that the 20years gap was during the timeskip/talk me about movie Shiki, but movie is non canon, with Indigo saying "at least 20years", and with Oda leaving hints of Shiki here and there, he could still use this plot to make him come back somehow
During Rocks' era, all of them were much younger. Even Whitebeard was referred as young Whitebeard. which his tales in his youth being portrayed similar to current Weevil's
So all of them weren't at their peak at that point(38 years ago). It was the point of that remark, but we know for a fact at least that Big Mom was already a yonko at least 20years ago
And at Roger's peak, he only had one equal(Whitebeard) against whom he also got multiple fights before
And even while old and sick, having territorial clashes with the great Whitebeard(placed on a higher pedestal again) were part of the yonko infamy
Yet the current yonko were still portrayed as silver medalists even comparatively to that Whitebeard
Everyone wanted his seat
> Kaido(known for multiple captures and defeats) was aiming at taking advantage of Whitebeard being busy by MF war to try to kill him
> Shanks himself acknowledged Whitebeard's seat on top of other top tiers during the discussion on moby dick
Note his words carefully. He first says Blackbeard ultimately will seek the top, then adds eventually he'd EVEN come to steal YOUR position!!
> Big Mom herself was thinking the same(placing Whitebeard on a higher pedestal)
> Blackbeard was looking up to him more than anybody and was talking as if prime Whitebeard could have succeded in saving Ace
Other people were also thinking the war against multiple top tiers was debatable
And Pirate King Roger was equal to this man in his prime.
Pretty much says it all
But sure i'd answerBege literally planned an assassination on Big Mom, which if it succeeded would have greatly increased his infamy in the news, and was actually close to succeeding despite being vastly inferior to her, so while it wouldn't make him stronger than Whitebeard, it would increase his infamy
A level above to me means being able to win without being pushed to your absolute limits, so somewhere like high diff. And currently it does look like a high diff difference, but if it was mid diff it wouldn't surprise me either. It could depend on the way Oden vs Kaido fight goes. But i see that we both agree on Roger and Whitebeard being higher than the rest, so ultimately then i don't see the point of the rest of your post if you agree that Luffy's goal(Pirate King Roger) is higher than the current top tiers Mihawk is included in. And the logic you apply to Zoro can also be applied to Luffy after achieving his goal, which will then go back to square one. Ultimately then it doesn't really contradict the logic of Luffy's dream being superior to Zoro's dream. Regardless, i'd continue to reply
And why is the pirate king known as such? We actually got an answer to that recently.
As it's clearly visible in the panel above, Roger was crowned Pirate King because he was the first ever to complete a full circumnavigation of the globe. And how did Roger achieve that? Well, firstly he borrowed a crewmate from his biggest rival WB, in fact he was begging for it.
From Roger's own words he was certain that he could only reach the final island with Oden. Without having Oden, he as he himself implies wouldn't have been able to find the final island, and thus wouldn't have been crowned the PK. Furthermore, he was given two Road Poneglyphs by the Minks and Oden
Stole one from Linlin
No implication of a fight between them.
Got one from his friends the fishman
Exactly, Whitebeard could have been the PK whenever he wanted to, because Roger offered to tell him how to get there. However, would WB going there in any way make him stronger? No it wouldn't. What's more, we can infer that by the time Roger became the PK his health deteriorated more and more
which would logically make him weaker than he was, and would thus result in WB being stronger, even by a hair.
And why aren't the Yonko able to conquer the seas completely? Because there's 4 of them, 4 extremely powerful individuals interested in the same thing, becoming PK, besides maybe Shanks, who is in it to preserve balance. Kaido and Linlin each have a road poneglyph of their own. During Roger's time Kaido and Linlin were nothing like they are now
WB wasn't interested in it at all
and his other big rival was defeated via the effort of a mutual cooperation with Garp
That's how Roger became the PK.
Got one from his friends the fishman
Exactly, Whitebeard could have been the PK whenever he wanted to, because Roger offered to tell him how to get there. However, would WB going there in any way make him stronger? No it wouldn't. What's more, we can infer that by the time Roger became the PK his health deteriorated more and more
And why aren't the Yonko able to conquer the seas completely? Because there's 4 of them, 4 extremely powerful individuals interested in the same thing, becoming PK, besides maybe Shanks, who is in it to preserve balance. Kaido and Linlin each have a road poneglyph of their own. During Roger's time Kaido and Linlin were nothing like they are now
- Power-level wise it doesn't matter that Roger was weaker when he became Pirate king due to his sickness. We know for a fact that at Roger's peak, he was equal to Whitebeard, so the pirate king power-lvl still stands. Whether he actually became pirate king later through illness or not is less relevant
It was just a final accomplishment in Roger's life before dying, with Oda taking advantage of this to continue to portray Roger and Whitebeard as equals.
That's why he decided to make Roger the pirate king, but by establishing Whitebeard as the one who helped him in becoming the pirate king(gifting the only crewmate with the ability to read Road Poneglyphs).
In the end, Roger and Whitebeard are the peak of one piece, parallel that Luffy and Blackbeard aim at surpassing, with Roger symbolically gaining the pirate king title that Luffy will eventually take for himself. That's all there is to it
- About Roger's journey to become pirate king, i'd say that what you omit is the fact that this flashback was made from Oden's perspective. What i mean by this is that we didn't see the entirety of Roger's journey but we know for a fact he was considered the strongest pirate at his peak, with only having Whitebeard as his equal.
But regardless of this, there have been few hints left showing that Roger did prove his strength
> We know Shiki acknowledged his strength after having history of battles with him, with even Sengoku knowing Roger would beat him in a fight
And Shiki was basically an equivalent to what a current yonko is, portrayed as a threat great enough both Prime Garp and Prime Sengoku decided to tag-team him, with the battle lasting long enough to destroy half marineford. During the yonko presentation bounties however, they were the focus, hence Shiki and the others weren't as highlighted, especially since he disappeared in time due to laying low
But there is no indication the current yonko are any stronger than him. Infact he had the largest fleet at the time. Now you're probably going to tell me that the 20years gap was during the timeskip/talk me about movie Shiki, but movie is non canon, with Indigo saying "at least 20years", and with Oda leaving hints of Shiki here and there, he could still use this plot to make him come back somehow
During Rocks' era, all of them were much younger. Even Whitebeard was referred as young Whitebeard. which his tales in his youth being portrayed similar to current Weevil's
So all of them weren't at their peak at that point(38 years ago). It was the point of that remark, but we know for a fact at least that Big Mom was already a yonko at least 20years ago
And at Roger's peak, he only had one equal(Whitebeard) against whom he also got multiple fights before
And even while old and sick, having territorial clashes with the great Whitebeard(placed on a higher pedestal again) were part of the yonko infamy
Yet the current yonko were still portrayed as silver medalists even comparatively to that Whitebeard
Everyone wanted his seat
> Kaido(known for multiple captures and defeats) was aiming at taking advantage of Whitebeard being busy by MF war to try to kill him
> Shanks himself acknowledged Whitebeard's seat on top of other top tiers during the discussion on moby dick
> Big Mom herself was thinking the same(placing Whitebeard on a higher pedestal)
> Blackbeard was looking up to him more than anybody and was talking as if prime Whitebeard could have succeded in saving Ace
Other people were also thinking the war against multiple top tiers was debatable
And Pirate King Roger was equal to this man in his prime.
Pretty much says it all
The only time Oda has put the two against each other, plot elements were needed to portray Luffy as equal. Fact. 
WB holding his DF back. What is Roger holding back? His Hakiman abilities? His sniper skills?
WB holding his DF back. What is Roger holding back? His Hakiman abilities? His sniper skills?
And I didn't manage to see the plot elements required to make weapon less luffy equal to 3 swords style zoro.
So Zoro puts luffy and his dreams to become pirate king above his own
Mihawk acknowledges the pirate king is above him
The yonko realize that their silver medalist
The marines and world government put roger over every pirate
The world's strongest man whitebeard was the only man to be considered equal to roger in power
But nah wss is just as important and impressive....
Mihawk acknowledges the pirate king is above him
The yonko realize that their silver medalist
The marines and world government put roger over every pirate
The world's strongest man whitebeard was the only man to be considered equal to roger in power
But nah wss is just as important and impressive....
Lol. Someone got hurt I see... Still blabbering my name in here...
Now Roger begged WB for Oden is an issue. Roger could never borrow Oden if he lost to WB in that fight. In the end they decided that they couldn't beat each other and it ended in a draw.
If Roger wasn't as strong as WB, then he couldn't borrow Oden, and then he couldn't be the PK.
If Roger wasn't as strong as WB, then he couldn't beat his greatest enemy, who was Xebec, and Xebec would be ruling the world instead.
It's the same with Shiki's fleet, if he couldn't survive Shiki's fleet it would be over for him.
The main point was Roger's power. Like it or not. There is a reason why countless people says that but some Admiral and Zoro fans don't understand it for some reason in order to wank Mihawk and the Admirals.
PK level = Being at Prime WB's level. That's far above of Mihawk and the Admirals. There is a reason why almost everyone says this ; Buggy, Rayleigh, Chinjao, Big mom etc. etc. but some people don't have the logic to understand it.
Now Roger begged WB for Oden is an issue. Roger could never borrow Oden if he lost to WB in that fight. In the end they decided that they couldn't beat each other and it ended in a draw.
If Roger wasn't as strong as WB, then he couldn't borrow Oden, and then he couldn't be the PK.
If Roger wasn't as strong as WB, then he couldn't beat his greatest enemy, who was Xebec, and Xebec would be ruling the world instead.
It's the same with Shiki's fleet, if he couldn't survive Shiki's fleet it would be over for him.
The main point was Roger's power. Like it or not. There is a reason why countless people says that but some Admiral and Zoro fans don't understand it for some reason in order to wank Mihawk and the Admirals.
PK level = Being at Prime WB's level. That's far above of Mihawk and the Admirals. There is a reason why almost everyone says this ; Buggy, Rayleigh, Chinjao, Big mom etc. etc. but some people don't have the logic to understand it.
