Questions & Mysteries If Sanji will never get CoC

[mrtsrdr]

His debut arc kind of goes out of its way to point out the mindset difference between him and Zoro/Luffy.

First of all, before I point them out, do note that I'm not saying that these are most important thing or primary requirement for CoC. Hell, we don't even know what they are. But I'm pointing out how those two were set apart from Sanji in the factor of their conviction, will and pride.

Additionally, I do think Sanji understood where they come from eventually. But stuff like this is part of who you are- it comes from get-go, and isn't something that's taught. Both Luffy and Zoro were like this even as kids, and it's an inherit trait that's carried on- much like what's described as CoC.

When Zoro points out his ambition, Sanji is the first to hop on and try to diminish it saying it's only asking for death:

Spoiler

Later on when Zoro literally chooses to die instead of backing off against Mihawk, Sanji straight up doesn't even understand why:

Spoiler

And even screams at Zoro to live, even if it means abandoning and giving up on his ambitions:

Spoiler

Later on, we see literally same qualities being mentioned in Luffy from Zeff, while Sanji listens intently:

Spoiler

Note that this doesn't just apply to ambitions, but convictions in general- yet Sanji doesn't understand that concept, still, and is visibly speechless at Judge's explanation:

Spoiler

Later on, Sanji even laments on what Zeff said, and thinks of both Zoro and Luffy:

Spoiler

Even if he understood later on, it's clear that Sanji's concept of sheer, never-back-down conviction was not even close to Zoro or Luffy's. He didn't even understand it at first, or why they did what they did until Zeff explained it- and though he did realize later on, it won't randomly give him those traits.

Also, there's some sort of implication in WCI, too:

Spoiler

Luffy seems to agree with most of this stuff and considers it good, which it is.

Having those "useless" emotions that cause him to protect others isn't a bad thing. And there's nothing wrong even if he's a Germa failure or can't use his skin as shield. Or if he's unfit of a soldier. To Luffy, and in general, those things don't make Sanji a better person, so it's all good.

But Luffy doesn't particularly disagree with the notion of Sanji having a weak mind or lack of pride.

Again, you're free to disagree and think Luffy interpreted as weak mind in regards to being emotionless or something. And the pride referred to here specifically means some bad-people stuck-up pride. And that's okay. This was a very small and least relevant part of my post anyway.

Lame . So Lame.

 

[phatltse62882]

Yeah he will get it because he is the Prince of Germa, and a Prince will be a King in the future and the gift for becoming a King is CoC. But I am still happy if Sanji doesnt get it.
He loves Women and doest want to hurt them in anyway.

 

[Chrono]

His debut arc kind of goes out of its way to point out the mindset difference between him and Zoro/Luffy.

First of all, before I point them out, do note that I'm not saying that these are most important thing or primary requirement for CoC. Hell, we don't even know what they are. But I'm pointing out how those two were set apart from Sanji in the factor of their conviction, will and pride.

Additionally, I do think Sanji understood where they come from eventually. But stuff like this is part of who you are- it comes from get-go, and isn't something that's taught. Both Luffy and Zoro were like this even as kids, and it's an inherit trait that's carried on- much like what's described as CoC.

When Zoro points out his ambition, Sanji is the first to hop on and try to diminish it saying it's only asking for death:

Spoiler

Later on when Zoro literally chooses to die instead of backing off against Mihawk, Sanji straight up doesn't even understand why:

Spoiler

And even screams at Zoro to live, even if it means abandoning and giving up on his ambitions:

Spoiler

Later on, we see literally same qualities being mentioned in Luffy from Zeff, while Sanji listens intently:

Spoiler

Note that this doesn't just apply to ambitions, but convictions in general- yet Sanji doesn't understand that concept, still, and is visibly speechless at Judge's explanation:

Spoiler

Later on, Sanji even laments on what Zeff said, and thinks of both Zoro and Luffy:

Spoiler

Even if he understood later on, it's clear that Sanji's concept of sheer, never-back-down conviction was not even close to Zoro or Luffy's. He didn't even understand it at first, or why they did what they did until Zeff explained it- and though he did realize later on, it won't randomly give him those traits.

Also, there's some sort of implication in WCI, too:

Spoiler

Luffy seems to agree with most of this stuff and considers it good, which it is.

Having those "useless" emotions that cause him to protect others isn't a bad thing. And there's nothing wrong even if he's a Germa failure or can't use his skin as shield. Or if he's unfit of a soldier. To Luffy, and in general, those things don't make Sanji a better person, so it's all good.

But Luffy doesn't particularly disagree with the notion of Sanji having a weak mind or lack of pride.

Again, you're free to disagree and think Luffy interpreted as weak mind in regards to being emotionless or something. And the pride referred to here specifically means some bad-people stuck-up pride. And that's okay. This was a very small and least relevant part of my post anyway.

Go re-read Sanji's first backstory. He was exactly like Zoro and Luffy. He lost his conviction, when he gave up his dreams for Zeff. Even Zeff said he was stifling his spear of conviction.

Sanji lost himself because the debt he owed. But deep down hes exactly like Zoro and Luffy. Its been lamented many times throughout the story. Even in this arc itself.

The point of the Baratie arc was for Sanji to find himself, stop stifling his spear for Zeff and let go of the debt he owes. Thats the reason for those flashbacks of Luffy and Zoro.

 

[Dark Knight Sanji]

I was just about to write the same thing that Zeff tells Sanji that he also has a the same spear of conviction that he holds back. 8 year old Sanji was willing to die for his dream. Even when he faced Kuma, Sanji chastised Zoro for abandoning his dream and stepped in to take on the sacrifice instead. This notion that Sanji isn't strong willed is ridiculously stupid. Does it mean that he will definitely get CoC? No. But to Chinjao who lost all hope after he couldn't get his treasure had CoC so I don't see how that has anything to do with getting it.

Also Sanji's convictions are what drive him more than any other character, to the point of absolute delusion. He will feed his enemies and won't hit a women even if it kills him. That isn't a weak mind at all!

 

[Raiden7]

Sanji can't have CoC right now because he is still undeniably restraining himself.

Plus we still don't know everything about Sora's drug and we still haven't seen yet Sanji's dark side. No way Oda put an hint like that for us to not be used in the future. There will be something like an internal struggle for Sanji to not tranform into an emotionless monster and to get out of that state he will use CoC, which is an ability he has right now but it's like dormant.

 

[Bil02]

Robin is there too but we know she doesn't have coc either.

 

[Broreo]

Seems like Oda go a different route with Sanji.
He gave sanji a mythical zoan df without any drawbacks.
It's not like it's impossible based on sanji's character, rather oda tried something different in order to make him unique.

Mythical Zoan hito hito no mi model: sex offender

 

[Shanal]

Go re-read Sanji's first backstory. He was exactly like Zoro and Luffy. He lost his conviction, when he gave up his dreams for Zeff. Even Zeff said he was stifling his spear of conviction.

Sanji lost himself because the debt he owed. But deep down hes exactly like Zoro and Luffy. Its been lamented many times throughout the story. Even in this arc itself.

The point of the Baratie arc was for Sanji to find himself, stop stifling his spear for Zeff and let go of the debt he owes. Thats the reason for those flashbacks of Luffy and Zoro.

He never had that conviction lol. It isn't particularly about ambitions to begin with- it's that mindset to hold onto your conviction through death no matter how hopeless, and Sanji literally did not understand the concept. He watched clueless when Zoro did it, when Luffy did it. He screamed against it.

Someone who once had it wouldn't react as if he doesn't get wtf is happening or what they're thinking. He literally did not get it until Zeff elaborated.

As for as ambition in itself is concerned, I don't think I need to debate that Sanji doesn't take it as seriously or with as much conviction as Luffy or Zoro... there are gag-moments revolving around him demeaning it himself, and in TB, he indirectly admitted to it by mentioning how Zoro shouldn't be sacrificing himself because his conviction for his dreams is too big and huge. Even if he was using it as an excuse, it's there.

Ultimately, you can say Luffy and Zoro inspired him a lot of ways during the debut arc, but that still doesn't disprove how he didn't had it as a characteristic trait- he didn't even understand it. And even after, while has moments of great bravery, it isn't the blind and utterly devoted conviction that Luffy/Zoro have.

 

[LuffyTheGOAT]

Of course he'll get it, otherwise Zoro with CoC will only be on par with a guy with no CoC end of series

 

[Dark Knight Sanji]

He never had that conviction lol. It isn't particularly about ambitions to begin with- it's that mindset to hold onto your conviction through death no matter how hopeless, and Sanji literally did not understand the concept. He watched clueless when Zoro did it, when Luffy did it. He screamed against it.

Someone who once had it wouldn't react as if he doesn't get wtf is happening or what they're thinking. He literally did not get it until Zeff elaborated.

As for as ambition in itself is concerned, I don't think I need to debate that Sanji doesn't take it as seriously or with as much conviction as Luffy or Zoro... there are gag-moments revolving around him demeaning it himself, and in TB, he indirectly admitted to it by mentioning how Zoro shouldn't be sacrificing himself because his conviction for his dreams is too big and huge. Even if he was using it as an excuse, it's there.

Ultimately, you can say Luffy and Zoro inspired him a lot of ways during the debut arc, but that still doesn't disprove how he didn't had it as a characteristic trait- he didn't even understand it. And even after, while has moments of great bravery, it isn't the blind and utterly devoted conviction that Luffy/Zoro have.

So I guess Chinjao shouldn't have had CoC then because he totally lost hope after he couldn't access his treasure?!

Zeff the same guy who had to elaborate also noted that the spear of grit that Luffy had is also the same as Sanji's. So i am not sure how you are discounting a direct parallel from that. Zoro has never had the trials that Sanji has had for his dreams. And now we're using gags to support our ridiculously biased view. Well I'll take what the manga says and that is that both Luffy and Sanji have the same spear of grit as is explicitly stated by Zeff.

 

[Manos. AsuraZoro]

Mythical Zoan hito hito no mi model: sex offender

That fits him so well

 

[Shanal]

So I guess Chinjao shouldn't have had CoC then because he totally lost hope after he couldn't access his treasure?!

Zeff the same guy who had to elaborate also noted that the spear of grit that Luffy had is also the same as Sanji's. So i am not sure how you are discounting a direct parallel from that. Zoro has never had the trials that Sanji has had for his dreams. And now we're using gags to support our ridiculously biased view. Well I'll take what the manga says and that is that both Luffy and Sanji have the same spear of grit as is explicitly stated by Zeff.

Or you can read my response before screaming random accusations and bringing up examples of Chinjao lol

First of all, before I point them out, do note that I'm not saying that these are most important thing or primary requirement for CoC. Hell, we don't even know what they are. But I'm pointing out how those two were set apart from Sanji in the factor of their conviction, will and pride.

Also, what do you mean? Making a big gag joke on his dreams is Sanji's choice. You don't see Luffy or Zoro doing it. Or Nami. Or Franky. Or 99% of other characters. It's not me using it for a ridiculous view. It's me pointing out how Sanji doesn't take it as insanely seriously, and that's perfectly fucking okay. My dude wants to find his All Blue, but he lives more in present. He isn't hell-bent and devoting his existence to it. He enjoys life and present days more than obsessing over future and that's perfectly fine.

That's just his character.

If you want to pretend that he obsesses over All Blue like Zoro does with WSS or Luffy with PK. Or if his character revolves around All Blue like it is with other two and their dreams, you're so fucking wrong that I'm surprised you even like Sanji, because you clearly don't pay attention to him lol. There's nothing wrong with his devotions, either. It's just that he isn't a copy-cat of other two and their devotion regarding their ambitions.

He's a lot more lenient in that regards, and that's why the concept of All Blue isn't brought up in majority of his big character moments. Because he has a lot of other things just as central- if not more central to him outside of All Blue. His chivalry, his code of living, him as a chef, and bunch of present-day, continuous stuff which he values and revolves around far more than his ambition.

 

[Dark Knight Sanji]

Or you can read my response lol



Also, what do you mean? Making a big gag joke on his dreams is Sanji's choice. You don't see Luffy or Zoro doing it. Or Nami. Or Franky. Or 99% of other characters. It's not me using it for a ridiculous view. It's me pointing out how Sanji doesn't take it as seriously, and that's perfectly fucking okay. My dude wants to find his All Blue, but he lives more in present. He isn't hell-bent and devoting his existence to it. He enjoys life and present days more than obsessing over future and that's perfectly fine.

That's just his character.

If you want to pretend that he obsesses over All Blue like Zoro does with WSS or Luffy with PK. Or if his character revolves around All Blue like it is with other two and their dreams, you're so fucking wrong that I'm surprised you even like Sanji, because you clearly don't pay attention to him lol. There's nothing wrong with his devotions, either.

Well I would rather you pay attention to canon statements than your head canon but maybe you just aren't bright enough to do that.

Zeff compares Sanji's spear of grit to Luffy's. End of. So all your mental gymnastics to set apart Zoro and Luffy when you have direct statements in the manga just reveals your bias.

Trying to use gags is stupidly moronic, but I guess when you have no other arguments but your head canon, one has to resort to gags to support their ludicrous notions.

Sanji is willing to die for his dream but he is not someone who will let others die for his dream. The same thing happened to Zoro. He chose to to take the sacrifice but then he gets chastised by Sanji who scolds him for abandoning his dream. The same Sanji who Brook explicitly stated had the same resolve as Zoro. Another manga fact.

See, it's easy to argue a point without having to think up headcanonical arguments to support your illogical bias.

 

[mrtsrdr]

Sanji has deep character . You sould not expect from zoro fans to understand sanjis devolopment.

They are straightforward and flat people like zoro :)

When sanji gets coc , they wil blame oda .d

Best option is not to argue with them.

 

[Shanal]

Well I would rather you pay attention to canon statements than your head canon but maybe you just aren't bright enough to do that.

Zeff compares Sanji's spear of grit to Luffy's. End of. So all your mental gymnastics to set apart Zoro and Luffy when you have direct statements in the manga just reveals your bias.

Trying to use gags is stupidly moronic, but I guess when you have no other arguments but your head canon, one has to resort to gags to support their ludicrous notions.

Sanji is willing to die for his dream but he is not someone who will let others die for his dream. The same thing happened to Zoro. He chose to to take the sacrifice but then he gets chastised by Sanji who scolds him for abandoning his dream. The same Sanji who Brook explicitly stated had the same resolve as Zoro. Another manga fact.

See, it's easy to argue a point without having to think up headcanonical arguments to support your illogical bias.

...and are we going to pretend Sanji straight up had no idea why Luffy and Zoro are doing what they are doing, and he straight up, consciously, was against their decisions, and couldn't understand them, kept questioning it, and none of what Zeff did said "you're just like them", either...?

Also, I'm not using gag. I'm saying how Sanji, unlike Luffy, Zoro, or most people very central around their dreams, demeans his dream into a joke. Screaming about it as "using a gag" sounds like an excuse to cover up a behavior that no other character displayed?

Sanji values many, many things and qualities and codes of his own more than his dream. Sanji doesn't consider it as central nor does he take it as seriously nor does he even think of it during most of his big character moments. The ambition in itself is rarely brought up in case of Sanji. And Sanji, himself, said that Zoro should not sacrifice himself because his devotion to his ambition his too big, and wanted to take his place because to him it's a contrary.

Btw why are you so aggressive? My post was polite and it wasn't even directed at you, and you're coming at me with quite a lot of passive aggression as if I insulted your gran or something lol. Not to mention some weird innate labels towards me. Or are you just unable to take opinions of other people without getting offended?

 

[Dark Knight Sanji]

...and are we going to pretend Sanji straight up had no idea why Luffy and Zoro are doing what they are doing, and he straight up, consciously, was against their decisions, and couldn't understand them, kept questioning it, and none of what Zeff did said "you're just like them", either...?

Also, I'm not using gag. I'm saying how Sanji, unlike Luffy, Zoro, or most people very central around their dreams, demeans his dream into a joke.

Sanji values many, many things and qualities and codes of his own more than his dream. Sanji doesn't consider it as central nor does he take it as seriously nor does he even think of it during most of his big character moments. The ambition in itself is rarely brought up in case of Sanji. And Sanji, himself, said that Zoro should not sacrifice himself because his devotion to his ambition his too big, and wanted to take his place because to him it's a contrary.

Btw why are you so aggressive? My post was polite and it wasn't even directed at you, and you're coming at me with quite a lot of passive aggression as if I insulted your gran or something lol. Not to mention some weird innate labels towards me. Or are you just unable to take opinions of other people without getting offended?

Says the guy who is using profanities in his replies?!

 

[kurwa]

When Zoro points out his ambition, Sanji is the first to hop on and try to diminish it saying it's only asking for death:

Spoiler

Later on when Zoro literally chooses to die instead of backing off against Mihawk, Sanji straight up doesn't even understand why:

Spoiler

And even screams at Zoro to live, even if it means abandoning and giving up on his ambitions:

Spoiler

Later on, we see literally same qualities being mentioned in Luffy from Zeff, while Sanji listens intently:

Spoiler

Note that this doesn't just apply to ambitions, but convictions in general- yet Sanji doesn't understand that concept, still, and is visibly speechless at Judge's explanation:

Spoiler

Later on, Sanji even laments on what Zeff said, and thinks of both Zoro and Luffy:

Spoiler

undefined

Wow, I cannot believe you said all that and still missed the point of Baratie arc

The point of it was that Sanji used to be like Zoro and Luffy, but after all he has been through in life, he stopped dreaming and settled down in a real world and started to live solely because he wanted to repay the debt to Zeff instead of living his life

Zeff keeps comparing Sanji to Luffy & Zoro because that's who Sanji used to be:

When Sanji starts talking about All Blue, Zeffs sees that he's beginning to dream again

Zoro for example was never pushed as hard as Sanji was in his life, so his character never had his will broken. All Zoro did was train and that's it.

• He was never black mailed,
• he never starved as a child almost to death for months
• he never had abusive family
• his dream is realistic, unlike All Blue who is said to be a legend
• his family member was never said to be dead

even Luffy had his will broken as adult when Akainu killed Ace:

This was never about Sanji learning about Zoro's and Luffy's will. It was bout Sanji re-learning to be the same as them again

 

[RoronoaZorro]

I used to think that Sanji and Law not having CoC is Oda's way of saying "not every top tier needs to have CoC". Then Oda create AdCoC and it's relevancy in top tier fights...

 

[Chrono]

He never had that conviction lol. It isn't particularly about ambitions to begin with- it's that mindset to hold onto your conviction through death no matter how hopeless, and Sanji literally did not understand the concept. He watched clueless when Zoro did it, when Luffy did it. He screamed against it.

Someone who once had it wouldn't react as if he doesn't get wtf is happening or what they're thinking. He literally did not get it until Zeff elaborated.

As for as ambition in itself is concerned, I don't think I need to debate that Sanji doesn't take it as seriously or with as much conviction as Luffy or Zoro... there are gag-moments revolving around him demeaning it himself, and in TB, he indirectly admitted to it by mentioning how Zoro shouldn't be sacrificing himself because his conviction for his dreams is too big and huge. Even if he was using it as an excuse, it's there.

Ultimately, you can say Luffy and Zoro inspired him a lot of ways during the debut arc, but that still doesn't disprove how he didn't had it as a characteristic trait- he didn't even understand it. And even after, while has moments of great bravery, it isn't the blind and utterly devoted conviction that Luffy/Zoro have.

And again I told you re-read his backstory.

What is this.

Spoiler

Here we have child Sanji willing to die for his dream.

Its not about understanding the concept. Understanding the concept is useless because most OP characters are hypocrites. Its about doing it. Sanji was willing to die for his dream as a child and showed conviction. As a grown up he became undebted to Zeff, thus that dream faded for loyalty and having a debt to Zeff. Thus Sanji's new conviction was dying to protect the Baratie.

Spoiler

Does that mean Sanji doesnt have the conviction to die for his dream ? No. But as of now his dream took a backpedal for the debt to Zeff.



You say Sanji didnt understand the concept of dying for your dreams. Similarly Luffy never understood the concept of dying for a debt and protecting someone elses treasure....as he wasnt gonna allow Sanji to die for his new found conviction.

Spoiler

Would that mean Luffy wouldnt have done that in Sanji's shoes. Weve seen countless times Luffy owing debts to people and going out his way to put his life at risk to help them. Weve also seen Luffy go out his way to protect peoples treasure. Best example would be when he took a blow to protect Chopper's flag due to owing Chopper a debt.

Spoiler

In that moment Luffy was just as hypocritical to Sanji, as Sanji was to Zoro. As here we have Luffy risking his life for a stupid flag. Context is everything. Like I said understanding a concept is useless....doing is whats important. If Sanji never owed the debt hed risking his life constantly for his dreams. So again.

Sanji has conviction to die for his dreams.

Spoiler

He has the conviction to die for others treasures.

Spoiler

He has the conviction to protect others.

Spoiler

He has the conviction to not lose hope and carry on going.

Spoiler

He's exactly Zoro and Luffy

 

[Dark Knight Sanji]

Wow, I cannot believe you said all that and still missed the point of Baratie arc

The point of it was that Sanji used to be like Zoro and Luffy, but after all he has been through in life, he stopped dreaming and settled down in a real world and started to live solely because he wanted to repay the debt to Zeff instead of living his life

Zeff keeps comparing Sanji to Luffy & Zoro because that's who Sanji used to be:

When Sanji starts talking about All Blue, Zeffs sees that he's beginning to dream again

Zoro for example was never pushed as hard as Sanji was in his life, so his character never had his will broken. All Zoro did was train and that's it.

• He was never black mailed,
• he never starved as a child almost to death for months
• he never had abusive family
• his dream is realistic, unlike All Blue who is said to be a legend
• his family member was never said to be dead

even Luffy had his will broken as adult when Akainu killed Ace:

This was never about Sanji learning about Zoro's and Luffy's will. It was bout Sanji re-learning to be the same as them again

Honestly how can you read the arc and come to a conclusion that Sanji is devoted to his dream! Zeff says that Sanji has the same spear of grit ad Luffy. A direct parallel and yet we have dumb statement like this.