Hello everyone,
So I’m sure this thread may fit into a better subforum, I’ll leave it to WorstGen’s mod team to figure that out. Today, I wanted to make one of the many threads that I’ve wanted to make for a long time now.
You see, I became quite infamous for a criticism of Wano that I had made about the arc having complete shit dialogue, a claim that I stand by vigorously. But what exactly does it mean for a manga to have shit dialogue?
A lot of manga dialogue simply involves characters stating what is already happening on panel to make sure that readers understand what is actually happening. But Wano’s dialogue was much more egregious than that. Wano gave us lines of dialogue like this:
Where Kaido states that he can tell Luffy is enjoying himself….because Luffy is smiling.
You see, there’s having characters clarify what is happening on panel so that the reader understands what events are happening and why…and then there’s having characters state the fucking meaning behind facial expressions.
I am willing to overlook Kaido having to state out loud which attacks actually injure him and which don’t, because One Piece’s art really isn’t good enough to communicate this information reliably without dialogue, but I draw the line when Kaido has to verbally state the meaning behind a fucking smile.
Is this really all Kaido and Luffy had to talk about? I mean this was their entire fucking fight. Luffy destroyed Kaido’s SMILE business, both he and Kaido want to become the Pirate King, both have their alleged connections to Joyboy, and their whole fight was “I’m going to drink now, but don’t worry I won’t nerf myself.” “Wororo, this brat is strong.” Wororo, he’s combining Haki types.”
This shit was straight up ass tier dialogue and today I’m going to finally explain why it bugs me so much. What I’m going to do is I’m going to present a scene that in my opinion has fucking stellar dialogue and explain what makes it so stellar.
I’m going to present a scene that I’ve talked about in detail in the past with fellow Kingdom enjoyers but with much more depth. There are some pretty big spoilers for the Kingdom manga here, so if you think Kingdom is a series you may want to read in the future and want to avoid spoilers, please proceed with caution.
This is Ryofui vs Riboku.
Now, a bit of context so that you can understand why this dialogue works so well. I’ll keep this brief, I promise.
Riboku, at the time this scene takes place, is considered the strongest General in all China, because he just defeated and killed the previous strongest General in all China. Ryofui is considered a great Politician, not the best in China but among the best and he has a powerful loyalist faction. With time to build his faction he could easily become the best in China. So!
Ryofui masterminds a situation that involves Riboku’s King forcing Riboku to go into enemy territory (Ryofui’s territory) to negotiate a hostage release. Ryofui, having planned for this, wants to achieve one of two goals now that he has Riboku in front of him:
1. Kill Riboku
OR
2. Obtain something from Riboku that is more valuable than Riboku’s head.
Riboku fully understands that this is Ryofui’s goal, so Riboku has two objectives of his own:
1. Do not get himself killed
2. Negotiate the hostage release while conceding as little to Ryofui as possible.
This is the core foundation of good dialogue: Good dialogue is a battle. Good dialogue involves two characters attacking and defending as they each verbally pound each other in order to achieve an objective. Look at all of the most famous dialogue scenes of all time, and I guarantee that you will see some variation of this principal in action. The resulting attacks and defenses are the foundation of the conflict in your dialogue. Sure good dialogue doesn’t have to involve conflict, but conflicting dialogue works best when you have two characters who are enemies as we have in this scene as well as Luffy vs Kaido.
But this scene is more brilliant than simply having good dialogue via Riboku and Ryofui attacking and defending. But just so I don’t lose your attention in a giant text wall, let’s just proceed with the scene and look at the dialogue:
Let’s look at Ryofui’s first real line of dialogue here:
“To think you would actually come, Prime Minister.”
This line of dialogue actually has a double meaning. On the surface, Ryofui is of course expressing his shock that Riboku actually came into enemy territory where he could be killed.
But in reality, what Ryofui is saying, is “Riboku, are you a fucking idiot?”
You see, Ryofui wants to kill Riboku, but he doesn’t just want to suddenly order his men to attack and kill Riboku and his escort. If Ryofui invited a foreign diplomat into his own state’s capital, and then simply gave the order to kill that diplomat…then no states would ever send diplomats to Ryofui or his state ever again.
In Kingdom, it is established that in spite of the fact that the seven states raise armies consisting of hundreds of thousands of men to slaughter each other in mass, the states still want to maintain diplomatic relationships with one another. This is because historically, there have been prior states that cut diplomatic ties with the other states, which resulted in those states ultimately being politically isolated and eventually destroyed entirely.
So what Ryofui wants is to kill Riboku, but he wants Riboku to give him a reason to kill him. He wants to say “Riboku, are you a fucking idiot?” To which Riboku responds “how dare you insult my honor, I’ll have your head for that!” And then Ryofui gives the order to kill Riboku and boom, Ryofui wins. The other states will see this as Riboku starting a fight that Ryofui finishes, and thus Ryofui’s state (Qin) will be able to maintain its diplomatic ties.
“We didn’t invite Riboku to Qin just to kill him, we wanted to negotiate with him, but as soon as he got to Kanyou, he tried to kill us and so we defended ourselves.”
This way, Qin can maintain an air of innocence. “We didn’t start this, Riboku’s death was his own fault.”
So how does Ryofui maintain his facade of innocence?
Easy: He projects a false sense of civility.
He doesn’t say: “Riboku, are you a fucking idiot?” He says: “To think you would actually come, Prime Minister.” The words are different, more civil, but the intended meaning is the same. “Give me a reason to kill you, Riboku.” Is what he is really going for here.
And thus, we have established the full context of why the dialogue I’m about to present to you is f*%#ing god tier. Ryofui wants to kill Riboku, so Ryofui attempts to make Riboku break civility and give the Qin a reason to kill him, but he attempts to do this indirectly so that Qin can maintain its facade of innocence.
But Riboku won’t take this lying down, as you will soon discover:
I want to draw your attention to Riboku’s final line of dialogue in these panels:
“I believe it’s only been a dozen years since you left Zhao. To have been made chancellor of the Great State of Qin in just ten years. Truly your talents are terrifying.”
You see, Riboku’s home state is the state of Zhao, a state that Ryofui used to live in before ultimately leaving to go to Qin. So when Riboku says the above line, what is he really saying?
“You, Chancellor Ryofui of Qin, are a fucking traitor to your state.”
And now we have truly reached the knife’s edge of why this dialogue is so brilliant. We are about to witness both Riboku and Ryofui verbally assault each other, but each of these characters is going to hide their verbal assaults under an illusion of paying respectful compliments to one another, since to break civility would signal defeat.
But Ryofui and Riboku aren’t just playing this game of political sparring for no reason:
Look at Shin’s reaction here.
What the heck is this ridiculous conversation?
You see, this level of verbal repertoire only works if you are dealing with extremely intelligent characters, which both Riboku and Ryofui are. Riboku is the greatest general in all of China, and Ryofui is at least one of the greatest politicians in China. These two can play this verbal sparring match because these are two hyper intelligent characters. You don’t usually see dialogue of this level between characters who aren’t highly intelligent or highly educated.
So to Shin, who is an ex-house servant turned battlefield commander with no formal education, this conversation makes no sense and is just weird. He is incapable of picking up on what these two characters are actually saying to each other, all he hears is the words without understanding their true meaning.
So when Riboku says: “To switch loyalties to make a name for yourself is a common occurrence in this times.” Secretly intending to say: “You are not an outstanding man like you think you are, you are just a run of the mill traitor,” this is completely lost on Shin, as is the rest of the following verbal onslaught:
Ryofui: “I’ve heard that you are extremely popular with the common folk.”
True meaning: “lol, you peasant”
True meaning: “Calling me a peasant is a compliment, I want nothing more than to live that sort of life.”
Ryofui: “I had thought that the man who killed Ouki would be if a far greater caliber.”
True meaning: “You seem to be a small, pathetic man.”
Riboku: “If I possessed your level of boldness, I would not have defeated Ouki. I only won because I am a coward.”
True meaning: “I am better than Ouki who was a proud fool. You are a proud fool just like Ouki, and thus I am better than you as well.”
The reason Ryofui busts out laughing here, is because he is impressed with how well Riboku has played his game of civility. He has attempted to make Riboku incriminate himself, but not only has Riboku not taken the bait, but he has punched Ryofui back in the same way Ryofui has punched him: by hiding his attacks under a facade of civility.
I will not play your game. I am better than you are.
Ryofui is thoroughly satisfied with this level of verbal combat, and he now understands that he won’t be able to best Riboku this way. So how does he respond?
He immediately shatters the false sense of civility that he himself has created and drops a verbal tactical nuke on Riboku.
“I’m going to kill you now, okay?”
But by this point, Ryofui knows better than to assume Riboku will take this lying down, so he does not give the order to have swords drawn just yet. Instead, Ryofui has dropped this verbal nuke on Riboku with the explicit purpose of now getting Riboku to “unleash his true power” as it were:
….
And if you want to know what happens next, well I’m afraid you’ll just have to join the GOAT fandom and read Kingdom. Again I must stress, this isn’t the only way to write good dialogue, but this is just to give an example of how to write fucking stellar dialogue in a manga. Literally each individual like of dialogue has its stated words, it’s true secret meaning, and it’s attempt to ‘defeat’ the opponent.
Now that we’ve analyzed dialogue that is literally dripping with illusions, hidden meanings, hidden objectives, and subtle verbal combat, I want to turn your attention back to the original piece of dialogue I opened this thread with.
There is no subtlety behind this line of dialogue, or really any line of dialogue present in Luffy vs Kaido. There are no secret intended meanings, no lines of attack or defense aside from these two simply screaming the very first thoughts that come to their minds with no restraint. There is no substance whatsoever to the dialogue in Luffy vs Kaido or most dialogue in Wano.
If Ryofui vs Riboku was a verbal sword dual between two masters, each of them gracefully parrying, thrusting, evading, and stabbing with precision and intent…Luffy vs Kaido is two angry brain-damaged gorillas swinging shit hammers at each other while howling at the top of their lungs in the process.
There is no elegance or mastery to this dialogue, or the vast majority of lines of dialogue in Wano.
Which is why I can now definitively state that Wano has shit dialogue.
@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @Den_Den_Mushi @TheKnightOfTheSea @God Buggy @Xione @MarineHQ @ZenZu @HA001 OF THE RAIN @Light D Lamperouge @The White Crane @Wuuuke @FutureWarrior123 @Jiihad @AkainuTheGrimReaper @silverfire @scoobie3 @Extravlad @kurwa @ConquistadoR @JoNdule @ShishioIsBack @Sentinel @Playa4321 @Apollo @Seth etc etc etc
So I’m sure this thread may fit into a better subforum, I’ll leave it to WorstGen’s mod team to figure that out. Today, I wanted to make one of the many threads that I’ve wanted to make for a long time now.
You see, I became quite infamous for a criticism of Wano that I had made about the arc having complete shit dialogue, a claim that I stand by vigorously. But what exactly does it mean for a manga to have shit dialogue?
A lot of manga dialogue simply involves characters stating what is already happening on panel to make sure that readers understand what is actually happening. But Wano’s dialogue was much more egregious than that. Wano gave us lines of dialogue like this:
Where Kaido states that he can tell Luffy is enjoying himself….because Luffy is smiling.
You see, there’s having characters clarify what is happening on panel so that the reader understands what events are happening and why…and then there’s having characters state the fucking meaning behind facial expressions.
I am willing to overlook Kaido having to state out loud which attacks actually injure him and which don’t, because One Piece’s art really isn’t good enough to communicate this information reliably without dialogue, but I draw the line when Kaido has to verbally state the meaning behind a fucking smile.
Is this really all Kaido and Luffy had to talk about? I mean this was their entire fucking fight. Luffy destroyed Kaido’s SMILE business, both he and Kaido want to become the Pirate King, both have their alleged connections to Joyboy, and their whole fight was “I’m going to drink now, but don’t worry I won’t nerf myself.” “Wororo, this brat is strong.” Wororo, he’s combining Haki types.”
This shit was straight up ass tier dialogue and today I’m going to finally explain why it bugs me so much. What I’m going to do is I’m going to present a scene that in my opinion has fucking stellar dialogue and explain what makes it so stellar.
I’m going to present a scene that I’ve talked about in detail in the past with fellow Kingdom enjoyers but with much more depth. There are some pretty big spoilers for the Kingdom manga here, so if you think Kingdom is a series you may want to read in the future and want to avoid spoilers, please proceed with caution.
This is Ryofui vs Riboku.
Now, a bit of context so that you can understand why this dialogue works so well. I’ll keep this brief, I promise.
Riboku, at the time this scene takes place, is considered the strongest General in all China, because he just defeated and killed the previous strongest General in all China. Ryofui is considered a great Politician, not the best in China but among the best and he has a powerful loyalist faction. With time to build his faction he could easily become the best in China. So!
Ryofui masterminds a situation that involves Riboku’s King forcing Riboku to go into enemy territory (Ryofui’s territory) to negotiate a hostage release. Ryofui, having planned for this, wants to achieve one of two goals now that he has Riboku in front of him:
1. Kill Riboku
OR
2. Obtain something from Riboku that is more valuable than Riboku’s head.
Riboku fully understands that this is Ryofui’s goal, so Riboku has two objectives of his own:
1. Do not get himself killed
2. Negotiate the hostage release while conceding as little to Ryofui as possible.
This is the core foundation of good dialogue: Good dialogue is a battle. Good dialogue involves two characters attacking and defending as they each verbally pound each other in order to achieve an objective. Look at all of the most famous dialogue scenes of all time, and I guarantee that you will see some variation of this principal in action. The resulting attacks and defenses are the foundation of the conflict in your dialogue. Sure good dialogue doesn’t have to involve conflict, but conflicting dialogue works best when you have two characters who are enemies as we have in this scene as well as Luffy vs Kaido.
But this scene is more brilliant than simply having good dialogue via Riboku and Ryofui attacking and defending. But just so I don’t lose your attention in a giant text wall, let’s just proceed with the scene and look at the dialogue:
Let’s look at Ryofui’s first real line of dialogue here:
“To think you would actually come, Prime Minister.”
This line of dialogue actually has a double meaning. On the surface, Ryofui is of course expressing his shock that Riboku actually came into enemy territory where he could be killed.
But in reality, what Ryofui is saying, is “Riboku, are you a fucking idiot?”
You see, Ryofui wants to kill Riboku, but he doesn’t just want to suddenly order his men to attack and kill Riboku and his escort. If Ryofui invited a foreign diplomat into his own state’s capital, and then simply gave the order to kill that diplomat…then no states would ever send diplomats to Ryofui or his state ever again.
In Kingdom, it is established that in spite of the fact that the seven states raise armies consisting of hundreds of thousands of men to slaughter each other in mass, the states still want to maintain diplomatic relationships with one another. This is because historically, there have been prior states that cut diplomatic ties with the other states, which resulted in those states ultimately being politically isolated and eventually destroyed entirely.
So what Ryofui wants is to kill Riboku, but he wants Riboku to give him a reason to kill him. He wants to say “Riboku, are you a fucking idiot?” To which Riboku responds “how dare you insult my honor, I’ll have your head for that!” And then Ryofui gives the order to kill Riboku and boom, Ryofui wins. The other states will see this as Riboku starting a fight that Ryofui finishes, and thus Ryofui’s state (Qin) will be able to maintain its diplomatic ties.
“We didn’t invite Riboku to Qin just to kill him, we wanted to negotiate with him, but as soon as he got to Kanyou, he tried to kill us and so we defended ourselves.”
This way, Qin can maintain an air of innocence. “We didn’t start this, Riboku’s death was his own fault.”
So how does Ryofui maintain his facade of innocence?
Easy: He projects a false sense of civility.
He doesn’t say: “Riboku, are you a fucking idiot?” He says: “To think you would actually come, Prime Minister.” The words are different, more civil, but the intended meaning is the same. “Give me a reason to kill you, Riboku.” Is what he is really going for here.
And thus, we have established the full context of why the dialogue I’m about to present to you is f*%#ing god tier. Ryofui wants to kill Riboku, so Ryofui attempts to make Riboku break civility and give the Qin a reason to kill him, but he attempts to do this indirectly so that Qin can maintain its facade of innocence.
But Riboku won’t take this lying down, as you will soon discover:
I want to draw your attention to Riboku’s final line of dialogue in these panels:
“I believe it’s only been a dozen years since you left Zhao. To have been made chancellor of the Great State of Qin in just ten years. Truly your talents are terrifying.”
You see, Riboku’s home state is the state of Zhao, a state that Ryofui used to live in before ultimately leaving to go to Qin. So when Riboku says the above line, what is he really saying?
“You, Chancellor Ryofui of Qin, are a fucking traitor to your state.”
And now we have truly reached the knife’s edge of why this dialogue is so brilliant. We are about to witness both Riboku and Ryofui verbally assault each other, but each of these characters is going to hide their verbal assaults under an illusion of paying respectful compliments to one another, since to break civility would signal defeat.
But Ryofui and Riboku aren’t just playing this game of political sparring for no reason:
Look at Shin’s reaction here.
What the heck is this ridiculous conversation?
You see, this level of verbal repertoire only works if you are dealing with extremely intelligent characters, which both Riboku and Ryofui are. Riboku is the greatest general in all of China, and Ryofui is at least one of the greatest politicians in China. These two can play this verbal sparring match because these are two hyper intelligent characters. You don’t usually see dialogue of this level between characters who aren’t highly intelligent or highly educated.
So to Shin, who is an ex-house servant turned battlefield commander with no formal education, this conversation makes no sense and is just weird. He is incapable of picking up on what these two characters are actually saying to each other, all he hears is the words without understanding their true meaning.
So when Riboku says: “To switch loyalties to make a name for yourself is a common occurrence in this times.” Secretly intending to say: “You are not an outstanding man like you think you are, you are just a run of the mill traitor,” this is completely lost on Shin, as is the rest of the following verbal onslaught:
Ryofui: “I’ve heard that you are extremely popular with the common folk.”
True meaning: “lol, you peasant”
True meaning: “Calling me a peasant is a compliment, I want nothing more than to live that sort of life.”
Ryofui: “I had thought that the man who killed Ouki would be if a far greater caliber.”
True meaning: “You seem to be a small, pathetic man.”
Riboku: “If I possessed your level of boldness, I would not have defeated Ouki. I only won because I am a coward.”
True meaning: “I am better than Ouki who was a proud fool. You are a proud fool just like Ouki, and thus I am better than you as well.”
The reason Ryofui busts out laughing here, is because he is impressed with how well Riboku has played his game of civility. He has attempted to make Riboku incriminate himself, but not only has Riboku not taken the bait, but he has punched Ryofui back in the same way Ryofui has punched him: by hiding his attacks under a facade of civility.
I will not play your game. I am better than you are.
Ryofui is thoroughly satisfied with this level of verbal combat, and he now understands that he won’t be able to best Riboku this way. So how does he respond?
He immediately shatters the false sense of civility that he himself has created and drops a verbal tactical nuke on Riboku.
“I’m going to kill you now, okay?”
But by this point, Ryofui knows better than to assume Riboku will take this lying down, so he does not give the order to have swords drawn just yet. Instead, Ryofui has dropped this verbal nuke on Riboku with the explicit purpose of now getting Riboku to “unleash his true power” as it were:
….
And if you want to know what happens next, well I’m afraid you’ll just have to join the GOAT fandom and read Kingdom. Again I must stress, this isn’t the only way to write good dialogue, but this is just to give an example of how to write fucking stellar dialogue in a manga. Literally each individual like of dialogue has its stated words, it’s true secret meaning, and it’s attempt to ‘defeat’ the opponent.
Now that we’ve analyzed dialogue that is literally dripping with illusions, hidden meanings, hidden objectives, and subtle verbal combat, I want to turn your attention back to the original piece of dialogue I opened this thread with.
There is no subtlety behind this line of dialogue, or really any line of dialogue present in Luffy vs Kaido. There are no secret intended meanings, no lines of attack or defense aside from these two simply screaming the very first thoughts that come to their minds with no restraint. There is no substance whatsoever to the dialogue in Luffy vs Kaido or most dialogue in Wano.
If Ryofui vs Riboku was a verbal sword dual between two masters, each of them gracefully parrying, thrusting, evading, and stabbing with precision and intent…Luffy vs Kaido is two angry brain-damaged gorillas swinging shit hammers at each other while howling at the top of their lungs in the process.
There is no elegance or mastery to this dialogue, or the vast majority of lines of dialogue in Wano.
Which is why I can now definitively state that Wano has shit dialogue.
@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @Den_Den_Mushi @TheKnightOfTheSea @God Buggy @Xione @MarineHQ @ZenZu @HA001 OF THE RAIN @Light D Lamperouge @The White Crane @Wuuuke @FutureWarrior123 @Jiihad @AkainuTheGrimReaper @silverfire @scoobie3 @Extravlad @kurwa @ConquistadoR @JoNdule @ShishioIsBack @Sentinel @Playa4321 @Apollo @Seth etc etc etc
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