Controversial Why G5 is the fiasco of One Piece

Do you like G5?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 47.5%
  • No

    Votes: 31 52.5%

  • Total voters
    59
I saw him pull this shit with Lucci in Egghead and it was cool.
I saw Luffy make a giant cartoon arm and become a little thing and run away from Lucci in Enies Lobby. And you use that fight as a legendary example.
I have seen Luffy become a baloon to defeat Moria.
I have seen Luffy become a jumping bouncing gorilla to fight Doffy.
I have seen tankman.
I have seen Luffy become a baloon man against crocodile and spill water, and that was the key to defeat crocodile..
Now it is a problem... Why?
Luffy having goofy moments inside fights ain't new.

Going full dumb all fight is different.
Lucci fight was one no one saw as challenge.
 
Man, it's almost like you're just arguing to argue here.

Luffy being tiny was side effect of G3, same with G4 being bouncy because G4 utilize spring force.

Gags and jokes weren't the focus and the entire essence of the fight. There is a massive difference between gags and troll being the focus/essence of the fight with main villain being trolled, vs them being sprinkled here and there.
If you like the entire essence of the fight being a massive joke where the villain also be turned into a joke, well good for you. But stop doing this shit where you're pretending like they were even remotely comparable, because they were not. You know it, and I know it. So why be disingenuous here with the comparisons?
The fight with Kaido was probably something like 20 chapters, if not more, of which probably 5 were G5. And I am wildly underestimating them, because it was probably more like 30-5.

In the G5 chapters 1044,45,46,47 , Luffy pulled some absolute goofy and wonky stuff, to then end on a more serious note in chapters 1048 and 1049, when the last blows were thrown in a very serious way, we could say.

This is a fact, so the "entire essence" you can clearly admit is a MASSIVE overstatement.
I am a massive g5 enjoyer, it brings me joy and I like it. I understand you don't like it, specially when you point out you were expecting it to be like Bleach or Naruto, but mid-fight jokes were always there in One Piece, and when Luffy needed the fight to turn serious again, it turned serious.
Would you have preferred to the power up to be edgy or more snake-man like? Fine, but it's you that have betrayed expectations. Gear fourth you say it's "spring force" which is absolutely not rubber, rubber stretch, but it's still extremely goofy.

Let's take do Flamingo fight.
G4 is extremely goofy, look at this: https://esj.tn/manga/one-piece-chapter-784/
Even do flamingo calls it a joke.
The fight finishes with a gag ending, with mr. Speaker chanting for Luffy and making a count down for luffy to stand up. That is not goofy? That doesn't turn the essence of the fight?
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Legendary battle? Would you say that Luffy vs Lucci on Egghead > Luffy vs Lucci on Enies Lobby?
I said cool, not legendary.

That wasn't a cartoon arm. That was an arm of a giant like his initial rubber DF allow him to do.
Yeah, totally not cartoonish. Specially turning into a mini Luffy, not cartoony at all.

He became a ballon on Reverse Mountain to save the ship. And again fighting Crocodile before last attack. Those are all his initial DF property not G5 shit.
Yeah, and it's still a gag. We are talking about goofy shit, not about whatever G5 allows him to do.


With serious badass face. Not goofy one.
Luffy defeated Kaido with a serious badass face, so? https://esj.tn/manga/one-piece-chapter-1049/


And is not a remarkable fight because of that.
Like I said those were all about his initial DF. And those weren't suppose to be joke but him fighting seriously. Which is way different now.
They were still gags, doesn't matter if it was its fruit.
 
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The fight with Kaido was probably something like 20 chapters, if not more, of which probably 5 were G5. And I am wildly underestimating them, because it was probably more like 30-5.

In the G5 chapters 1044,45,46,47 , Luffy pulled some absolute goofy and wonky stuff, to then end on a more serious note in chapters 1048 and 1049, when the last blows were thrown in a very serious way, we could say.
I can't man........this has to be deliberate.

No way you compared the entirety of Kaido vs Luffy, when I was only talking about G5 vs Kaido. So let's just talk about that. We are discussing G5 specifically here, and yes G5 vs Kaido was a joke.


This is a fact, so the "entire essence" you can clearly admit is a MASSIVE overstatement.
It isn't an overstatement, when vast majority of the fight was clownery.
Just because the final attack itself was serious, doesn't mean the fight as a whole was. You have one punch being serious, versus the rest of the fight being toon nonsense.

I am a massive g5 enjoyer, it brings me joy and I like it. I understand you don't like it, specially when you point out you were expecting it to be like Bleach or Naruto, but mid-fight jokes were always there in One Piece, and when Luffy needed the fight to turn serious again, it turned serious.
Would you have preferred to the power up to be edgy or more snake-man like? Fine, but it's you that have betrayed expectations.
It is ok if you like G5.

What is not ok is cherry picking prior events to gaslight others into believing that Luffy fight were always like this, when they clearly weren't.

Me:
In prior fights, vast majority of the fight was serious and didn't actively dehype or de-escalate the situation, with some gags sprinkled here and there
You:
Look at this one off gag in prior fights. Look at the final attack of G5 being serious. Luffy's past fights and G5 are equivalent! Why do you find problem with G5 then??

That fact that you are equating few gag moments sprinkled here and there in past fights, to the almost entirety of the G5 vs Kaido fight being gag.......does suggest to me you're being deliberate here.
Why do you feel the need to pretend like Luffy's prior fights versus the main villains were comparably goofy, when they obvious were not?

And no, I wasn't expecting it to be like Nartuo/DBz, I was just pointing out how ridiculous it would be to have SAGA villains to be treated as a joke.
Because you misunderstood it, I even bought in the legendary past saga villains of OP.

Yes, I 100% prefer G2/G3/G4 vs Kaido for sure, no question about it.
Why would I have betrayed expectations for expecting G5 to not be a gag, when G2, G3 and G4 were not gags?

Let's take do Flamingo fight.
G4 is extremely goofy, look at this: https://esj.tn/manga/one-piece-chapter-784/
Even do flamingo calls it a joke.
This is what I am talking about you cherry picking panels.

There was one "gag" moment (it wasn't really) where Doflamingo thought it was a joke. Because he saw inflated Luffy jumping, he thought it was funny.
But immediately soon, he realized there was no gag about G4.

Where is Luffy joking around in G4? Right, there is no joking around, it was a serious fight against Doflamingo.

What did he say before using G4 against Doflamingo?
"You made my friends cry. I won't let anyone else die, but you and your birdcage is in the way"
Where is the joke or troll in this??

You ignore the entire fight being serious, Luffy speech before using G4 being serious.
And just cherry pick the part where G4 is inflated and bouncing around..............well, that is simply what G4 is. It is a mode where Luffy inflate himself, and simultaneously compress himself using armament haki to maintain high pressure. Hence spring force

The fight finishes with a gag ending, with mr. Speaker chanting for Luffy and making a count down for luffy to stand up. That is not goofy? That doesn't turn the essence of the fight?
WTF?? :choppawhat:

Why would the announcer he rallying a demoralized population with Luffy's accomplishments, cheering for your last hope to get back up, with the fodder attempting to buy time putting their life on the line be a gag?

That dude is an announcer, that is his way of trying to motivate a desperate and demoralized population.

There is zero gag going on here.
 
Then Shanks is stupid
:endthis:
Man, the simplest answer just that Oda didn't plan so far ahead, and concepts like armament haki were not a thing back then.
So Shanks couldn't save Luffy without sacrificing his arm back then.

But retroactively, it is amongst the biggest inconsistencies in OP.

Herrera is right here:
He bet on Luffy by saving him while giving up his arm. There is no point in giving up his arm if he could save both Luffy and his arm.
 
H

Herrera95

Man, the simplest answer just that Oda didn't plan so far ahead, and concepts like armament haki were not a thing back then.
So Shanks couldn't save Luffy without sacrificing his arm back then.

But retroactively, it is amongst the biggest inconsistencies in OP.

Herrera is right here:
That's why I say to not take in consideration Film Red filler. It is impossible for Shanks to have a billion bounty at time without those random bandits knowing who he is and not having any haki that could save Luffy and his arm at same time.

It is the perfect moment for Shanks to unleash his CoC.
 
I can't man........this has to be deliberate.

No way you compared the entirety of Kaido vs Luffy, when I was only talking about G5 vs Kaido. So let's just talk about that. We are discussing G5 specifically here, and yes G5 vs Kaido was a joke.




It isn't an overstatement, when vast majority of the fight was clownery.
Just because the final attack itself was serious, doesn't mean the fight as a whole was. You have one punch being serious, versus the rest of the fight being toon nonsense.
You wrote that G5 made gags and jokes the entire essence of the fight.
A fight that lasted 20+ chapters, you take the 4 chapters with gags, which is like 20%, and decide that the essence of the whole fight is only that part. How about unlocking coating? How about rooftop? How about chapters and chapters of G4?

Gags and jokes weren't the focus and the entire essence of the fight. There is a massive difference between gags and troll being the focus/essence of the fight with main villain being trolled, vs them being sprinkled here and there.
And you say that I cherry pick. Come on.

It is ok if you like G5.

What is not ok is cherry picking prior events to gaslight others into believing that Luffy fight were always like this, when they clearly weren't.

Me:
In prior fights, vast majority of the fight was serious and didn't actively dehype or de-escalate the situation, with some gags sprinkled here and there
You:
Look at this one off gag in prior fights. Look at the final attack of G5 being serious. Luffy's past fights and G5 are equivalent! Why do you find problem with G5 then??

That fact that you are equating few gag moments sprinkled here and there in past fights, to the almost entirety of the G5 vs Kaido fight being gag.......does suggest to me you're being deliberate here.
Why do you feel the need to pretend like Luffy's prior fights versus the main villains were comparably goofy, when they obvious were not?

And no, I wasn't expecting it to be like Nartuo/DBz, I was just pointing out how ridiculous it would be to have SAGA villains to be treated as a joke.
Because you misunderstood it, I even bought in the legendary past saga villains of OP.

Yes, I 100% prefer G2/G3/G4 vs Kaido for sure, no question about it.
Why would I have betrayed expectations for expecting G5 to not be a gag, when G2, G3 and G4 were not gags?
I am not talking about one off gags.
Luffy filling himself with water was not an one-off gag, was the key for victory.
Luffy making a cartoon giant hand and becoming a little doll was not an one-off gag, was the key for victory, and you accuse me of gaslighting, jesus.

Saying that the "G5 vs Kaido" fight was all gags is completely dishonest, because that fight belongs to a larger arc. It belongs to a 20+ climax that ended there, and at the end of the day, you are saying that where the climax ended is not of your taste because it's a tonal shift that ruins the story. I understand this point, and I find it incredibly valid.
But it comes from you that keep saying that it is ridiculous to have a SAGA villain to be treated as a joke when that is the whole purpose of the story. Like, that is exactly what the author was going for, and you dislike it. It's valid, but you are just saying that you dislike a deliberate action by the author, which other people liked.
This is what I am talking about you cherry picking panels.

There was one "gag" moment (it wasn't really) where Doflamingo thought it was a joke. Because he saw inflated Luffy jumping, he thought it was funny.
But immediately soon, he realized there was no gag about G4.

Where is Luffy joking around in G4? Right, there is no joking around, it was a serious fight against Doflamingo.

What did he say before using G4 against Doflamingo?
"You made my friends cry. I won't let anyone else die, but you and your birdcage is in the way"
Where is the joke or troll in this??

You ignore the entire fight being serious, Luffy speech before using G4 being serious.
And just cherry pick the part where G4 is inflated and bouncing around..............well, that is simply what G4 is. It is a mode where Luffy inflate himself, and simultaneously compress himself using armament haki to maintain high pressure. Hence spring force



WTF?? :choppawhat:

Why would the announcer he rallying a demoralized population with Luffy's accomplishments, cheering for your last hope to get back up, with the fodder attempting to buy time putting their life on the line be a gag?

That dude is an announcer, that is his way of trying to motivate a desperate and demoralized population.

There is zero gag going on here.
When I say that G4 is a gag, I mean the aspect, how it looks, how it works. You had no problems when the "rubber" power of Luffy made him do completely unrubbery things?
And it's not one panel, Luffy speaking to himself telling python to chase Doffy is not a gag, oh no.
Luffy becoming a missile at the end of chapter 785 is not a gag.

I will just point out the hypocrisy of your argument when you write You ignore the entire fight being serious, Luffy speech before using G4 being serious.
You are ignoring 20+ chapters of serious fight with Kaido, focusing on the 4 chapters of G5.
 
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That's why I say to not take in consideration Film Red filler. It is impossible for Shanks to have a billion bounty at time without those random bandits knowing who he is and not having any haki that could save Luffy and his arm at same time.

It is the perfect moment for Shanks to unleash his CoC.
Ehh, I think it's all possible.
The four seas are kinda insulated from the main pirate and marine action going on in Grand Line. So it's possible that random bandits had no idea about who Shanks was.

Heck, some of Strawhats didn't know who YONKO Shanks was. Only some like Robin knew. Nami, Sanji had no idea.

All we have to simply accept is that Oda didn't think through concepts of haki, and rest adds up at least to a somewhat believable extend within the narrative
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You wrote that G5 made gags and jokes the entire essence of the fight.
A fight that lasted 20+ chapters, you take the 4 chapters with gags, which is like 20%, and decide that the essence of the whole fight is only that part. How about unlocking coating? How about rooftop? How about chapters and chapters of G4?
OMG dude, I said the entire essence of GEAR 5 was gags and jokes.
Why TF are you bringing in what happened BEFORE G5, when I am ONLY talking about G5???

And you say that I cherry pick. Come on.
?
Everything I said here was right:

"Gags and jokes weren't the focus and the entire essence of the fight. There is a massive difference between gags and troll being the focus/essence of the fight with main villain being trolled, vs them being sprinkled here and there. "



I am not talking about one off gags.
Luffy filling himself with water was not an one-off gag, was the key for victory.
Luffy making a cartoon giant hand and becoming a little doll was not an one-off gag, was the key for victory, and you accuse me of gaslighting, jesus.
??
Back to cherry picking I see......

Luffy filling himself with water wasn't key for victory (he lost miserably), Luffy's blood stained body was.
Filling himself with water was a one off moment that played a minor contribution in that Luffy realized moisture was the key, but water bloated Luffy was negged all the same ultimately.
And again, it wasn't completely a gag either. It was Luffy using his rubber body to hold enough water and then use water to try and damage Crocodile.

The "cartoon giant hand" is not a gag, neither was it key to victory. How TF do you not realize the difference between power and gag?
And G3 contributed maybe like 20% of the damage to Lucci. Rest of the 80% came from G2, including the arguably most iconic finish of the series with the gattaling barrage.
The giant hand is simply G3. You simply can't be calling that a gag, when it is well explained and within the confines of Luffy's power as a rubber man. What part of blowing air into your rubber body to utilize the rubber property and make yourself big sounds like a gag?

Saying that the "G5 vs Kaido" fight was all gags is completely dishonest, because that fight belongs to a larger arc. It belongs to a 20+ climax that ended there, and at the end of the day, you are saying that where the climax ended is not of your taste because it's a tonal shift that ruins the story. I understand this point, and I find it incredibly valid.
WTF.
Why are you comparing the entire 20+ chapters, when I am ONLY talking about G5 vs Kaido exclusively?

Yes, Luffy vs Kaido was being built up well, and then G5 ruined it.
If you ask me of 1026 - whenever Luffy got KO'd, yeah that fight was all right for OP standards.

But it comes from you that keep saying that it is ridiculous to have a SAGA villain to be treated as a joke when that is the whole purpose of the story. Like, that is exactly what the author was going for, and you dislike it. It's valid, but you are just saying that you dislike a deliberate action by the author, which other people liked.
Yes, it's ridiculous, because none of the other main saga villains were turned into jokes and have the tension de-escalate.

With great arc villains of OP - Crocodile, Enel, Lucci, Doflamingo, Katakuri.....
The tension and seriousness only progressively INCREASED as the fight went by. Ultimately, culminating in a satisfying end to the fight.
The raid on the other hand started seriously, the tension slowly started going have any seriousness or tension when Luffy was using Kaido as jumping rope?

This was one of the reasons Morj was behind the "raid will fail". Because he couldn't believe that the tension and stakes were just increasingly diminishing as the arc went by.
 
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Man, the simplest answer just that Oda didn't plan so far ahead, and concepts like armament haki were not a thing back then.
So Shanks couldn't save Luffy without sacrificing his arm back then.

But retroactively, it is amongst the biggest inconsistencies in OP.

Herrera is right here:
Shanks saving Luffy risking nothing is nowhere near as much of a motivator as Shanks giving up an arm for Luffy. It’s just dramatic effect.

It’s reasonable to consider it a retcon, sure, but it still works either way. Shanks was a billion berry pirate at that point.
WB the strongest man in the world himself said he wondered what kind of enemy could claim Shanks’ arm.
Oda was clearly going for it to be a dramatic thing for Luffy to feel indebted to Shanks, whether he came up with it afterwards or not
 
H

Herrera95

Shanks saving Luffy risking nothing is nowhere near as much of a motivator as Shanks giving up an arm for Luffy. It’s just dramatic effect.

It’s reasonable to consider it a retcon, sure, but it still works either way. Shanks was a billion berry pirate at that point.
WB the strongest man in the world himself said he wondered what kind of enemy could claim Shanks’ arm.
Oda was clearly going for it to be a dramatic thing for Luffy to feel indebted to Shanks, whether he came up with it afterwards or not
Motivator? You think Luffy is motivated because Shanks give up his arm? He never brought that up. Luffy was motivated because he already thought Shanks was cool before it. It has nothing to do with him saving Luffy and even less by giving his arm.

Have you ever read Oda talking about that scene? His original scene didn't had Shanks losing an arm. That was editor choice to have the scene more dramatic. You could address that as a scene like Luffy and Kid being one shotted. Scenes that should never happen and was only made for dramatic purposes. But since they are there we have to work with them.

Just like Shanks scaring Sea King wasn't CoC at time it was just a common shonen scene that a strong character easily scares a weaker one. By CoC development we had on history we can easily address to Shanks unlocking his CoC on this very scene. Way similar to what Luffy did against wolfs at Impel Down protecting Mr 2. And we can also easily guess Shanks didn't not have any kind of haki because he couldn't use his CoC to save Luffy from bandits. Couldn't use his CoO to predict what would happen or where that bandit ran away with Luffy and couldn't use his CoA to protect himself from Sea King.

Finally, Film Red is filler. Put that shit on your mind. ONLY MANGA IS CANON!
 
Motivator? You think Luffy is motivated because Shanks give up his arm? He never brought that up. Luffy was motivated because he already thought Shanks was cool before it. It has nothing to do with him saving Luffy and even less by giving his arm.

Have you ever read Oda talking about that scene? His original scene didn't had Shanks losing an arm. That was editor choice to have the scene more dramatic. You could address that as a scene like Luffy and Kid being one shotted. Scenes that should never happen and was only made for dramatic purposes. But since they are there we have to work with them.

Just like Shanks scaring Sea King wasn't CoC at time it was just a common shonen scene that a strong character easily scares a weaker one. By CoC development we had on history we can easily address to Shanks unlocking his CoC on this very scene. Way similar to what Luffy did against wolfs at Impel Down protecting Mr 2. And we can also easily guess Shanks didn't not have any kind of haki because he couldn't use his CoC to save Luffy from bandits. Couldn't use his CoO to predict what would happen or where that bandit ran away with Luffy and couldn't use his CoA to protect himself from Sea King.

Finally, Film Red is filler. Put that shit on your mind. ONLY MANGA IS CANON!
I agree only manga is canon.
The first chapter of one piece is a different manga from what One Piece became, but in the first chapter Shanks gets eaten and then scares Lor D. COAST, in the same chapter Luffy defeats the monster.
I still think the act was deliberate for Shanks,, but only his agenda being revealed will prove it.
 
H

Herrera95

I agree only manga is canon.
The first chapter of one piece is a different manga from what One Piece became, but in the first chapter Shanks gets eaten and then scares Lor D. COAST, in the same chapter Luffy defeats the monster.
I still think the act was deliberate for Shanks,, but only his agenda being revealed will prove it.
Like I said. Oda specifically saying that it was editors choice and not him should already debunk that. But let's wait and see.
 
Imagine Luffy pullling up this shit against Doflamingo or Lucci or Crocodile.
He did.


I even acknowledged that OP has it's share of gags. But till Wano, Oda knew when to get serious and when to throw in gags. For the most part, gags never felt out of place.
It only falls out of place for those who don't understand the core of One Piece. Core being that Toony humor has been around since the beginning and that there is no better reveal that to create both a strong character and a toon at the same time. Gear 5 is perfectly placed for those who understand this core value.


Man, it's almost like you're just arguing to argue here
You are doing that. You are just arguing for the reason that you can't accept that ridiculousness can have a place during a final battle. That's called conservatism. You see all manga being edgy and you say to yourself that One Piece should be like that. One Piece is not like that. Never was, never will be. That's what makes One Piece, One Piece.


Gags and jokes weren't the focus and the entire essence of the fight
They were.

Going full dumb all fight is different.
I don't know were you see that the entire fight with Kaido is full joky, I remember clearly the end of the fight being clear strike serious.

So let's stop lying for the sake of trying to be right okay ?


yes G5 vs Kaido was a joke.
This was the point. A big joke by Oda, and that's why that fight is so good.


Just because the final attack itself was serious, doesn't mean the fight as a whole was. You have one punch being serious, versus the rest of the fight being toon nonsense.
Why the hell could a fight not be cloony ? What's up with this conservatism BS ?



What is not ok is cherry picking prior events to gaslight others into believing that Luffy fight were always like this, when they clearly weren't.

Me:
In prior fights, vast majority of the fight was serious and didn't actively dehype or de-escalate the situation, with some gags sprinkled here and there
You:
Look at this one off gag in prior fights. Look at the final attack of G5 being serious. Luffy's past fights and G5 are equivalent! Why do you find problem with G5 then??
The entire gear 5 transformation is to bring up to light the concept of freedom through a power up and for Luffy, Freedom is laughing first. So yeah.. This is normal to have more joke in that type of context.


And no, I wasn't expecting it to be like Nartuo/DBz, I was just pointing out how ridiculous it would be to have SAGA villains to be treated as a joke.
This is complete conservatism BS. No where is it stated that ennemy being taken seriously was the epitemon of good storytelling.


when G2, G3 and G4 were not gags?
Those WERE gags, you just took them too seriously.


Where is Luffy joking around in G4? Right, there is no joking around, it was a serious fight against Doflamingo.
G4 was the joke
:lawsigh:

You ignore the entire fight being serious, Luffy speech before using G4 being serious.
And just cherry pick the part where G4 is inflated and bouncing around..............well, that is simply what G4 is. It is a mode where Luffy inflate himself, and simultaneously compress himself using armament haki to maintain high pressure. Hence spring force
Again, there was no good context to create entire jokes around the fight. Gear 5 is different because the whole point was about that transformation.



Why would the announcer he rallying a demoralized population with Luffy's accomplishments, cheering for your last hope to get back up, with the fodder attempting to buy time putting their life on the line be a gag?

That dude is an announcer, that is his way of trying to motivate a desperate and demoralized population.

There is zero gag going on here.
That entire fight is constructed like a ring match, THAT's the joke. Sigh..


Man, the simplest answer just that Oda didn't plan so far ahead, and concepts like armament haki were not a thing back then.
So Shanks couldn't save Luffy without sacrificing his arm back then.

But retroactively, it is amongst the biggest inconsistencies in OP.
Or human are not machines and Shanks just lost an arm because he was panicked and didn't pay attention to himself but to Luffy ?

There was Literally a wave of Haki in the same page.


I said the entire essence of GEAR 5 was gags and jokes.
No, its freedom.


"Gags and jokes weren't the focus and the entire essence of the fight. There is a massive difference between gags and troll being the focus/essence of the fight with main villain being trolled, vs them being sprinkled here and there. "
Because context.


The giant hand is simply G3. You simply can't be calling that a gag
Yes we can, when its directly inspired by toons work.

Yes, Luffy vs Kaido was being built up well, and then G5 ruined it.
Nop. gear 5 just enhanced it. Nothing was destroyed here. The freedom of gear 5 is the pinnacle of what Oda created for 20+ years its the mix of epic, strong and funny. Its freedom in the most beautiful ecrin its amazing from a storytelling point of view.


Yes, it's ridiculous, because none of the other main saga villains were turned into jokes and have the tension de-escalate.
Again with the conservatism.

No tension was deescalated. Kaido directly showed us that gear 5 alone wasn't enough to beat him.

This was one of the reasons Morj was behind the "raid will fail". Because he couldn't believe that the tension and stakes were just increasingly diminishing as the arc went by
No the real reason was because we were in act three when most people thought they would be 5 act. Again, the tension didn't deescalate.
 
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