Character Discussion Rate Zoro as a Character compared to other Shonen Characters
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Nah, he only says his job is to beat up the final boss… he says Zoro’s job is “swords”… That’s it
I’m gonna address some points @HellBlazer04 made
I too found it bizarre how little Luffy have a shit when Zoro got mangled by a combined emperor attack… And it was weird how law and Kid are the only people who have a shit while Luffy barely reacted like anything happened at all
like sure, maybe Oda doesn’t want to draw every character reacting every time something happens to any other character but then it gets weird when Kid and law have reactions and specifically Luffy doesn’t have one
I think a big problem with all this is how Zoro getting fucked up was used in the story. It had no effect on Luffy, as shown by the lack of reaction. It had no effect on Zoro after the war since he was fine after a week. It was badly written out with that dumb mink drug shit just so that Zoro could actually have a fight he could win against king. It teased the grim reaper shit didn’t matter.
there are general problems with the Luffy and Zoro dynamic that I elaborated on a few posts back and those are problems that come from Oda’s intended desire for Luffy to steal Zoro’s thunder at every turn. This isn’t an accident. Oda wants to have Luffy make Zoro look inferior so that Luffy looks better in comparison. That’s what he intends to happen in their dynamic.
What he doesn’t intend is what Hellblazer picked up on, that Zoro is held back from his dream by Luffy. I bet Oda thinks Zoro cannot a hive his dream without Luffy. The problem with this tho and why hellblazer bleieve what he believes is that this is badly written.
because of how little is elaborated about how Zoro accomplishes his dream and how Luffy even factors into it, when Zoro does shit like hey fucked to by Hakai, it seems as though Zoro is putting his neck on the line for some guy who doesn’t give a shit and isn’t worth it
I’m gonna address some points @HellBlazer04 made
I too found it bizarre how little Luffy have a shit when Zoro got mangled by a combined emperor attack… And it was weird how law and Kid are the only people who have a shit while Luffy barely reacted like anything happened at all
like sure, maybe Oda doesn’t want to draw every character reacting every time something happens to any other character but then it gets weird when Kid and law have reactions and specifically Luffy doesn’t have one
I think a big problem with all this is how Zoro getting fucked up was used in the story. It had no effect on Luffy, as shown by the lack of reaction. It had no effect on Zoro after the war since he was fine after a week. It was badly written out with that dumb mink drug shit just so that Zoro could actually have a fight he could win against king. It teased the grim reaper shit didn’t matter.
there are general problems with the Luffy and Zoro dynamic that I elaborated on a few posts back and those are problems that come from Oda’s intended desire for Luffy to steal Zoro’s thunder at every turn. This isn’t an accident. Oda wants to have Luffy make Zoro look inferior so that Luffy looks better in comparison. That’s what he intends to happen in their dynamic.
What he doesn’t intend is what Hellblazer picked up on, that Zoro is held back from his dream by Luffy. I bet Oda thinks Zoro cannot a hive his dream without Luffy. The problem with this tho and why hellblazer bleieve what he believes is that this is badly written.
because of how little is elaborated about how Zoro accomplishes his dream and how Luffy even factors into it, when Zoro does shit like hey fucked to by Hakai, it seems as though Zoro is putting his neck on the line for some guy who doesn’t give a shit and isn’t worth it
The situation is not at all the same thing you fucking moron. Luffy is a man of action especially in a fight, tthe yonkos woupfnt let those fuckers rest and care about the wounded. Luffy would have been an idiot to let Zoro's opening go to waste and it would have been entirely out of character for him to do so and you know this, right? Also, how the fuck has Zoro given up on his dreams when he consistently gets stronger and stronger in each arc and ready to fight against Mihawk? Sure he doesnt encounter that many strong swordsman, but that doesnt mean he's not getting to his dreams...dummy. If Zoro hadnt encountered Luffy, you bet your ass he would havr stayed in Paradise and stay fodder because Luffy always attracts strong opponents to him and Zoro profits from thag by fighting them with him. How can you not understand that?
I think you are mixing up a lot of things. Firstly I don't say that Oda did not mess up a lot of plot lines, specially one's connected to Zoro. Post TS has had too much Luffy focus, agreed, but then he is the MC. This is probably the third time that Zoro has declared his ambition post TS (no other SHP has probably had it other than Zoro post TS), first it was in FI and then in DR. However, none of those moments hold that weight, most people don't even remember those. In fact throughout OP, no other character/SHP has declared their dream as much as Zoro (after Luffy of course).
Zoro came to Onigashima to cut the strongest/toughest (Kaido) and in his first attempt he did pretty well but not as much as he hoped. Why does Kaido ask Zoro about CoC/ACoC? Why does Zoro reply that he does not understand what Kaido is talking about and just gave everything he had? Why is Zoro trying to stabilize his haki? In fact the whole Enma thing of being afraid of losing control of Enma and trying to stabilize/maintain it? And then we get literal confirmation that King is even tougher than Kaido by King himself (most people were trying to downplay but since Egghead this has been accepted by most). And Zoro proceeds to cut King (tougher then the rumored toughest) by going all out with his haki, not limiting himself/trying to stabilize, and in this process understands that his ambition is indeed a Kingly Ambition? The answer to Kaido's question and then declares himself as King of Hell.
Are there a lot of the plot lines/moments that Zoro could have and should have gotten, absolutely, but saying he got none is just bullshit.
Zoro came to Onigashima to cut the strongest/toughest (Kaido) and in his first attempt he did pretty well but not as much as he hoped. Why does Kaido ask Zoro about CoC/ACoC? Why does Zoro reply that he does not understand what Kaido is talking about and just gave everything he had? Why is Zoro trying to stabilize his haki? In fact the whole Enma thing of being afraid of losing control of Enma and trying to stabilize/maintain it? And then we get literal confirmation that King is even tougher than Kaido by King himself (most people were trying to downplay but since Egghead this has been accepted by most). And Zoro proceeds to cut King (tougher then the rumored toughest) by going all out with his haki, not limiting himself/trying to stabilize, and in this process understands that his ambition is indeed a Kingly Ambition? The answer to Kaido's question and then declares himself as King of Hell.
Are there a lot of the plot lines/moments that Zoro could have and should have gotten, absolutely, but saying he got none is just bullshit.
NOTE: Zoro never cuts king with his flame on… In fact in Egghead, Soro says lunarians are invincible and when their flames are on… So King having more durability than Kaido doesn’t matter since Zoro NEVER ACTUALLY OVERCOMES this durability… Zoro beats King by finding the genetic loophole in his durability and King being the stupid idiot who turns off his invincibility to “gain speed”… Kaido remains the toughest thing Zoro has ever cut
Zoro has declaiming his dream to be WSS and then gaining control of AdvCoC at the same time isn’t character development… it looks like this should be a big deal that Zoro is gaining a superpower alongside his declaration of ambition but it isn’t a character arc.
you’re saying Zoro moving from being unsure of whether he has CoC to then using AdvCoC constitutes a character arc but the problem is that Zoro still doesn’t know whether he has CoC… To this day… Remember that even after he knocked out fodder around him, King asks him about kingly ambition and Zoro still has a question mark… Zoro to this day is written with so little awareness that he still doesn’t know he has CoC
Zoro has declaiming his dream to be WSS and then gaining control of AdvCoC at the same time isn’t character development… it looks like this should be a big deal that Zoro is gaining a superpower alongside his declaration of ambition but it isn’t a character arc.
you’re saying Zoro moving from being unsure of whether he has CoC to then using AdvCoC constitutes a character arc but the problem is that Zoro still doesn’t know whether he has CoC… To this day… Remember that even after he knocked out fodder around him, King asks him about kingly ambition and Zoro still has a question mark… Zoro to this day is written with so little awareness that he still doesn’t know he has CoC
Because Oda had the opportunity with a 150 chapter arc to write Zoro a story arc appropriate for his popularity AND HE DID NOT
Remember that Oda does in fact Do this… He does change the focus of his story based on the popularity of a character… Law became basically the deuteragonist of One piece from punk hazard to Dressrosa specifically because he was popular… Oda admitted that’s why he did it
So it’s extra bizarre that Wano was so badly done for Zoro considering this is THE LAST showcase arc Zoro will ever have…it’s over now… Now Zoro is left with fights, and that’s it… there is no longer any space for like an actual character specific story for Zoro in an arc now
And I know the rebuttal to this, you’re gonna say “What if Oda didn’t know he was writing Zoro badly”
This is where now my own theories come in… It is possible that Oda just didn’t know he was writing this badly, since he wrote a whole lot of of their things badly in the arc without knowing he was doing so… That’s possible… But I feel as though the Zoro specific bad writing IS INTENTIONAL
I think For Zoro he was intentionally writing him to get shit on by Luffy because Oda also writes in teases for people’s expectations. It is a fact that Oda knows people were interested in the Kitetsu swords… He wouldn’t have written like 3 separate panels of Zoro wanting Nidai Kitetsu if he didn’t know that the audience would also want Zoro to use Nidai Kitetsu… and so Oda’s decision to not allow Zoro to get what he wants, and then have Luffy just use Nidai as a gag is intentional.
Oda knows about people’s expectations regarding Zoro’s plot lines, Nidai, Ryuma, gathering the samurai, cutting down Kaido, Zoro’s lineage… Oda knows what people want with these storylines… And Oda even teases the audience regarding these storylines by referencing them… And then Oda systematically has Luffy shit on Zoro over and over again in all his expected plot lines… At times Oda even has both Zoro and Luffy in dialdirectly address how much Zoro sucks and how much better Luffy is in these specific things that Oda was trading for Zoro
this is written too intentionally IMO for it to be Oda’s regular brand of bad writing… Oda wants to leverage people’s expectations of Zoro to show that Luffy being better than Zoro in Zoro’s own plot lines makes Luffy an even better character.
So why? Why is Oda intentionally dunking on the second most popular character in the series yet whenkk no other character get popular like Law, they get an almost main character level of writing?
i had this question in my mind for months until Oda’s interviews regarding the One Piece live action came out. Oda is obsessed with making One piece big in the west… He wants it to be more popular in the west
So it’s extra weird that Oda shits on Zoro, the most popular character in the west… Unless that’s the point… In Oda’s mind, in order to make one piece popular in the west, Luffy must be become the most popular character in the west, and the only way of doing that, is by presenting Luffy as superior in every way to the current most popular character in the west, Zoro.
Remember that Oda does in fact Do this… He does change the focus of his story based on the popularity of a character… Law became basically the deuteragonist of One piece from punk hazard to Dressrosa specifically because he was popular… Oda admitted that’s why he did it
So it’s extra bizarre that Wano was so badly done for Zoro considering this is THE LAST showcase arc Zoro will ever have…it’s over now… Now Zoro is left with fights, and that’s it… there is no longer any space for like an actual character specific story for Zoro in an arc now
And I know the rebuttal to this, you’re gonna say “What if Oda didn’t know he was writing Zoro badly”
This is where now my own theories come in… It is possible that Oda just didn’t know he was writing this badly, since he wrote a whole lot of of their things badly in the arc without knowing he was doing so… That’s possible… But I feel as though the Zoro specific bad writing IS INTENTIONAL
I think For Zoro he was intentionally writing him to get shit on by Luffy because Oda also writes in teases for people’s expectations. It is a fact that Oda knows people were interested in the Kitetsu swords… He wouldn’t have written like 3 separate panels of Zoro wanting Nidai Kitetsu if he didn’t know that the audience would also want Zoro to use Nidai Kitetsu… and so Oda’s decision to not allow Zoro to get what he wants, and then have Luffy just use Nidai as a gag is intentional.
Oda knows about people’s expectations regarding Zoro’s plot lines, Nidai, Ryuma, gathering the samurai, cutting down Kaido, Zoro’s lineage… Oda knows what people want with these storylines… And Oda even teases the audience regarding these storylines by referencing them… And then Oda systematically has Luffy shit on Zoro over and over again in all his expected plot lines… At times Oda even has both Zoro and Luffy in dialdirectly address how much Zoro sucks and how much better Luffy is in these specific things that Oda was trading for Zoro
this is written too intentionally IMO for it to be Oda’s regular brand of bad writing… Oda wants to leverage people’s expectations of Zoro to show that Luffy being better than Zoro in Zoro’s own plot lines makes Luffy an even better character.
So why? Why is Oda intentionally dunking on the second most popular character in the series yet whenkk no other character get popular like Law, they get an almost main character level of writing?
i had this question in my mind for months until Oda’s interviews regarding the One Piece live action came out. Oda is obsessed with making One piece big in the west… He wants it to be more popular in the west
So it’s extra weird that Oda shits on Zoro, the most popular character in the west… Unless that’s the point… In Oda’s mind, in order to make one piece popular in the west, Luffy must be become the most popular character in the west, and the only way of doing that, is by presenting Luffy as superior in every way to the current most popular character in the west, Zoro.
Oda's focus was always on Luffy so i dont really get your point.
According to your reasoning that Zoro/Luffy popularity was always a tough situation for Oda and didnt like this, he had already an answer to that "problem" and you already mentioned it, it was Law during DR, but right after the DR/Zou he didnt focus on him anymore and Zoro got back to 2nd place so this "Oda doesnt like Zoro's popularity" dont make sense.
Idk if he did all these intentionally or because he spent so much time in Wano and wanted to gtfo of there asap so he let Ryuma's grave and Kitetsu plot lines for the future through a flashback. The only thing i agree with you is the Ryuma parallel.
According to your reasoning that Zoro/Luffy popularity was always a tough situation for Oda and didnt like this, he had already an answer to that "problem" and you already mentioned it, it was Law during DR, but right after the DR/Zou he didnt focus on him anymore and Zoro got back to 2nd place so this "Oda doesnt like Zoro's popularity" dont make sense.
Idk if he did all these intentionally or because he spent so much time in Wano and wanted to gtfo of there asap so he let Ryuma's grave and Kitetsu plot lines for the future through a flashback. The only thing i agree with you is the Ryuma parallel.
Luffy was the focus in Thriller bark, and in Ennies Lobby, and even in Baratie… In fact in Baratie Luffy and Sanji had more focus than Zoro
but notice that in all those other arcs where once again Luffy was the focus, Zoro was not written as having to get shit on by Luffy and Zoro maintained actual specific storylines and character moments for himself
it is in fact possible to write Luffy as the main character without specifically shitting on the supporting characters… like Luffy didn’t beat Kuma or Mihawk after Zoro failed to… When Zoro told Luffy he’d leave the crew if Luffy just accepted Usopp back with no apology, Luffy didn’t just say “LoL fuck you” and accept Usopp back… It is possible not to shit on Zoro’s actions and plot lines and what Zoro says and wants and wants to do just because Luffy is the main character… So when it happens OVER AND OVER AGAIN in Wano, it is definitely intentional
the Wano situation is specifically atrocious because THIS IS IT FOR ZORO… I want you to understand this… Zoro is done… The samurai and swordsman arc, the one where he gains CoC (the only power that is directly connected to character development yet for Zoro he gets CoC with no character development), this is the arc that we literally learn Zoro’s entire fucking family lineage… It’s over… This is it…
Oda decided that the last showcase of Zoro as a character with any level of story importance in an arc was best utilized as a hype tool for Luffy.
Yes it’s just a theory on my part that Oda did this because of popularity but honestly I cannot find another reason why? Like I don’t think Oda hates Zoro, he doesn’t hate any of his characters… So I can only conclude that this very intentional waste of 150 chapters must have served some greater purpose in Oda’s head
but notice that in all those other arcs where once again Luffy was the focus, Zoro was not written as having to get shit on by Luffy and Zoro maintained actual specific storylines and character moments for himself
it is in fact possible to write Luffy as the main character without specifically shitting on the supporting characters… like Luffy didn’t beat Kuma or Mihawk after Zoro failed to… When Zoro told Luffy he’d leave the crew if Luffy just accepted Usopp back with no apology, Luffy didn’t just say “LoL fuck you” and accept Usopp back… It is possible not to shit on Zoro’s actions and plot lines and what Zoro says and wants and wants to do just because Luffy is the main character… So when it happens OVER AND OVER AGAIN in Wano, it is definitely intentional
the Wano situation is specifically atrocious because THIS IS IT FOR ZORO… I want you to understand this… Zoro is done… The samurai and swordsman arc, the one where he gains CoC (the only power that is directly connected to character development yet for Zoro he gets CoC with no character development), this is the arc that we literally learn Zoro’s entire fucking family lineage… It’s over… This is it…
Oda decided that the last showcase of Zoro as a character with any level of story importance in an arc was best utilized as a hype tool for Luffy.
Yes it’s just a theory on my part that Oda did this because of popularity but honestly I cannot find another reason why? Like I don’t think Oda hates Zoro, he doesn’t hate any of his characters… So I can only conclude that this very intentional waste of 150 chapters must have served some greater purpose in Oda’s head
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I think the main problem is that many Zoro fans had high expectations about Zoro's lineage, his character development etc etc during Wano and thats why you/they are so disappointed.
Luckily enough i knew that Oda treats Zoro (esp post ts) as your typical badass support protagonist w/o focusing too much on him and i had no problem with what happened, besides from the Ryuma thing.
Luckily enough i knew that Oda treats Zoro (esp post ts) as your typical badass support protagonist w/o focusing too much on him and i had no problem with what happened, besides from the Ryuma thing.
At the bare minimum, pre time skip level of writing
like pre time skip at the start of Thriller bark, brook says his shadow is inside Ryuma, a legendary samurai… Zoro hears this at the start of the arc… He then says to brook I will help you get your shadow back and I’m interested in this samurai’s sword
these are thing Zoro says he wants at the start of arc, and then he does them… He is the one that gets Brook’s shadow back, and he does in fact manage to acquire Ryuma’s sword like he said he wanted to.
in thriller bark, Zoro was cool sword guy… Just like you said
but notice that Cool Sword guy Zoro said he wanted to do something, AND THEN DID THE THING HE WANTED TO DO
This is so basic as a writing thing that I think a lot of people don’t even register that how ridiculous it is that Zoro DIDNT EVEN GET THIS IN WANO
Zoro wants Shusui after it’s stolen from him, he says he wants his sword back, he doesn’t get it… he is written uncharacteristically weird to have him just go along with swapping his stolen sword… Then Zoro says he wants to at least visit where his sword was laid to rest (this is a thing he did in Thriller bark with his other sword that got destroyed in ennies lobbu), and Zoro did do that either in wano
Zoro wants Nidai Kitetsu, he doesn’t get it… Zoro wants to learn about black blades from Onimaru, he doesn’t… Zoro wants to avenge Yasu, he doesn’t… Zoro wants to cut down Kaido, he doesn’t… Zoro wants to gather the samurai, he doesn’t
I mean maybe in your head these things Zoro says he wants to do are too unimportant or too in some cases TOO IMPORTANT for Zoro to be given panel space to do… But I hope you see at least there is a problem with ZORO SAYING HE WANTS TO DO SOMETHING, AND THEN ZORO DOESNT DO THE THING HE SAYS HE WANTS TO DO
The most significant things regarding Zoro’s character in the entire Wano arc are things Zoro doesn’t care about or isn’t aware of at all… those being Zoro’s lineage, and Zoro obtaining CoC… isn’t that ridiculous, Zoro to this day seemingly still doesn’t know he has CoC… Zoro isn’t even worth the minimal character development every CoC user gets when they unlock CoC… Zoro doesn’t even know he has it
it’s utterly ridiculous that people asking for just Pre time skip levels of Zoro writing is too much now
like pre time skip at the start of Thriller bark, brook says his shadow is inside Ryuma, a legendary samurai… Zoro hears this at the start of the arc… He then says to brook I will help you get your shadow back and I’m interested in this samurai’s sword
these are thing Zoro says he wants at the start of arc, and then he does them… He is the one that gets Brook’s shadow back, and he does in fact manage to acquire Ryuma’s sword like he said he wanted to.
in thriller bark, Zoro was cool sword guy… Just like you said
but notice that Cool Sword guy Zoro said he wanted to do something, AND THEN DID THE THING HE WANTED TO DO
This is so basic as a writing thing that I think a lot of people don’t even register that how ridiculous it is that Zoro DIDNT EVEN GET THIS IN WANO
Zoro wants Shusui after it’s stolen from him, he says he wants his sword back, he doesn’t get it… he is written uncharacteristically weird to have him just go along with swapping his stolen sword… Then Zoro says he wants to at least visit where his sword was laid to rest (this is a thing he did in Thriller bark with his other sword that got destroyed in ennies lobbu), and Zoro did do that either in wano
Zoro wants Nidai Kitetsu, he doesn’t get it… Zoro wants to learn about black blades from Onimaru, he doesn’t… Zoro wants to avenge Yasu, he doesn’t… Zoro wants to cut down Kaido, he doesn’t… Zoro wants to gather the samurai, he doesn’t
I mean maybe in your head these things Zoro says he wants to do are too unimportant or too in some cases TOO IMPORTANT for Zoro to be given panel space to do… But I hope you see at least there is a problem with ZORO SAYING HE WANTS TO DO SOMETHING, AND THEN ZORO DOESNT DO THE THING HE SAYS HE WANTS TO DO
The most significant things regarding Zoro’s character in the entire Wano arc are things Zoro doesn’t care about or isn’t aware of at all… those being Zoro’s lineage, and Zoro obtaining CoC… isn’t that ridiculous, Zoro to this day seemingly still doesn’t know he has CoC… Zoro isn’t even worth the minimal character development every CoC user gets when they unlock CoC… Zoro doesn’t even know he has it
it’s utterly ridiculous that people asking for just Pre time skip levels of Zoro writing is too much now
