Controversial General Political Discussion
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Well.. that's a logical assertion.
If Nazi consider your work to be worthy of being shared to their sympathizers... you might wanna reconsider or at least recheck what you are working on.
This video precisely demonstrate that this assertion is fallacious. You can't separate values from the scientific process, its impossible.
And if you try to do that.. well.. you will have good chances to be shared by Nazis.
Are you certain about that assertion mate ? Do you think Nazi really care about social sciences or the reality of biology (for example) ? Remember that Nazi claimed to observe scientific proof of the hierarchy in the human "races"... You might wanna reconsider your statement "surely nazis supported all kinda legit science"...
.. i afraid to consider what this statement is making you right now...
I read what you are saying mate, that's precisely the problem.
Its the same reliability. There is no hierarchization between scientific disciplines when clear results and conclusions are being reviewed and published. Your statement is anti scientific.
There are solutions and measures for that don't worry:
https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/unaccompanied-children-2.pdf
What kind of problem ?
Is there an impossibility to pass on knowledge and education ? If that's the case there might be indeed a problem of structure. But the language barrier will never be the reason for it. There are always others political and more structural reasons.
Funnily enough, I think Leonardo - as open minded as he was - would have approved those kind of actions and even helped them in some ways.. I'm sure he would have been the kind of man to understand the issue and create a beautiful painting just for the sake of it being spashed by paint or soup. After all, what is art if not disruption ?
Sure..
Because there is no other evidences of Dawkins strangely following those kind of ideologies...
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/richard-dawkins-downs-syndrome-disability-b1848956.html
Let me rephrase that :
Priviledged people were unable to see the work of one of the biggest disruptor this planet has ever carried and were "forced" to see "a disruptive act of activism" by two women trying to bring attention on the fact that 1 out of 3 french skip meal because of poverty and that farmers are dying while working..
But keep thinking that this is a "vanity display"
:cheers:
Well, I would walk on the stage and scream with them or at least applaud them of course ! Why missing an occasion to make people understand that a literal genocide is happening ?
The avengers waited 5 years, they can wait one more day don't worry.
Those are the same things. There is no activism if its not annoying.
The purpose is to break the status co and the inaction. Breaking those things is always annoying.. what are you talking about mate ?
Indeed
Yes they did. Unless you are talking about this one:
(but I don't think it was a leftist militant act
)
If Nazi consider your work to be worthy of being shared to their sympathizers... you might wanna reconsider or at least recheck what you are working on.
This video precisely demonstrate that this assertion is fallacious. You can't separate values from the scientific process, its impossible.
And if you try to do that.. well.. you will have good chances to be shared by Nazis.
Are you certain about that assertion mate ? Do you think Nazi really care about social sciences or the reality of biology (for example) ? Remember that Nazi claimed to observe scientific proof of the hierarchy in the human "races"... You might wanna reconsider your statement "surely nazis supported all kinda legit science"...
.. i afraid to consider what this statement is making you right now...
I read what you are saying mate, that's precisely the problem.
Its the same reliability. There is no hierarchization between scientific disciplines when clear results and conclusions are being reviewed and published. Your statement is anti scientific.
There are solutions and measures for that don't worry:
https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/unaccompanied-children-2.pdf
What kind of problem ?
Is there an impossibility to pass on knowledge and education ? If that's the case there might be indeed a problem of structure. But the language barrier will never be the reason for it. There are always others political and more structural reasons.
Funnily enough, I think Leonardo - as open minded as he was - would have approved those kind of actions and even helped them in some ways.. I'm sure he would have been the kind of man to understand the issue and create a beautiful painting just for the sake of it being spashed by paint or soup. After all, what is art if not disruption ?
Sure..
Because there is no other evidences of Dawkins strangely following those kind of ideologies...
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/richard-dawkins-downs-syndrome-disability-b1848956.html
Let me rephrase that :
Priviledged people were unable to see the work of one of the biggest disruptor this planet has ever carried and were "forced" to see "a disruptive act of activism" by two women trying to bring attention on the fact that 1 out of 3 french skip meal because of poverty and that farmers are dying while working..
But keep thinking that this is a "vanity display"
:cheers:
Well, I would walk on the stage and scream with them or at least applaud them of course ! Why missing an occasion to make people understand that a literal genocide is happening ?
The avengers waited 5 years, they can wait one more day don't worry.
Those are the same things. There is no activism if its not annoying.
The purpose is to break the status co and the inaction. Breaking those things is always annoying.. what are you talking about mate ?
Indeed
Yes they did. Unless you are talking about this one:
(but I don't think it was a leftist militant act
)
Science is not leftist, its leftism that is scientific.
Science doesn't negate leftism as leftism is just following scientific conclusions... with progressist values on top.
ok so if science follows an idealogy
then it literally only has a value insofar as you personally like that idealogy if my stance being progressive values are wrong
and im to prefer y idealogy over yours then objectively speaking anti science really has as much value as pro science or vice versa afterall it's just a idealogy
ideologies are just belief systems so if your basis for a belief is the bible
your like a christian fundamentalist or some shit
and im a pro science/pro progressive dude
and im to tell a person they should convert to my belief
why should such a person ever convert if both are just beliefs, nothing is any more factual then the other
if it's just values and one person's values are different then who cares, by your logic anything has the same objective value
so if you disagree or not ultimately just depends on your own personal belief
it's not anything with facts, it's just which reglion you buy into
that's how you make it sound carrot
your like a christian fundamentalist or some shit
and im a pro science/pro progressive dude
and im to tell a person they should convert to my belief
why should such a person ever convert if both are just beliefs, nothing is any more factual then the other
if it's just values and one person's values are different then who cares, by your logic anything has the same objective value
so if you disagree or not ultimately just depends on your own personal belief
it's not anything with facts, it's just which reglion you buy into
that's how you make it sound carrot
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Nah thats a nonsequitur. What happens is just that people will use science for their ideology. Not just nazis btw. The same research could be used/exploited by different political groups. That doesnt change the facts of the research and should be irrelevant for scientists in the pursuit of knowledge
Except its not. I dont care if nazis support the earth being a spheroid, it just is.
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Except its not. I dont care if nazis support the earth being a spheroid, it just is.
Then you understood i was talking about other users opinions here and not mine?
Sigh. Sadly the only part of this relevant to what i was saying shares a link that isnt working anymore.
You need translators to teach them english. A regular english teacher cant communicate with immigrant pupils at worst. In practice this just isnt an easy task, no matter how much you wanna sugarcoat it. Which is why schools sometimes struggle with this.
Yes, refugee children put in regular classes pretty much dont get anything that is being taught in regular lessons. In the school I worked at, they sat in regular classes most of the time and just left for special german classes once to twice a week. Most regular teachers arent qualified to deal with this situation, resulting in frustration in both the teachers and the refugee children. The same is sometimes true for children with disabilities, depending on whether they have a social worker assigned to them or not. Couple decades ago germany had special schools for disabled pupils but eventually got rid of them for the most part, putting the in regular classes without enough social workers and teachers again not qualified to deal with it (as that simply wasnt part of standard teacher training)
Depends on the art and the artists intend
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Sigh. Sadly the only part of this relevant to what i was saying shares a link that isnt working anymore.
You need translators to teach them english. A regular english teacher cant communicate with immigrant pupils at worst. In practice this just isnt an easy task, no matter how much you wanna sugarcoat it. Which is why schools sometimes struggle with this.
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Yes, refugee children put in regular classes pretty much dont get anything that is being taught in regular lessons. In the school I worked at, they sat in regular classes most of the time and just left for special german classes once to twice a week. Most regular teachers arent qualified to deal with this situation, resulting in frustration in both the teachers and the refugee children. The same is sometimes true for children with disabilities, depending on whether they have a social worker assigned to them or not. Couple decades ago germany had special schools for disabled pupils but eventually got rid of them for the most part, putting the in regular classes without enough social workers and teachers again not qualified to deal with it (as that simply wasnt part of standard teacher training)
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Depends on the art and the artists intend
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if you wanna include every immrigrant in a public school setting
good luck at having teachers teach anything
gonna have to have a 8 translators one for each foreigner
a jp translator
spainish one
french one and so on
and that's gonna be a pain in the ass cause every class gonna have to be done slowly to ensure the foreigners can keep up
not to mention how each class of foreigner in after school gonna stick to together as only the other immrigrants would speak the same langaute
lunch break consists of the japanese table, the mexican table and so on
Eugenics is about selective breeding, not doing abortions in the case of disabilities, which majority of people opt for if they know about the disability. Ironic considering you are fine with abortion in case of simple inconvenience for the mother (majority of abortions)
And in the quote about eugenics he states it is to be deplored, but it would still work just as well as on animals, which we have been doing for ages
Edit: also not sure what this has to do with his point about science working
Do you think transgender identities are legit?
What?
There needs to be a system where refugees/immigrants are taught the language before they are put in school. And it sometimes happens to an extent, and thats a good thing.
This can happen even if the people with migrant background can speak the language of the country
And in the quote about eugenics he states it is to be deplored, but it would still work just as well as on animals, which we have been doing for ages
Edit: also not sure what this has to do with his point about science working
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Do you think transgender identities are legit?
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What?
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There needs to be a system where refugees/immigrants are taught the language before they are put in school. And it sometimes happens to an extent, and thats a good thing.
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This can happen even if the people with migrant background can speak the language of the country
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Read what I say for F sake...
Its not science who follow an ideology its an ideology that follows science.
No you are not. If you were you would accept all scientific disciplines and not just the one that suits your believes.
No, what will happens is that people will make science with an ideology and therefore potentially create war crimes and crime against humanity like what happened during the 3rd reich. This is why we must prevent the scientific process to be used unethically or to justify problematic ideology. This is why we must keep ethical values in science and this is therefore why we can't separate science from politic.
Like, never.
This is not an ideology that was promoted politically. What was promoted is eugenism. This is when your ideologies are promoted in this domain by nazi that you need to start asking yourself questions.
Ok
They also did their own science.. through completely unethical means. Like I said, progress is a moral action, it doesn't mean that this is an action used with ethic or absence of it.
We are a social species, it means that we must keep people safe. Therefore we must also keep the scientific process ethic unlike what did those Nazis. To do that, we must keep doing science with ethical value and therefore we can't separate science from politic.
I'm sorry I'm tired, what was the subject here ?
Yes, and there are people and structures for that.
Then the problem lies in the structure that are still not well adapted enough.
Well.. fair. But you won't really see a lot of artist saying that they don't want to do something that creates strong emotions (what I mean by disruption)..
Eugenic is an ideology that is meant to improve the quality of the human gene through artificial selection at birth.
The problem is not abortion (that the choice of the parents). The problem is the ideology that those with conditions should not be seen as people worth living.
ANd yes, the choice is not Dawkins to make, its the parent's. Affirming that there is an immorality in the fact of not choosing abortion when we know that a child will be born with down's syndrom is purely eugenistic.
The point was to make you understand that researchers with a lack of value about a subject can be completely bias about their discipline and it can influence their researches and work.
Richard Dawkins is - for the moment - acclaimed by liberal scientist, american's skeptics and the liberal part of sceptics in France because he opposes religion and consider that science should not be linked with politic and values.. But those who take a wider look at the scientific process (the meta skeptics - those who are skeptics of the skeptical discipline and social science researcher) and the vision that those people have of science and its relation to politic know that Dawkins and his current scientific friends are heading toward the wrong way of the political spectrum... and will - if they don't stop radicalizing - start to promote conservative and antiscientific ideologies in the future.
This shouldn't take more that a decade now. (you can already see a few american skeptics and a lot of french skeptics radicalize and becoming "anti woke" and against the "leftists lobbies"). This, added to the fact that there is a new wave of far rightist adopting the pseudoscientific values of evo psy, will create a wave of far right radicalized influencers that will have a freeway in the media to spread bigoted rethoric in the future.
But that can be countered if they start to look at their work with a critical eye and understand the importance not pushing politic and values out of the scientific process.
Lul.
Yes, which he also said in the chain of tweets about this topic.
No its not, just you not understanding words again
So the bias is not caring about politics and values when it comes to doing research.
Which is perfectly fine imho. I as a scientist would conduct the research not caring about political implications either, because i care about the science, not the politics. Ideologues will exploit whatever science they see fit. this shouldnt hinder scientists in their pursuit of knowledge.
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Yes, which he also said in the chain of tweets about this topic.
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No its not, just you not understanding words again
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So the bias is not caring about politics and values when it comes to doing research.
Which is perfectly fine imho. I as a scientist would conduct the research not caring about political implications either, because i care about the science, not the politics. Ideologues will exploit whatever science they see fit. this shouldnt hinder scientists in their pursuit of knowledge.
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Logiko, my fellow pixelated proxy, I understand what you’re trying to say here, and I do think it holds some merit, but before you write off what I have to say I would like to say that while science and politics can and often has overlap does not mean that science in a vacuum is political.
Politics may be a strong motivator for what kind of research is prioritised and funded, this much is pretty much undeniable.
But what everyone is trying to tell you is that Scientists job is to research, study and develop better understanding of the subject matter.
The politicians decide what to do with those new technologies, not the scientists themselves.
It is very disingenuous to say that during wartime they were heavily focused on developing military arms and technologies to give them advantages in warfare. Yes, you may say that the scientists just as the politicians (or in this case the military leaders) shared goals and wanted to create weaponry to defeat their enemies - but you have to separate the academia from the academic.
Just because politics may decide what scientists, engineers and whatnot have to focus on, does not mean that science cannot exist without politics.
They are not mutually exclusive.
Politics may be a strong motivator for what kind of research is prioritised and funded, this much is pretty much undeniable.
But what everyone is trying to tell you is that Scientists job is to research, study and develop better understanding of the subject matter.
The politicians decide what to do with those new technologies, not the scientists themselves.
It is very disingenuous to say that during wartime they were heavily focused on developing military arms and technologies to give them advantages in warfare. Yes, you may say that the scientists just as the politicians (or in this case the military leaders) shared goals and wanted to create weaponry to defeat their enemies - but you have to separate the academia from the academic.
Just because politics may decide what scientists, engineers and whatnot have to focus on, does not mean that science cannot exist without politics.
They are not mutually exclusive.