Controversial Immigrants/Diaspora General Discussion Thread

[Logiko]

You are putting labels because you want to discredit anything anyone says against your beliefs.

Sometimes yes, most of the time, no

We mostly put labels because we want others (and you) to understand where your ideology stands on the political spectrum. We don't want toxic idea to become the norm so we replace them in their context.

Instead of people arguing the subject they try to throw shade along with appealing to emotion.

Oh but we do that also. In fact I did mostly that and all debater I faced either stopped talking or were banned. I've debunk everything on every subject here but you guys keep coming with missinformation and biased assertion, so I will keep coming at you until you stop.

Which are the disinformation you speak of ?

The desinformation is the spreading that immigration creates insecurity and that immigration is a problem. Its not.

You know why you say nonsense. Sweden is one of the most progressive countries with the most social and welfare benefits ,yet here we are turning whole cities into ghettos that you can't walk at night..with an alarming rate of increase in violence. So what marginalization you want to talk about ? What poverty ?

- First, source ?

- Second, no its not really progressive, it social democrats which is just the left wing of liberalism.

- Third, marginalization is due to systemic racism and liberalism in the world. Politics permited by capitalism. So those won't disappear with a simple social democrat gov just because there is a few social aids.

Poverty isn't something new nor are they suddenly the only ones affected by it.. Do you see all poor people around the world acting like this? I certainly don't.

Indeed, only the most tired ones act like this. But this is enough to create insecurity.

Insecurity is not the sign of bad people, its the sign of a bad system. If you can't understand the sociological logic in this simple data, you will never understand how to stop the problem.

If they act the same across a whole ass continent it isn't a marginalization problem

Who is "they" ? The F. are you talking about racist wannabee einstein ? Migrants are not the main factor of insecurity. Insecurity grows once people are starting to be integrated in society ! Those are the scientific facts !

If your country already has an issue with poverty with the people who are already living there, and culturally that poverty is leading to increase in gang violence. Why would you welcome more people from other countries who are in poverty and increase that issue in your country? Should you not clean yourself up first before trying to accept others to clean them up?

Because we are not worthy of being called "humans" if we stop to care for others the first moment we have a problem. Is that clear ?

Poverty is not related to immigration but capitalism, so those two facts need to be dealt separately. And we won't help ourselves by letting people die on the frontieres.

Immigration creates value. Immigrations creates exchanges. immigrations creates knowledge.

The one who told you immigration is a problem knows nothing about the reality of the world. We have strong economy that can deal with a LOT of things immigration included.

So if there is an economical problem or problems of inequality, the solution is not less immigration, the solution is less capitalism.

 

[Medeia]

If your country already has an issue with poverty with the people who are already living there, and culturally that poverty is leading to increase in gang violence. Why would you welcome more people from other countries who are in poverty and increase that issue in your country? Should you not clean yourself up first before trying to accept others to clean them up?

The thing is some powerful rich people who own mainstream media + fascist demagogues push the mere symptom of heavily increasing immigration and refuging that you mentioned as the main issue to the general population to solve, so deeper lying issues (that get worse the more inequal wealth distribution has become over time) remain in place, especially that those countries from which so many people flee from stay poor and politically as unstable and controlled by dictators as possible.

And no, the far-right doesn't want that things change in those countries which cause more and more immigration and refuging in the first place alongside climate change and any controlled immigration measurements liberals (hi Macron in France) and conservatives do as concessions are merely steps toward the actual goal of these human despising people and their hateful ideologies.

Its literally the peak of divide and conquer even if the founder of fascism (Giovanni Gentile) was inspired by Marx's works, his persisting ideology became the total opposite of socialist theory that arose in late 18th - 19th century in europe as democratic revolutions were started over the continent against monarchy and aristocracy.

 

[Haoshoku]

These clown nationalist movements in Europe are doomed to fail in the long run. They were the ones that colonized other lands and then needed those immigrants to come rebuild their countries after they destroyed each other post WWII. Can’t be telling them to go back now after they already settled there and have had children and grand children. As for the ongoing immigration at this rate Europe is going to be an extension of Eurasia and North/West Africa, no stopping that now no matter the amount of seething from the nationalists. This is the consequence of colonialism and imperialism. Can’t be bombing and destabilizing other countries and then try and say no to the people who flee from said countries. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

These nationalists in the EU right now might be against this but I genuinely think this is one of the turning points in Europe’s demographics changing significantly and a shift in power from West to whatever superpowers/regional powers that will emerge or are emerging in Africa/The Middle East/Asia.

 

[Medeia]

These clown nationalist movements in Europe are doomed to fail in the long run. They were the ones that colonized other lands and then needed those immigrants to come rebuild their countries after they destroyed each other post WWII. Can’t be telling them to go back now after they already settled there and have had children and grand children. As for the ongoing immigration at this rate Europe is going to be an extension of Eurasia and North/West Africa, no stopping that now no matter the amount of seething from the nationalists. This is the consequence of colonialism and imperialism. Can’t be bombing and destabilizing other countries and then try and say no to the people who flee from said countries. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

These nationalists in the EU right now might be against this but I genuinely think this is one of the turning points in Europe’s demographics changing significantly and a shift in power from West to whatever superpowers/regional powers that will emerge or are emerging in Africa/The Middle East/Asia.

Thank you so much, its pretty much the same desperate clown shit in North America to prevent the demographic shift towards Latinos and afro-americans + forcing queer people to be into the closet again. Doomed to fail in long run, the former even moreso do to climate change besides the damage colonialism has done, but complete idiots still want these nationalist governments to ruin so many peoples lives in the meantime.

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

Thank you so much, its pretty much the same desperate clown shit in North America to prevent the demographic shift towards Latinos and afro-americans + forcing queer people to be into the closet again. Doomed to fail in long run, the former even moreso do to climate change besides the damage colonialism has done, but complete idiots still want these nationalist governments to ruin so many peoples lives in the meantime.

I think some of the concerns is do you think the people about to replace the demographics will uphold the same values?

Especially the values that you personally believe in ?

Of course the Western Politics is Structured in such a way that you need to be politically correct to be in power, but this can be fragile..

 

[Logiko]

I think some of the concerns is do you think the people about to replace the demographics will uphold the same values?

Especially the values that you personally believe in ?

Of course the Western Politics is Structured in such a way that you need to be politically correct to be in power, but this can be fragile..

Cultures and value evolve. Its part of the circle of social life. One that expect his value system to remain the same will never be able to keep up with reality.

People need to accept that.

They also need to understand that our value system is not very different from one country to another. In term of value as a french person, I have for example more in common with a leftist Palestinian or a leftist sub saharian than with a French and rural far rightist in term of value. Our culture will obviously be different and this could be very empowering for both of us to have interactions with oneanother, but our similar value system will keep us on the same wavelenght.

 

[Medeia]

I think some of the concerns is do you think the people about to replace the demographics will uphold the same values?

Especially the values that you personally believe in ?

Of course the Western Politics is Structured in such a way that you need to be politically correct to be in power, but this can be fragile..

The clear answer is not, there's enough precedent in human history that fundamental changes in the demographics of the region cause cultural change, but also for a mixing of the values in some ways. This can of course change the human rights situation of certain minorities negatively (particularly LGBTIQ+ and followers of some religions in europe, tho the formers recently gained rights are already under attack from the european right and few nominally leftist parties) at least initially and i know this fear causes even some of these minorities to vote far-right even if the rule of such parties ironically threatens their own rights.

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

Cultures and value evolve. Its part of the circle of social life. One that expect his value system to remain the same will never be able to keep up with reality.

People need to accept that.

Yes this True.


Culture evolves for better or worse


It's just sometimes evolves backwards and that's hard to swallow for some.



Think about it from civilizational perspective,
These is what them great, ensuring unchallenged world domination for the last 300 years and the most remarkable progress in the history of humanity


But yes Globalism helped that many outside the West as well as immigrants to internalize the value system, but the skin color and their native cultural baggage is what make those people still get rejected as *inheritor* to replace the demographics

The clear answer is not

Yes. Medeia.



Let's just say, you hate the Far Rights because they oppose your values,


So why are you then sympathetic to immigrants that will replace the demographics and could be the same as those Far Rights you oppose?

particularly LGBTIQ+ and followers of some religions in europe, tho the formers recently gained rights are already under attack from the european right and few nominally leftist parties

Yeah the tolerance and acceptance of LBGTQs is still very fragile and volatile despite all the media awareness campaign

Remember that Gay sex causes Monkeypox hoax?
It spread like wildfire, even normie lefty become a bigot for an hour.



Even Women's rights is being challenged, especially in Manospheres world.


You probably heard about the growing ideological gap between men and women worldwide

 

[Etzel Andergast]

Yes. Medeia.

Let's just say, you hate the Far Rights because they oppose your values,

So why are you then sympathetic to immigrants that will replace the demographics and could be the same as those Far Rights you oppose?

this is a good point

 

[Logiko]

So why are you then sympathetic to immigrants that will replace the demographics and could be the same as those Far Rights you oppose?

Because before being political, people are just people.

We know where the priorities are.

We save people first THEN we think about their value system.

 

[Medeia]

So why are you then sympathetic to immigrants that will replace the demographics and could be the same as those Far Rights you oppose?

Got not much to do with generalized blind sympathy, i'm just not a person who believes in policies that put entire groups into one box positively or negatively, no arbitrary groups of humans are monoliths, especially when these immigrants from those illiberal countries include more liberal people who flee these countries for that reason and cause their life may even be endangered by those countries rulers.

And then theres what i pretty much implied in my previous post, theres no practicality in these desperate european iron dome measures to stop migrants/refugees, enough people will make it regardless in the long run who are really that desperate thx to both political/economical situations in their original home countries and climate change.

Its really just a fruitless money wasting endeavor ultimately to try to halt immigration completely even if i were to erase the fact that those far-right parties screaming the loudest for the most extreme measurements of regulation (not these "mere" control measures like Macrons immigration law with intent of appeasement, controlled amount of immigration is not their ultimate goal) would transform european countries into illiberal authoritarian ones anyway (Orban in Hungary was fully successful and Poland barely got rid of PiS before they finished doing the same).

The best and really only immigration controller in the long run (even compared to controlled meritocratic based Immigration) is the simply said but waaay harder done significant improvement of the former colonies political/economical situation and life situation of the general population (which is further impacted by climate change) in these countries and not whatever measurements you come up with against Immigration in Europe and North America.

 

[Etzel Andergast]

Got not much to do with generalized blind sympathy, i'm just not a person who believes in policies that put entire groups into one box positively or negatively, no arbitrary groups of humans are monoliths, especially when these immigrants from those illiberal countries include more liberal people who flee these countries for that reason and cause their life may even be endangered by those countries rulers.

And then theres what i pretty much implied in my previous post, theres no practicality in these desperate european iron dome measures to stop migrants/refugees, enough people will make it regardless in the long run who are really that desperate thx to both political/economical situations in their original home countries and climate change.

Its really just a fruitless money wasting endeavor ultimately to try to halt immigration completely even if i were to erase the fact that those far-right parties screaming the loudest for the most extreme measurements of regulation (not these "mere" control measures like Macrons immigration law with intent of appeasement, controlled amount of immigration is not their ultimate goal) would transform european countries into illiberal authoritarian ones anyway (Orban in Hungary was fully successful and Poland barely got rid of PiS before they finished doing the same).

The best and really only immigration controller in the long run (even compared to controlled meritocratic based Immigration) is the simply said but waaay harder done significant improvement of the former colonies political/economical situation and life situation of the general population (which is further impacted by climate change) in these countries and not whatever measurements you come up with against Immigration in Europe and North America.

I agree that the most important thing is to help develop the former colonies. I've heard many people say that the case of Nigeria will be the worst. The biggest population growth in the world without enough economic growth for those people.

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

Got not much to do with generalized blind sympathy, i'm just not a person who believes in policies that put entire groups into one box positively or negatively, no arbitrary groups of humans are monoliths, especially when these immigrants from those illiberal countries include more liberal people who flee these countries for that reason and cause their life may even be endangered by those countries rulers.

And then theres what i pretty much implied in my previous post, theres no practicality in these desperate european iron dome measures to stop migrants/refugees, enough people will make it regardless in the long run who are really that desperate thx to both political/economical situations in their original home countries and climate change.

Its really just a fruitless money wasting endeavor ultimately to try to halt immigration completely even if i were to erase the fact that those far-right parties screaming the loudest for the most extreme measurements of regulation (not these "mere" control measures like Macrons immigration law with intent of appeasement, controlled amount of immigration is not their ultimate goal) would transform european countries into illiberal authoritarian ones anyway (Orban in Hungary was fully successful and Poland barely got rid of PiS before they finished doing the same).

The best and really only immigration controller in the long run (even compared to controlled meritocratic based Immigration) is the simply said but waaay harder done significant improvement of the former colonies political/economical situation and life situation of the general population (which is further impacted by climate change) in these countries and not whatever measurements you come up with against Immigration in Europe and North America.

Yeah I agree with most of what you said
Ironically the people that oppose immigration the most is also the people that don't like foreign aids.



But Developing the colonies is tricky though ain't it?

You need to choose between genuinely developing their countries or just chasing your own Country interests, even at the expense of local population... Like providing funds for oppressive militias so that you can extract the resources.

 

[AverageNamiEnjoyer]

Deep down
We all racist

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

Deep down
We all racist

Projecting


Intrusive thoughts is should always be buried inside

 

[AverageNamiEnjoyer]

Projecting


Intrusive thoughts is should always be buried inside

Racism is state of mind
We all hate different things

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

Racism is state of mind
We all hate different things

I just hate how much different we are

I can't relate to you at all



So I got these knee jerk reaction known as intolerance

 

[AverageNamiEnjoyer]

I just hate how much different we are

I can't relate to you at all



So I got these knee jerk reaction known as intolerance

I understand you

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

Riots in UK is getting worse after an immigrant descent stabbed children.


Telegram channels and x are mobilizing people to get into areas of significant immigrations population,

They are calling it whites uprisings

 

[Logiko]

They are calling it whites uprisings

Do you guys understand now why I am fighting far rightists so fiercely and why I'm saying that all societies of the west are in danger because of them?