Controversial MODERATION : Why refusing to name, call or label troubles is problematic
- Thread starter Logiko
- Start date
Hi !
There are three reasons why you might have ended up on this thread:
- Because you saw the thread on the forum or it was promoted by someone
- Because I or someone else directed you toward it through a link because of your behavior. And if that's the case I suggest you to look for THE LIST, in this thread, to understand why.
- Because you are @TheAncientCenturion @Bogard or @Pantheos and I'm tagging you here 'cause you are the ones who seem to be able to do something about the issue and because I'm sure you want - like me - this forum to be a cool place
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PART 0 - WHY I'M DOING THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE
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For many people, this forum is not something serious. And I agree, it should not be taken as something serious most of the time... BUT this forum is a big piece of the puzzle that is the One Piece fanbase. As such, it has a power of influence over the fanbase : What will be considered normal here will most likely spread in the fanbase.
Now.. I consider that the One Piece fanbase should be exemplary. For three reasons:
- Because it's bound to become one of the largest fanbase on the planet at the end of the story
- Because Fanbases have a power of nuisance (or positivity) on the internet
- Because One Piece is all about positivity and the fight against harmfull behaviors.
For these reasons, I believe that we should strive for positivity on a systemic basis. For example, we can't accept big cluster or system inside the fanbase that promotes harmfull behavior or clear negativity.
I think Worstgen is currently a beacon of Negativity and harmfull behaviors. BUT. I also think Worstgen has the potential to become the opposite. This is why I'm trying to find ways to change that.
Here, I will criticize the work of the moderation, but know this : My goal is not to strike anyone personnally. I'm only here to show you a problem present on this forum and a way to turn it around.
The problems I will mentionned are created because of the overall system, first our political context, then the system of forum in general that are not ideal and then by the a form of global depolitization of important issue.
Individual are NOT at fault (even if I'm mentionning the actions of some people)
&
I DON'T WANT ANY MODERATOR TO GO !!
I think they are all cool in their own ways. What I demand is a better understanding of everyone of the issue related to the topics I'm facing on this forum. I DO go overboard with labels.. but I only label a lot because I know for a fact that the system (the forum's structure+staff) do not prevent the behaviors I'm facing. So I have no choice but to maintain a strong presence of opposition to show that said behaviors are not acceptables. If I know that said system is reliable, I will not have to do anything.
For that, everyone and the system needs to be in sync. And why I'm saying here won't be enough (I'll talk about that either in private or in another thread)
Mates (Women, men and people in the middle).. I would love to hover over the forum, have nothing to say and just enjoy/read your discussions if I find them interesting !
All I want, is for the staff and posters to understand that this forum - in its current configuration - is not an healthy environment. It doesn't need to be a safe spaces, but it needs to be a place where positivity is rewarded and not toxicity.
So I would love for the staff (and posters) to learn a few stuff about the issues I will talk about. It's ok not to know, that's why I'm proposing my help in many ways on this forum and why I'm proposing it here once again. I do not want to be a moderator, I just want the staff to be aware of some important issues and how to fight them.
Again, I might not really like some of you and taunt others, but I have absolutely NO personnal grudges against anyone here, even those I'm labelling the most. Those who know me personnaly know that I don't know how to hate and it's rare for me to feel intense resentment against individuals.
All I want is more positivity on this plateform and more positivity in the fanbase.
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PART 1 - CONTEXT
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Some of you might be aware that I was ThreadBanned from the political thread. The given reason was this one : "Take a break and stop labelling people"
My last post on the thread was this one:
Link toward visualizer : https://ibb.co/z4ynRWX
Am I accepting this ban ? Yes. Am I blaming the moderator ? No. Do I feel censored ? No, not yet.
But .. Am I questionning the legitimacy of this threadban ? Yes. It might be a simple 3 day thread Ban but the implications are important.
This come with a context:
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THE LIST :
You might know that I tend to label some people quite often here. And if you are on this thread because of a link of mine, there are HIGH chances that I wanted to actually label you with something from the following list, but wasn't able to because of the new moderation politic.
If you are here because of a link, I'm sure you know what label I wanted to put on you, so I will let you do the maths. I don't want to be banned for being a decent human being... for now.
Here are the labels that I usually give to people:
- "You are ignorant OR being ignorant" : The most common. Label usually backed up by evidences, researches and logical or knowledgable demonstrations.
- "You are a Rightist" : Very common
- "You are being toxic" : Very common
- "You are a liberal" : Common
- "You are uneducated on the subject" : Common
- "You are a far rightist" : Common
- "You are a reactionnary": Common
- "You are using far right rethoric" : Common
- "You are a science denier" : Common
- "You are using psychophobic rethoric" : Common
- "Stop the psychophobia" : Common
- "You are using transphobic rethoric" : Common
- "You are being bigoted" : Common
- "You are a conservatist" : Less common
- "You are a confusionnist" : Less common
- "You are apolitical" : Less common
- "You are using incel rethoric" : Less common
- "You are a libertarian" : Less common
- "You are procapitalistic": Less common
- "You are using confusionnist rethoric" : Less common
- "You are using racist/antisemitic rethoric : Less common
- "You are being transphobic" : Less common
- "You are an incel" : Less common
- "You are sexist" : Less common
- "You are a climatosceptic" : Rare
- "You are an ableist" : Rare
- "You are a transphobe" : Rare
- "You are a genocide apologizer" : Rare
- "You are racist" : Rare
- "You are using crypto fascist rethoric": Rare
- "You are a fascist" : Extremily rare (I can't remember ever using that here) But I have labelled external people (fascists) as fascists or cryptofascists (Shapiro, Trump, Zemmour, Netanyahou etc.)
I'm sure there is a lot more labels that I missed. But you get the point. I do have the label easy... for SOME type of people.
But be sure of something:
I NEVER label someone for no reasons !
As you can see. most of the people I label have something in common. I will let you find out what..
Nah.. Just kidding! Here is the common denominator : All those labels are describing terms for something problematic/potentially dangerous for society.
But funnily enough.. you might be noticing the fact that some types of labels are missing. Indeed, here are some that I never had to use to describe people of this forum :
"You are a Tankie"
"You are a profem"
"You are propsy"
"You are are a Terf"
"You are an absolutionnist"
"You are a Class struggle first"
"You are a social traitor" > Almost did
"you are a softy"
"You are a fake Sos dem" > Almost did too I think
"You are a pinkwasher"
"You are a white liberal feminist"
As you can see.. those are a bit different. Indeed.. for most of them, they would apply to people on the leftist side. (aside from a few ones). But.. I never had to use them.. I'll let you do the math on the reasons why.
NOW....
I'm not here to talk about the labels I put on people. I'm here to talk about the actions and consequences of refusing to name or labels troubles and consider the behavior of labelling problematic people as toxic. So I will use my bans as a source of political discussion about problems related to moderation and the acceptation of toxic behavior:
You might not know that, but this is not the first ban or thread banned on this forum. I was thread banned 5 times (this is my 5th). Here are the reasons:
1. 1 month threadbanned from the nakama thread because I was calling out the toxicity of people. The mods didn't like the fact that Iabel people as "toxic" (because I faced insults at the time) and thus threadbanned me for a month by saying something like "stop labelling people, you are the toxic one"
2. ? month threadbanned from the Nakama thread because I thought it would be pertinent to talk about the link between the concept of racism and the treatment of fictionnal races by fans since, at the time, people were using the fact that Carrot was a Mink as a way to delegitimize and dehumanize her. Which didn't please some people and exposed some of their racist bias .. biases that I called out. Threadbanned under an injonction like "Stop bringing politic where it doesn't belong" > (I'm the one who asked for a political section on the forum after that)
3. x week threadbanned from the political thread because I refused to let a specific poster and multiple other users spit out despicable transphobia for days after I explained in a very positive and pedagogic post why before buying Hogward legacy, you should be aware that it would finance a very hardcore anti-trans activist (this is what made this thread grow in the first place). Reason of the ban I think : "stop arguing, you need to be two to squable" thus putting me who was fighting shear transphobia on the same level as the one spitting it.
4. PERMABANNED from the Nakama thread because I said that political discussions should be given more freedom and have more place in discussion about political subject related to the story (which is literally what the Nakama thread is when you take the time to understand the purpose and core principles of the thread) and that I would not hesitate to continue to discuss about those subjects if I were to return in the thread. No reason for the threadban. It was arbitrary.
So... do you see a recurring pattern here ?
Come on! I'm sure you have it !
You are almost there !
Okay I will help you. Here is the recurring pattern:
You might ask ... "but what does he means by that" ? Well I mean by that the refusal to see political issues as political issues. The refusal to see the reasons and gears behind toxic behaviors. It's the refusal to act truly on deep issues. And most of all : it's the refusal to aknowledge the systemic responsability behind some behaviors.
Reasons are :
- Lazyness
- Lack of education on specific subjects
- Lack of Care
- Lack of time
- And also lack of ressources
Let's talk about TOXICITY:
> What happens in a system that refuses toxicity ?
Usually, the system will be rather safe.. it might even be a little too safe sometimes in the sence that very small aspect of toxicity could be deemed as dangerous.
> Now.. what happens in a system that refuses to moderate toxicity or let 50% of it pass through?
Well, the opposite. This time the system will transform into something more negative. It could even transform into something problematic or dangerous.
On worstgen, as the name shows, toxicity is not something that is seen as problematic.
Don't believe me ? Type this in the research bar and admire:
This is a fact. Toxicity is promoted by the current structure of the forum (not the staff, only the structure) and allowed by the Staff (I will not elaborate on the structure right here, i'm keeping that for another potential thread).
So.. what is the result of that?
Well a few things :
- More toxicity means logically more negativity. If you know something about the research of crowds, you should understand that beyond a certain number of opinions, the global opinion will start to shift. So if a certain groups of people are allowed to spread hardcore toxicity and negativity and said negativity is seen as something positive to reproduce, the negativity will spread. This is the reason why this forum is so out of touch with the community on the matter of One Piece's quality and Oda's writing abilities.
- More toxicity also means the normalization of toxicity and the dediabolization of more problematic things. To understand that, let's say that your mom told you that stealing is bad.. But now, you are living with your stepfather who is stealing stuff and say that stealing only big stuff is bad. In your opinion, were you more likely to steal big stuff before or after living with your stepfather ?
Well, this is what dediabolization does. By allowing problematic behaviors to slip through, we are actually raising the bar of probability for more dangerous behavior to appear.
So now, what we can sometimes see are just not random toxicity, but actual problematic posts.
- Dediabolizing toxicity for everyone means also dediabolizing toxicity for those who moderate. When you make people believe that throwing random insult is normal, it make the moderation believe that throwing insults is not that bad. It also raises the bar of the acceptance for problematic behavior. And you end up with posts where moderators are saying that it is okay to insult them as long as we don't insult others:
And as I explained previously, allowing toxicity also raises the bar of acceptance for the moderation of VERY problematic behavior. Especially when said moderation is not trained to understand the issue behind some of those behaviors.
...
BUT if you are someone with critical thinking.. that should be the part where you says to me that the moderation is competent and is actually following the rule correctly. Right ?
Well, I will show you (at least for those who will be able to understand) with two examples, that it's not that simple and that moderators here are sometime COMPLETELY LOST on the subjects they are supposed to moderate on.
For this part I won't quote ANYTHING. Simply because I do not want those moderator to be harrassed, but I need to talk about the problem, so I'll describe the situations.
First example : The promotion of racist rethoric
Rules of the forum on Racism and Nazi propaganda:
"Discrimination: Sexism, Racism, Xenophobia, Homophobia aren't permitted. Berating users specifically or making vague discriminatory comments to bait a reaction out of users will likewise not be tolerated, any off-topic discriminatory remarks will be dealt with accordingly.
Nazi Propaganda: As Worstgen is hosted in Europe, we have a zero-tolerance policy advocating genocide, Nazi propaganda, and white supremacy. "
- The setting : A poster was making strange and disturbing assertion and promotion of racist and fascist rethoric (especially concerning racial differences and concepts used by Nazis at the time to promote their ideology) so I stepped in to explain why the concept used were highly problematic and racist. I also called a moderator to watch over the discussion.
- Moderation : The moderator, instead of moderating the racist rethoric, doubled down on it and explained that yes, there were racial differences. Which is obviously completely false but also a common racist rethoric used by white supremacist to promote scientific racism (racism). Worst, instead of simply deleting the post of the user (or theirs) or correcting them, they told said user that they were clarifying things TO ME because I was trying to get said user banned. (Anyone who read with attention what I say, know that I'm against banning people for the most part)
I warned the moderator that they were breaking the rules and instead of aknowledging that, they took that as a challenge from me and laughed at my face.
- Result : The racist rethoric is still present on this forum. I choosed not follow up on the problem as I thought that it was understood anyway, but I think I was wrong..
- Follow up : Recently, A moderator repeated and promoted the antisemitic rethoric from a poster I had just denounced with the sarcastic excuse that in a certain context, the usage of the antisemitic word was justified. When... it's not justified at all.
Second example : The refusal to moderate transphobic post and the delegitimization of the critics against transphobic post
Again, here are the rules of the forum on transphobia (funny, it's not mentionned, but I will consider that it's included in "discriminatory comments"):
"Discrimination: Sexism, Racism, Xenophobia, Homophobia aren't permitted. Berating users specifically or making vague discriminatory comments to bait a reaction out of users will likewise not be tolerated, any off-topic discriminatory remarks will be dealt with accordingly.
Before going further : What is transidentity and what is transphobia ? :
For you to understand that, I will post a set of ressources from the LEFTIST LIBRARY and OTHERS:
1. Transidentity
- [VIDEO] - Identity : A Trans coming out story - How it would feel like to be Transgender ? - Philosophy Tube - IMPORTANT
> This video is magic and amazing. It's the most important video you can watch to understand what transidentity is. It literally a transition in real time and it's really touching. Really ! I recommend it !
HERE : Is a video to explain briefly what transgenderism or transidentity is
HERE : Is a video to explain transidentidy from a scientific point of view
HERE : Is a video with researches sources to explain why Transidentity is not a mental illness.
2. Transphobia
To really understand what is transphobia: Those two sources are the most important:
What is Transphobia : From the site TransActual (a trans activist site)
What is Transphobia : From the site Planned Parenthood (The institutions that helps LGBTQI+ people and young women in distress)
For our problem here, the important part to understand is this one (Quote from the second source):
"Transmisia/transphobia takes many forms. In general, transmisia/transphobia is any attitude, belief, behavior, or policy that:
HERE : Is a "Some More News" Video debunking a lot of transphobic myth and bigoted history
And a few ressources on transphobia :
- [VIDEO] - What is transphobia ? - Philosophy Tube
- [STUDY] - Transphobia's impact on Trans men
- [STUDY] - Transphobia's impact on Trans women
Now..
- Context : Before coming to this forum, I was not a big trans defender, of course I was pro LGBTQI+ but not really actively... then I noticed Yamato fans being weird, and transphobic to the point of trashing up Yamato's personnality AND genderfluidity (yes, Yamato is not just a man or a woman, but most likely both depending on situations).. Weird.. but then I noticed here and there on the forum, an important number of transphobic rethoric.. and those were not moderated. In good faith, knowing that transidentity is not something easy to understand, I made a big post in the political thread to explain what transidentity was, testimonies from trans people, various explanations etc. After that I demonstrated why it could be harmfull for Trans to buy Hogward Legacy and therefore finance JKR a transphobic radical feminist. I clearly stated that it was okay to buy the game but I wanted people to know the possible consequences...
You can go back to this thread if you type "#TheThreadThatStartedTheWar" in the research bar. After facing a big shielding from reactionnaries.. I then talked about the right that Trans should have to uses women's bathroom..
Oh my.. the error..
After this thread and this remark, I faced multiple days of transphobia, first light, then extrem from multiple people. So of course, I didn't let that pass and I countered.. a LOT. No insults, simple labels and big explanations. One guy refused to back off and I continued countering his dangerous rethoric for hours (yes, dangerous because even words can hurt, you never know who can be reading what you say and how it can affect them) .. and the threadban came.. Not just for him, but for me too. I gave you the reason at the beginning.
This is the moment when I felt that there was a problem.
After that, the political thread was launched and various subject appeared. And sometimes.. transphobic arguments. Each time I had to face them because said argument were not moderated. Transphobic posts of this "battle" are still visible to this day.
In fact even a moderator - under the excuse of rationnality - tried to explain what transgenderism is but clearly did not understand anything about it and made false claims while explaining that yes, trans people are victims of hate crimes but... they are some are still demanding too much (note : having equal rights) and should stay at their place. (I will not quote it, but if the staff wants to have it, I will show it to you) (not in those words exactly)
- Moderation : I started to see a strange paterns. So not only transphobic posts were not moderated, but I noticed that I was being laughed at and mocked by the moderation for reporting people for transphobia. For them, what I was reporting was not transphobic.
For them, someone saying "trans people are mentally ill" OR "trans women are not women" are not transphobic rethoric and therefore should not be moderated. It's just "another vision of the world".
So, let me repeat what Transphobia is as described by Transpeople who face it and activists or helpers who fight violences against trans people and those who attempt suicide daily":
"Transmisia/transphobia takes many forms. In general, transmisia/transphobia is any attitude, belief, behavior, or policy that:
In other words, Transphobia means not only being harmfull directly to transpeople or calling for violence against them, it can be also more basic stuff like denying their validity or their identity. So..
- When someones calls Trans people "mentally ill" : Not only are they showing psychophobia (other big subject here), but they are stigmatizing trans people
- When someones says that "Trans women are not women or are men" : They are DENYING the VALIDITY of their identities.
In both case, it's Transphobia and it's potentially harmfull for any trans people that could pass by.
You don't agree ? I don't care. We are not talking about agreeing here, but respecting the human rights and dignity of other people. Where I live, such post could be liable to a fine in front of the Police !
Transphobia is not okay and it hurt some peoples. So, behave ! If that's too radical for you, the problem is not me.
THOSE TWO THINGS (racist rethoric and deny of transphobia) are two undeniable proof that at least a part of the moderation here is NOT educated on important subjects related to discriminations or hatefull rethorics and CAN'T therefore apply the rules correctly.. at the moment !
FIRST :
TO REALLY UNDERSTAND this conclusion, you need to understand clearly how language shapes the way you think.
For that, here are the ressources on the importance of linguistic of the LEFTIST LIBRARY :
"
UNDERSTANDING THE POLITICAL IMPORTANCE OF LINGUISTIC
LANGUAGE SHAPES OUR POLITICAL MINDS :
- [VIDEO] - Language shapes the way we think - Lera Boroditsky on Ted Talk - IMPORTANT
- [VIDEO] - Language shapes the way we think - A case study of people speaking a different language
- [MOVIE] - Language shapes the way we think - A movie about the phenomenon - Arrival
- [VIDEO] - What words and their political meanings tell us
- [VIDEO] - The problems with Far-Rights and Conservative Dogwhistles - A brief Overview 1
- [VIDEO] - The problems with Far-Rights and Conservative Dogwhistles - A brief Overview 2
- [VIDEO] - Deep analysis of Dog Whistle used in Politics (11 YEARS OLD - BEFORE TRUMP ;) )
- [VIDEO] - Why inclusive language is important
"
With that, you should be able to understand why the usage of language can also be POLITICAL and important.
SO... TELL ME...
What would have happened if the word "homophobia" or a synonym had never been created ?
Nothing. And that is the problem !
As you might already know.. the language shape the way you see the world. A good example are colors, some people might not even be aware of certain colors.. why ?
Because they didn't named them !
Naming something is MAGIC ! It gives the named something an importance and it allows us to start understanding it.
When you don't name a problem, you will often miss it.
For example if people never named "exploitation" the relationship of domination at work.. Communism would not be a thing and Capitalism would have transformed the world in something much much MUCH darker.
Naming problems is FUNDAMENTAL and the same goes for labels !
Imagine a world where you can't say to a racist person that they are being racist.. racism would become the norm and the sheer significance of the world would start to fade away ! Thus creating a society where people are COMPLETELY discriminated in function of their skin colors or ethnicities.
> The first argument against that is that some people think labels are insults. I was told, by a moderator, that saying "you are being bigoted or you are bigoted" to someone can be considered an insult for some! On top of being wrong.. Do you realize the problem that it creates?
A user told me that leftist should be killed ! (true story) Can you EVER imagine a world where I can't say that the guys is using fascistic rethoric ?
> Another argument against that is when people are telling me that I label only people who disagree with me.
The problem with this logic is that it can be used in every situation, even when said person is being horrible. My personal reality is that I NEVER uses labels without a legitimate reason. There are in fact some people here that I refused to labels, even when they disagreed with me. But people saying that I'm only doing that as a counter don't really care. And this is also problematic.
Again
Problems which are not named are invisible ! The same goes for people.
If we refuse to see the toxicity of a person, we make said behavior acceptable. This is the normalization of prejudice !
WORST ! When a moderator exposes the struggle against those prejudices as problematic, it PROMOTES said behaviors !
It creates an harmfull and toxic environment and the erosion of the trust of people for the moderation !
-----------------------
At the present moment... I'm threadban and it was CLEARLY implied to people that if I were to label people again, this threadBan would be made PERMANENT.
Imagine..
Planning to ban or promote the ban of someone from a POLITICAL thread (hence a thread where conflict is bound to happen) who only used DESCRIPTIVES labels to counter toxicity, transphobia, racism, antisemitism, anti-scientism and far right BS in general NOT because they are being toxic or insulting people... ONLY on the reason that you find him labelling people annoying and insulting.
So I ask the moderation and the staff and everyone who cares
...
Do you really want to maintain the status co and prevent me to fight toxicity ?
OR
Are you gonna do something about it ?
There are three reasons why you might have ended up on this thread:
- Because you saw the thread on the forum or it was promoted by someone
- Because I or someone else directed you toward it through a link because of your behavior. And if that's the case I suggest you to look for THE LIST, in this thread, to understand why.
- Because you are @TheAncientCenturion @Bogard or @Pantheos and I'm tagging you here 'cause you are the ones who seem to be able to do something about the issue and because I'm sure you want - like me - this forum to be a cool place
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PART 0 - WHY I'M DOING THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For many people, this forum is not something serious. And I agree, it should not be taken as something serious most of the time... BUT this forum is a big piece of the puzzle that is the One Piece fanbase. As such, it has a power of influence over the fanbase : What will be considered normal here will most likely spread in the fanbase.
Now.. I consider that the One Piece fanbase should be exemplary. For three reasons:
- Because it's bound to become one of the largest fanbase on the planet at the end of the story
- Because Fanbases have a power of nuisance (or positivity) on the internet
- Because One Piece is all about positivity and the fight against harmfull behaviors.
For these reasons, I believe that we should strive for positivity on a systemic basis. For example, we can't accept big cluster or system inside the fanbase that promotes harmfull behavior or clear negativity.
I think Worstgen is currently a beacon of Negativity and harmfull behaviors. BUT. I also think Worstgen has the potential to become the opposite. This is why I'm trying to find ways to change that.
Here, I will criticize the work of the moderation, but know this : My goal is not to strike anyone personnally. I'm only here to show you a problem present on this forum and a way to turn it around.
The problems I will mentionned are created because of the overall system, first our political context, then the system of forum in general that are not ideal and then by the a form of global depolitization of important issue.
Individual are NOT at fault (even if I'm mentionning the actions of some people)
&
I DON'T WANT ANY MODERATOR TO GO !!
I think they are all cool in their own ways. What I demand is a better understanding of everyone of the issue related to the topics I'm facing on this forum. I DO go overboard with labels.. but I only label a lot because I know for a fact that the system (the forum's structure+staff) do not prevent the behaviors I'm facing. So I have no choice but to maintain a strong presence of opposition to show that said behaviors are not acceptables. If I know that said system is reliable, I will not have to do anything.
For that, everyone and the system needs to be in sync. And why I'm saying here won't be enough (I'll talk about that either in private or in another thread)
Mates (Women, men and people in the middle).. I would love to hover over the forum, have nothing to say and just enjoy/read your discussions if I find them interesting !
All I want, is for the staff and posters to understand that this forum - in its current configuration - is not an healthy environment. It doesn't need to be a safe spaces, but it needs to be a place where positivity is rewarded and not toxicity.
So I would love for the staff (and posters) to learn a few stuff about the issues I will talk about. It's ok not to know, that's why I'm proposing my help in many ways on this forum and why I'm proposing it here once again. I do not want to be a moderator, I just want the staff to be aware of some important issues and how to fight them.
Again, I might not really like some of you and taunt others, but I have absolutely NO personnal grudges against anyone here, even those I'm labelling the most. Those who know me personnaly know that I don't know how to hate and it's rare for me to feel intense resentment against individuals.
All I want is more positivity on this plateform and more positivity in the fanbase.
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PART 1 - CONTEXT
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of you might be aware that I was ThreadBanned from the political thread. The given reason was this one : "Take a break and stop labelling people"
My last post on the thread was this one:
Link toward visualizer : https://ibb.co/z4ynRWX
Am I accepting this ban ? Yes. Am I blaming the moderator ? No. Do I feel censored ? No, not yet.
But .. Am I questionning the legitimacy of this threadban ? Yes. It might be a simple 3 day thread Ban but the implications are important.
This come with a context:
----------------------------
THE LIST :
You might know that I tend to label some people quite often here. And if you are on this thread because of a link of mine, there are HIGH chances that I wanted to actually label you with something from the following list, but wasn't able to because of the new moderation politic.
If you are here because of a link, I'm sure you know what label I wanted to put on you, so I will let you do the maths. I don't want to be banned for being a decent human being... for now.
Here are the labels that I usually give to people:
- "You are ignorant OR being ignorant" : The most common. Label usually backed up by evidences, researches and logical or knowledgable demonstrations.
- "You are a Rightist" : Very common
- "You are being toxic" : Very common
- "You are a liberal" : Common
- "You are uneducated on the subject" : Common
- "You are a far rightist" : Common
- "You are a reactionnary": Common
- "You are using far right rethoric" : Common
- "You are a science denier" : Common
- "You are using psychophobic rethoric" : Common
- "Stop the psychophobia" : Common
- "You are using transphobic rethoric" : Common
- "You are being bigoted" : Common
- "You are a conservatist" : Less common
- "You are a confusionnist" : Less common
- "You are apolitical" : Less common
- "You are using incel rethoric" : Less common
- "You are a libertarian" : Less common
- "You are procapitalistic": Less common
- "You are using confusionnist rethoric" : Less common
- "You are using racist/antisemitic rethoric : Less common
- "You are being transphobic" : Less common
- "You are an incel" : Less common
- "You are sexist" : Less common
- "You are a climatosceptic" : Rare
- "You are an ableist" : Rare
- "You are a transphobe" : Rare
- "You are a genocide apologizer" : Rare
- "You are racist" : Rare
- "You are using crypto fascist rethoric": Rare
- "You are a fascist" : Extremily rare (I can't remember ever using that here) But I have labelled external people (fascists) as fascists or cryptofascists (Shapiro, Trump, Zemmour, Netanyahou etc.)
I'm sure there is a lot more labels that I missed. But you get the point. I do have the label easy... for SOME type of people.
But be sure of something:
I NEVER label someone for no reasons !
As you can see. most of the people I label have something in common. I will let you find out what..
Nah.. Just kidding! Here is the common denominator : All those labels are describing terms for something problematic/potentially dangerous for society.
But funnily enough.. you might be noticing the fact that some types of labels are missing. Indeed, here are some that I never had to use to describe people of this forum :
"You are a Tankie"
"You are a profem"
"You are propsy"
"You are are a Terf"
"You are an absolutionnist"
"You are a Class struggle first"
"You are a social traitor" > Almost did
"you are a softy"
"You are a fake Sos dem" > Almost did too I think
"You are a pinkwasher"
"You are a white liberal feminist"
As you can see.. those are a bit different. Indeed.. for most of them, they would apply to people on the leftist side. (aside from a few ones). But.. I never had to use them.. I'll let you do the math on the reasons why.
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PART 2 - MODERATION PROBLEM
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PART 2 - MODERATION PROBLEM
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NOW....
I'm not here to talk about the labels I put on people. I'm here to talk about the actions and consequences of refusing to name or labels troubles and consider the behavior of labelling problematic people as toxic. So I will use my bans as a source of political discussion about problems related to moderation and the acceptation of toxic behavior:
You might not know that, but this is not the first ban or thread banned on this forum. I was thread banned 5 times (this is my 5th). Here are the reasons:
1. 1 month threadbanned from the nakama thread because I was calling out the toxicity of people. The mods didn't like the fact that Iabel people as "toxic" (because I faced insults at the time) and thus threadbanned me for a month by saying something like "stop labelling people, you are the toxic one"
2. ? month threadbanned from the Nakama thread because I thought it would be pertinent to talk about the link between the concept of racism and the treatment of fictionnal races by fans since, at the time, people were using the fact that Carrot was a Mink as a way to delegitimize and dehumanize her. Which didn't please some people and exposed some of their racist bias .. biases that I called out. Threadbanned under an injonction like "Stop bringing politic where it doesn't belong" > (I'm the one who asked for a political section on the forum after that)
3. x week threadbanned from the political thread because I refused to let a specific poster and multiple other users spit out despicable transphobia for days after I explained in a very positive and pedagogic post why before buying Hogward legacy, you should be aware that it would finance a very hardcore anti-trans activist (this is what made this thread grow in the first place). Reason of the ban I think : "stop arguing, you need to be two to squable" thus putting me who was fighting shear transphobia on the same level as the one spitting it.
4. PERMABANNED from the Nakama thread because I said that political discussions should be given more freedom and have more place in discussion about political subject related to the story (which is literally what the Nakama thread is when you take the time to understand the purpose and core principles of the thread) and that I would not hesitate to continue to discuss about those subjects if I were to return in the thread. No reason for the threadban. It was arbitrary.
So... do you see a recurring pattern here ?
Come on! I'm sure you have it !
You are almost there !
Okay I will help you. Here is the recurring pattern:
The volontary depolitization of problematic subjects
You might ask ... "but what does he means by that" ? Well I mean by that the refusal to see political issues as political issues. The refusal to see the reasons and gears behind toxic behaviors. It's the refusal to act truly on deep issues. And most of all : it's the refusal to aknowledge the systemic responsability behind some behaviors.
Reasons are :
- Lazyness
- Lack of education on specific subjects
- Lack of Care
- Lack of time
- And also lack of ressources
Let's talk about TOXICITY:
> What happens in a system that refuses toxicity ?
Usually, the system will be rather safe.. it might even be a little too safe sometimes in the sence that very small aspect of toxicity could be deemed as dangerous.
> Now.. what happens in a system that refuses to moderate toxicity or let 50% of it pass through?
Well, the opposite. This time the system will transform into something more negative. It could even transform into something problematic or dangerous.
On worstgen, as the name shows, toxicity is not something that is seen as problematic.
Don't believe me ? Type this in the research bar and admire:
This is a fact. Toxicity is promoted by the current structure of the forum (not the staff, only the structure) and allowed by the Staff (I will not elaborate on the structure right here, i'm keeping that for another potential thread).
So.. what is the result of that?
Well a few things :
- More toxicity means logically more negativity. If you know something about the research of crowds, you should understand that beyond a certain number of opinions, the global opinion will start to shift. So if a certain groups of people are allowed to spread hardcore toxicity and negativity and said negativity is seen as something positive to reproduce, the negativity will spread. This is the reason why this forum is so out of touch with the community on the matter of One Piece's quality and Oda's writing abilities.
- More toxicity also means the normalization of toxicity and the dediabolization of more problematic things. To understand that, let's say that your mom told you that stealing is bad.. But now, you are living with your stepfather who is stealing stuff and say that stealing only big stuff is bad. In your opinion, were you more likely to steal big stuff before or after living with your stepfather ?
Well, this is what dediabolization does. By allowing problematic behaviors to slip through, we are actually raising the bar of probability for more dangerous behavior to appear.
So now, what we can sometimes see are just not random toxicity, but actual problematic posts.
- Dediabolizing toxicity for everyone means also dediabolizing toxicity for those who moderate. When you make people believe that throwing random insult is normal, it make the moderation believe that throwing insults is not that bad. It also raises the bar of the acceptance for problematic behavior. And you end up with posts where moderators are saying that it is okay to insult them as long as we don't insult others:
And as I explained previously, allowing toxicity also raises the bar of acceptance for the moderation of VERY problematic behavior. Especially when said moderation is not trained to understand the issue behind some of those behaviors.
...
BUT if you are someone with critical thinking.. that should be the part where you says to me that the moderation is competent and is actually following the rule correctly. Right ?
Well, I will show you (at least for those who will be able to understand) with two examples, that it's not that simple and that moderators here are sometime COMPLETELY LOST on the subjects they are supposed to moderate on.
For this part I won't quote ANYTHING. Simply because I do not want those moderator to be harrassed, but I need to talk about the problem, so I'll describe the situations.
First example : The promotion of racist rethoric
Rules of the forum on Racism and Nazi propaganda:
"Discrimination: Sexism, Racism, Xenophobia, Homophobia aren't permitted. Berating users specifically or making vague discriminatory comments to bait a reaction out of users will likewise not be tolerated, any off-topic discriminatory remarks will be dealt with accordingly.
Nazi Propaganda: As Worstgen is hosted in Europe, we have a zero-tolerance policy advocating genocide, Nazi propaganda, and white supremacy. "
- The setting : A poster was making strange and disturbing assertion and promotion of racist and fascist rethoric (especially concerning racial differences and concepts used by Nazis at the time to promote their ideology) so I stepped in to explain why the concept used were highly problematic and racist. I also called a moderator to watch over the discussion.
- Moderation : The moderator, instead of moderating the racist rethoric, doubled down on it and explained that yes, there were racial differences. Which is obviously completely false but also a common racist rethoric used by white supremacist to promote scientific racism (racism). Worst, instead of simply deleting the post of the user (or theirs) or correcting them, they told said user that they were clarifying things TO ME because I was trying to get said user banned. (Anyone who read with attention what I say, know that I'm against banning people for the most part)
I warned the moderator that they were breaking the rules and instead of aknowledging that, they took that as a challenge from me and laughed at my face.
- Result : The racist rethoric is still present on this forum. I choosed not follow up on the problem as I thought that it was understood anyway, but I think I was wrong..
- Follow up : Recently, A moderator repeated and promoted the antisemitic rethoric from a poster I had just denounced with the sarcastic excuse that in a certain context, the usage of the antisemitic word was justified. When... it's not justified at all.
Second example : The refusal to moderate transphobic post and the delegitimization of the critics against transphobic post
Again, here are the rules of the forum on transphobia (funny, it's not mentionned, but I will consider that it's included in "discriminatory comments"):
"Discrimination: Sexism, Racism, Xenophobia, Homophobia aren't permitted. Berating users specifically or making vague discriminatory comments to bait a reaction out of users will likewise not be tolerated, any off-topic discriminatory remarks will be dealt with accordingly.
Before going further : What is transidentity and what is transphobia ? :
For you to understand that, I will post a set of ressources from the LEFTIST LIBRARY and OTHERS:
1. Transidentity
- [VIDEO] - Identity : A Trans coming out story - How it would feel like to be Transgender ? - Philosophy Tube - IMPORTANT
> This video is magic and amazing. It's the most important video you can watch to understand what transidentity is. It literally a transition in real time and it's really touching. Really ! I recommend it !
HERE : Is a video to explain briefly what transgenderism or transidentity is
HERE : Is a video to explain transidentidy from a scientific point of view
HERE : Is a video with researches sources to explain why Transidentity is not a mental illness.
2. Transphobia
To really understand what is transphobia: Those two sources are the most important:
What is Transphobia : From the site TransActual (a trans activist site)
What is Transphobia : From the site Planned Parenthood (The institutions that helps LGBTQI+ people and young women in distress)
For our problem here, the important part to understand is this one (Quote from the second source):
"Transmisia/transphobia takes many forms. In general, transmisia/transphobia is any attitude, belief, behavior, or policy that:
- Stigmatizes or harms trans, nonbinary, and gender nonconforming people;
- Denies the validity of their identities;
- Sees them as less human; and/or
- Treats them as less worthy of care and respect."
HERE : Is a "Some More News" Video debunking a lot of transphobic myth and bigoted history
And a few ressources on transphobia :
- [VIDEO] - What is transphobia ? - Philosophy Tube
- [STUDY] - Transphobia's impact on Trans men
- [STUDY] - Transphobia's impact on Trans women
Now..
- Context : Before coming to this forum, I was not a big trans defender, of course I was pro LGBTQI+ but not really actively... then I noticed Yamato fans being weird, and transphobic to the point of trashing up Yamato's personnality AND genderfluidity (yes, Yamato is not just a man or a woman, but most likely both depending on situations).. Weird.. but then I noticed here and there on the forum, an important number of transphobic rethoric.. and those were not moderated. In good faith, knowing that transidentity is not something easy to understand, I made a big post in the political thread to explain what transidentity was, testimonies from trans people, various explanations etc. After that I demonstrated why it could be harmfull for Trans to buy Hogward Legacy and therefore finance JKR a transphobic radical feminist. I clearly stated that it was okay to buy the game but I wanted people to know the possible consequences...
You can go back to this thread if you type "#TheThreadThatStartedTheWar" in the research bar. After facing a big shielding from reactionnaries.. I then talked about the right that Trans should have to uses women's bathroom..
Oh my.. the error..
After this thread and this remark, I faced multiple days of transphobia, first light, then extrem from multiple people. So of course, I didn't let that pass and I countered.. a LOT. No insults, simple labels and big explanations. One guy refused to back off and I continued countering his dangerous rethoric for hours (yes, dangerous because even words can hurt, you never know who can be reading what you say and how it can affect them) .. and the threadban came.. Not just for him, but for me too. I gave you the reason at the beginning.
This is the moment when I felt that there was a problem.
After that, the political thread was launched and various subject appeared. And sometimes.. transphobic arguments. Each time I had to face them because said argument were not moderated. Transphobic posts of this "battle" are still visible to this day.
In fact even a moderator - under the excuse of rationnality - tried to explain what transgenderism is but clearly did not understand anything about it and made false claims while explaining that yes, trans people are victims of hate crimes but... they are some are still demanding too much (note : having equal rights) and should stay at their place. (I will not quote it, but if the staff wants to have it, I will show it to you) (not in those words exactly)
- Moderation : I started to see a strange paterns. So not only transphobic posts were not moderated, but I noticed that I was being laughed at and mocked by the moderation for reporting people for transphobia. For them, what I was reporting was not transphobic.
For them, someone saying "trans people are mentally ill" OR "trans women are not women" are not transphobic rethoric and therefore should not be moderated. It's just "another vision of the world".
So, let me repeat what Transphobia is as described by Transpeople who face it and activists or helpers who fight violences against trans people and those who attempt suicide daily":
"Transmisia/transphobia takes many forms. In general, transmisia/transphobia is any attitude, belief, behavior, or policy that:
- Stigmatizes or harms trans, nonbinary, and gender nonconforming people;
- Denies the validity of their identities;
- Sees them as less human; and/or
- Treats them as less worthy of care and respect."
In other words, Transphobia means not only being harmfull directly to transpeople or calling for violence against them, it can be also more basic stuff like denying their validity or their identity. So..
- When someones calls Trans people "mentally ill" : Not only are they showing psychophobia (other big subject here), but they are stigmatizing trans people
- When someones says that "Trans women are not women or are men" : They are DENYING the VALIDITY of their identities.
In both case, it's Transphobia and it's potentially harmfull for any trans people that could pass by.
You don't agree ? I don't care. We are not talking about agreeing here, but respecting the human rights and dignity of other people. Where I live, such post could be liable to a fine in front of the Police !
Transphobia is not okay and it hurt some peoples. So, behave ! If that's too radical for you, the problem is not me.
THOSE TWO THINGS (racist rethoric and deny of transphobia) are two undeniable proof that at least a part of the moderation here is NOT educated on important subjects related to discriminations or hatefull rethorics and CAN'T therefore apply the rules correctly.. at the moment !
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CONCLUSION - WHY REFUSING TO NAME, CALL OR LABEL TROUBLES I PROBLEMATIC AND DANGEROUS
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CONCLUSION - WHY REFUSING TO NAME, CALL OR LABEL TROUBLES I PROBLEMATIC AND DANGEROUS
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FIRST :
TO REALLY UNDERSTAND this conclusion, you need to understand clearly how language shapes the way you think.
For that, here are the ressources on the importance of linguistic of the LEFTIST LIBRARY :
"
UNDERSTANDING THE POLITICAL IMPORTANCE OF LINGUISTIC
LANGUAGE SHAPES OUR POLITICAL MINDS :
- [VIDEO] - Language shapes the way we think - Lera Boroditsky on Ted Talk - IMPORTANT
- [VIDEO] - Language shapes the way we think - A case study of people speaking a different language
- [MOVIE] - Language shapes the way we think - A movie about the phenomenon - Arrival
- [VIDEO] - What words and their political meanings tell us
- [VIDEO] - The problems with Far-Rights and Conservative Dogwhistles - A brief Overview 1
- [VIDEO] - The problems with Far-Rights and Conservative Dogwhistles - A brief Overview 2
- [VIDEO] - Deep analysis of Dog Whistle used in Politics (11 YEARS OLD - BEFORE TRUMP ;) )
- [VIDEO] - Why inclusive language is important
"
With that, you should be able to understand why the usage of language can also be POLITICAL and important.
SO... TELL ME...
What would have happened if the word "homophobia" or a synonym had never been created ?
Nothing. And that is the problem !
As you might already know.. the language shape the way you see the world. A good example are colors, some people might not even be aware of certain colors.. why ?
Because they didn't named them !
Naming something is MAGIC ! It gives the named something an importance and it allows us to start understanding it.
When you don't name a problem, you will often miss it.
For example if people never named "exploitation" the relationship of domination at work.. Communism would not be a thing and Capitalism would have transformed the world in something much much MUCH darker.
Naming problems is FUNDAMENTAL and the same goes for labels !
Imagine a world where you can't say to a racist person that they are being racist.. racism would become the norm and the sheer significance of the world would start to fade away ! Thus creating a society where people are COMPLETELY discriminated in function of their skin colors or ethnicities.
> The first argument against that is that some people think labels are insults. I was told, by a moderator, that saying "you are being bigoted or you are bigoted" to someone can be considered an insult for some! On top of being wrong.. Do you realize the problem that it creates?
A user told me that leftist should be killed ! (true story) Can you EVER imagine a world where I can't say that the guys is using fascistic rethoric ?
> Another argument against that is when people are telling me that I label only people who disagree with me.
The problem with this logic is that it can be used in every situation, even when said person is being horrible. My personal reality is that I NEVER uses labels without a legitimate reason. There are in fact some people here that I refused to labels, even when they disagreed with me. But people saying that I'm only doing that as a counter don't really care. And this is also problematic.
Again
Problems which are not named are invisible ! The same goes for people.
If we refuse to see the toxicity of a person, we make said behavior acceptable. This is the normalization of prejudice !
WORST ! When a moderator exposes the struggle against those prejudices as problematic, it PROMOTES said behaviors !
It creates an harmfull and toxic environment and the erosion of the trust of people for the moderation !
-----------------------
At the present moment... I'm threadban and it was CLEARLY implied to people that if I were to label people again, this threadBan would be made PERMANENT.
Imagine..
Planning to ban or promote the ban of someone from a POLITICAL thread (hence a thread where conflict is bound to happen) who only used DESCRIPTIVES labels to counter toxicity, transphobia, racism, antisemitism, anti-scientism and far right BS in general NOT because they are being toxic or insulting people... ONLY on the reason that you find him labelling people annoying and insulting.
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So I ask the moderation and the staff and everyone who cares
...
Do you really want to maintain the status co and prevent me to fight toxicity ?
OR
Are you gonna do something about it ?
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My final word to the staff is that :
I'm not your enemy here and I do not want the end of the forum. I'm your ally and like you I want us to have all a good time here !
Please. Consider what I'm saying here.
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My final word to the staff is that :
I'm not your enemy here and I do not want the end of the forum. I'm your ally and like you I want us to have all a good time here !
Please. Consider what I'm saying here.
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2 Things:
1. Seriously get a life dude
2. Nobody wants to read this long ass paragraphs
And like I said. If you turn you brain off, in front of stories that have completely different value, you cast aside your protection.
This stands on the principle that there are good moments to push basic human rights. This is the excuse used by conservatist to explain that the reason why they are being hatefull, is being the progressist pushed them too much and at the wrong time.
This, on the other hand, is true.
We can't simply "push" for social changes to creates changes (this is usually how liberals think social changes), we need to aim at the sources of all those problems.
In our world there is:
- One "Major" problem : Capitalism
And
- Five "minor" problem : Patriarchy , Ableism , Systemic racism, Heteronormativity, Antiscientism
To fight against those 5 problems, capitalism must always be attacked at the same time or it won't be a fought correctly.
Its ok. Nobody is forcing you.
This stands on the principle that there are good moments to push basic human rights. This is the excuse used by conservatist to explain that the reason why they are being hatefull, is being the progressist pushed them too much and at the wrong time.
This, on the other hand, is true.
We can't simply "push" for social changes to creates changes (this is usually how liberals think social changes), we need to aim at the sources of all those problems.
In our world there is:
- One "Major" problem : Capitalism
And
- Five "minor" problem : Patriarchy , Ableism , Systemic racism, Heteronormativity, Antiscientism
To fight against those 5 problems, capitalism must always be attacked at the same time or it won't be a fought correctly.
Back from night shift and the first thing is see is a classic C4N long ass thread
2 Things:
1. Seriously get a life dude
2. Nobody wants to read this long ass paragraphs
2 Things:
1. Seriously get a life dude
2. Nobody wants to read this long ass paragraphs
Too long, too much agenda in your post bro.
About the core message, you are right. This forum sucks ass, and half of the people posting in here on your thread are agendadriven ZKK teenage kiddies and Odahaters, that just want to shut down your voice, which is against the state of current things.
People apparently want to continue slandering Oda and his work just for their faulty peace of mind.
After I got banned I already stopped to pay for VIP. This should tell you enough about the consequences of the bad moderation on this forum. And this after I multiple times reached out to them offering help lol.
It's not only political shit going on, it's the massive botinfestation, the mistreatment of VIP and longtime users, just to comfort a new twitteruser who joined the forum into enjoying and aligning with WGs toxicity lol.
About the core message, you are right. This forum sucks ass, and half of the people posting in here on your thread are agendadriven ZKK teenage kiddies and Odahaters, that just want to shut down your voice, which is against the state of current things.
People apparently want to continue slandering Oda and his work just for their faulty peace of mind.
After I got banned I already stopped to pay for VIP. This should tell you enough about the consequences of the bad moderation on this forum. And this after I multiple times reached out to them offering help lol.
It's not only political shit going on, it's the massive botinfestation, the mistreatment of VIP and longtime users, just to comfort a new twitteruser who joined the forum into enjoying and aligning with WGs toxicity lol.
Apparently saying stuff like "if someone spoils me I am going to kill them" is treated as "death threat".
Holymoly, I am going to kill them through my screen, like the waifu from The Ring.
Holymoly, I am going to kill them through my screen, like the waifu from The Ring.
They were right to apply a punition for that.
Now.. What do you mean by "the mistreatment of VIP " ?
Some users reacted too sensitive about it.
That same user then even tagged me in a spoiler and tried to provoke it. Idk why they weren't banned lol.
4 weeks ban were too harsh for that, for a literal og of the forum. Without any warning or a mod reaching out to me lol.
I saw people got 3 days bans for sharing hentai.
Lmao, ban was alright, I expected to take a break of a week or so by that time anyway. Then 4 weeks of straight ban, yo.
That same user then even tagged me in a spoiler and tried to provoke it. Idk why they weren't banned lol.
4 weeks ban were too harsh for that, for a literal og of the forum. Without any warning or a mod reaching out to me lol.
I saw people got 3 days bans for sharing hentai.
Lmao, ban was alright, I expected to take a break of a week or so by that time anyway. Then 4 weeks of straight ban, yo.