Versus Battle 3GH Duo Showdown - RSJ + Ren Pa VS Ri Boku + SBS || 250K VS 250K || [READ]

[Rumble]

@Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @Blackbeard @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @RayanOO @Rumble @Greenbeard @Dark Admiral @Jailer @Peroroncino @Monet @Topi Jerami @Shanks @Cichy @Bullet @mmd @Yo Tan Wa @𝓓𝓡 . 𝕋𝒆ñ𝐦𝐚 @Darkrai1381 @tcb @Pirao @Luffy is the mc @Warchief Sanji D Goat @Bepo @Daniel @Pot Goblin @centurion @Ou Zen

RSJ and Ren Pa Army = 250K

1. Rin Shou Jou [CiC]
2. Ren Pa [Deputy]
3. Gyou'un
4. Chou Ga Ryuu
5. Kai Shi Bou
6. Kyou En
7. Gen Po
8. Rin Ko

Ri Boku and SBS Army = 250K

1. Ri Boku [CiC]
2. Shi Ba Shou [Deputy]
3. Ba Nan Ji
4. Shun Sui Ju
5. Kan Saro
6. Gaku Shou (incl Fuu On as LT)
7. Ji Aga
8. Jyou Ka Ryuu (incl Un Gen & Un Kei)
9. Fu Tei
10. Kotsu Min Haku

The terrain is OPEN and SIMILAR TO the Battle of Hango​

CONDITIONS:

The goal for both sides is to take the enemy HQ and kill or capture the enemy Commander-in-Chief where possible.

Each HQ is made up of 10K elites and protected by various, powerful armies. They may also be guarded by an additional general.

Whoever conquers the battle on the other side of the mountain range secures a straight line to the enemy HQ.

-​

WHO WINS?

Question to consider

1. Who will be pitted against each other on the otherside of the mountain range?
2. What are the keys to victory for either side?
3. What strategies are likely to be implemented?
4. Who, if anyone, should both sides choose to protect their respective CiC?
5. What are the advantages match ups BOTH sides should be looking for?

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

My overall thoughts:

Riboku and Shibashou have the outright advantage in terms of ability. Riboku > Rinshoujou as a mind, Shibashou > Renpa martially.

However Renpa and Rinshoujou have the more complete army. Their subordinates have more experience and versatility than Riboku’s and Shibashou’s even if their talent levels are overall pretty similar. Renpa is also more versatile than either Shibashou or Riboku, and Rinshoujou is likely better in a head-on battle scenario than Riboku, who is more skilled at long range strategy/information manipulation.

I could see this going either way really.

I’ll answer all those questions later.

 

[Rumble]

terms of ability. Riboku > Rinshoujou as a mind, Shibashou > Renpa martially.

However Renpa and Rinshoujou have the more complete army.

This is more or less where I’m at with it.

The old heads also specifically have figures like Chou Ga Ryuu and Gen Pou that will be tough to deal with, and RBK may find it challenging to rely on SSJ and Gaku Shou in the field to mitigates

I may have erred in not giving the new school Kei Sha or Ko Chou, but they’re already kinda stacked.

The main reason I chose this terrain is because a battlefield like Sanyou or Eikyuu will too strongly favour the RSJ and Ren Pa subs.

 

[centurion]

RBK's army is way more stacked than RSJ, that you even forgot to include Enkan, Bafuuji, and Kaine in there (thats just how many subordinates he has under him).

plus RBK himself has the brain advantage over RSJ as Gyou'un (literally RSJ's sub) admitted he was the best 3GH in all history (which includes his master RSJ).

Renpa vs SBS can go either way.

if you lower the army numbers in RBK side, I think this match up will be far more solid and fair.

 

[Rumble]

RBK's army is way more stacked than RSJ, that you even forgot to include Enkan in there (thats just how many subordinates he has under him).

To be fair, I did limit to RSJ to 2/10 subs. We just don’t know anything about the 8 that died.

En Kan is also not a subordinate of Ri Boku like the others are. Kotsu Min Haku took over Ganmon when RBK left, but En Kan is of Gi’an and fought under RBK in the context of all of Northern Zhao fighting against the Xiongnu at Ganmon, which is on the border.

plus RBK himself has the brain advantage over RSJ as Gyou'un (literally RSJ's sub) admitted he was the best 3GH in all history (including his master RSJ).

You shouldn’t take these statements at face value. Not even when they’re thoughts. Remember Sou’Ou comparing Ji Aga to Mou Bu?

Remember when Ren Pa made his debut and Ri Boku hyped him up as the strongest and said not even he could beat him in a clash?

Hara is far too inconsistent and prone to hyperbole to take these kind of things at face value. For me, anyway.

Renpa vs SBS can go either way.

if you lower the army numbers in RBK side, I think this match up will be far more solid and fair.

Whatever the gap you perceive between RSJ and RBK, it likely isn’t the case it’s particularly sizeable, given the level of competition RSJ was up against and his portrayal in the story. It’s no coincide the mfer looked like Sei and spoke of unification.

I also think you overlook the fact Ren Pa and RSJ have subs that are “regular” Great Generals tiers themselves and are much more capable of operating independently.

Ri Boku may be the smartest man on the field but he can only be in one place at a time. He can’t think for everyone, so while one side may have more officers, the other has better officers.

I levelled the playing field in favour of Ri Boku and SBS, not Ren Pa and RSJ.

 

[SakazOuki]

Why are you all acting like Renpa is a brainless monkey working under RSJ
While RSJ is the main brainpower behind their army, Renpa remains as a wild factor, someone who can switch his fighting style in a moment’s notice depending on the battlefield conditions, he is unpredictable even to someone like Riboku. SBS‘s main strength is the will of Seika, and the power he grants his soldiers, then you have Renpa, who with a simple gesture, can turn the soldiers of a foreign state into rabid dogs lusting for blood. Renpa as a general is in a whole different league to SBS, he’s in Riboku’s league. Add in RSJ and his subordinates, and it‘s a clear win for the old 3GHs

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

I think Shibashou may have greater firepower than Renpa. However Renpa is a far more versatile and dimensional commander and has superior commanders. I see a scenario where he managed to pincer SBS with Kaishibou.

If Rinshoujou and Renpa work together on their strategy I wholeheartedly believe it would be greater than Riboku's, and would allow them to adapt faster if things go wrong.

Rinshoujou as a strategist should just be a pinch inferior than Riboku imo

 

[Daniel]

This is a tough one because we know what Renpa and Riboku's capabilities are, but we don't know the capabilities of Rinshoujo and SBS all that well. Bananji and Gyou'Un's abilities could be equal to one another, neither one having an advantage.

Rin Shou Jo's rather frail condition pretty much forces him to stay on HQ while Riboku and his vassals can go in and out of battlefield at will, and his strength isn't inferior to most of the generals on both sides.

 

[God Buggy]

RSJ and Renpa, unless Riboku somehow comes up with something really devastating.

Not only RSJ, but Renpa himself is a genius of war with a brilliant mind capable of detailed plans and able to swiftly manouver the pieces on the battlefield, even going with insticts if necessary. And to make things even worse, this is a giant ass battlefield. While Riboku is the best one here, both RSJ and Renpa are next in line. That combined duo is OP and would be capable of absolutely lethal actions.

The other big problem for the new gen are the subs. The combination of the Four Heavenly Kings and Gyou’Un/Chouugaryuu is just too good. Which obviously also adds to the danger of Renpa/RSJ themeselves. Those old gen Heavens army were really stacked lol.

Renpa and RSJ for the W.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Renpa as a general is in a whole different league to SBS, he’s in Riboku’s league.

No he’s not, Renpa is in Ouki’s league. Aka inferior to Riboku as stated by Gyou’Un. Equal to Rinshoujou.

Shibashou has the feat of curb stomping Ousen, something we have no evidence that Renpa could do.

 

[SakazOuki]

No he’s not, Renpa is in Ouki’s league. Aka inferior to Riboku as stated by Gyou’Un. Equal to Rinshoujou.

Shibashou has the feat of curb stomping Ousen, something we have no evidence that Renpa could do.

Hear it from Riboku’s mouth

I have read Hango you know, SBS showed strength in one aspect of warfare, it is not like this was a battle between Ousen and SBS only.
Holding Ouki & Hakuki for 2 years, now that’s a feat lol

 

[God Buggy]

Renpa might be one of the 2/3 individuals alive in the manga who could possibly defeat Riboku in a solo war. He's Ouki's equal but is even more versatile than him with his insticts etc. He could hold (with walls) Hakuki and Ouki for two yeats etc. Even him isn't as strong as Riboku though.

At best he's tied with Hakuki.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Hear it from Riboku’s mouth

I have read Hango you know, SBS showed strength in one aspect of warfare, it is not like this was a battle between Ousen and SBS only.
Holding Ouki & Hakuki for 2 years, now that’s a feat lol

If it’s a headon clash. Bananji would destroy Riboku in a headon clash, this is not a feat. Lol

And Hango was absolutely a battle between Ousen only and Shibashou only. Your man Akou said himself that Ousen was destroyed by Shibashou alone. All Riboku did was prevent Ousen from calling for outside help against him. Ousen had double the numbers of Shibashou, surrounded him, and Shibashou curbstomped him anyway.

Renpa mind you, needed 8 days of slowly widdling down the Mougou army to be even be confident in triple pincering them with Kaishibou and Rinko.

Meanwhile Shibashou rolled the Ousen army like a joint from headon without eight days of trickery or needing his Heavenly Kings to pincer Ousen or any of that crap.

Renpa fighting Shibashou head on would be a disastrously awful idea for Renpa given that he couldn’t even fight the Mougou army without eight days of trickery and tactics beforehand. Lol

 

[Rumble]

Question to consider

1. Who will be pitted against each other on the otherside of the mountain range?
2. What are the keys to victory for either side?
3. What strategies are likely to be implemented?
4. Who, if anyone, should both sides choose to protect their respective CiC?
5. What are the advantages match ups BOTH sides should be looking for?

Answering my own questions for this battle:

Q1
I think RSJ would deploy Chou Ga Ryuu to not only defend his position but advance on the enemy as part of a 3 prong attack strategy to meant spread Ri Boku thin.

I see RBK anticipating this and putting only Kotsu Min Haku in position with instructions to hold and maintain a disciplined defensive posture that he’s probably used to using against steppe tribes. He also probably has another general in reserve to assist as necessary.

Q2
The keys to victory for RSJ and Ren Pa are twofold: spread RBK thin and rely on their superior officers to win their match ups. RSJ drew Ou Ki out of position for a simple chat, which to me seems to indicate the guy can be rather flashy at times and hard to predict.

For RBK and SBS it’s more straight forward: to get to RSJ they have to go though Ren Pa, so their best odds are in setting up SBS for an opportunity to slay Ren Pa. If Ren Pa falls, they essentially win then and there.

Q3
RSJ will want to overwhelm RBK’s capacity to think and Ren Pa will probably use himself as bait to draw in SBS, forcing him to make game time decisions RBK may not agree with.

On the other hand, Ri Boku's keys to victory really go through hoping Ba Nan Ji can keep Gyou'un in check while the Seika generals target Ren Pa for elimination.

Q4
I see RSJ focusing on offense and Ri Boku holding back Shun Sui Ju or Fu Tei to either reinforce Kotsu Min Haku or support Ba Nan Ji against Gyou'un.

Q5
Assuming Ren Pa takes the centre with his 4HK, Gyou'un an and Chou Ga Ryuu will probably take the respective wings.

Ri Boku will want to stack the centre to keep Ren Pa in check and eliminate him. He can rely on Seika for that, but dealing with Gyou'un and Chou Ga Ryuu will require stacking the head however he can.

I see both sides welcoming:

C - Ren Pa VS SBS
W - Gyou'un VS Ba Nan Ji + Fu Tei
W - Chou Ga Ryuu VS Kotsu Min Haku + Shun Sui Ju

The centre could be tricky, but something like could probably unfold:

Kai Shi Bou VS Kan Saro
Rin Ko VS Ji Aga
Gen Pou VS Gaku Shou
Kyou En VS Jyou Ka Ryuu

 

[SakazOuki]

If it’s a headon clash. Bananji would destroy Riboku in a headon clash, this is not a feat. Lol

And Hango was absolutely a battle between Ousen only and Shibashou only. Your man Akou said himself that Ousen was destroyed by Shibashou alone. All Riboku did was prevent Ousen from calling for outside help against him. Ousen had double the numbers of Shibashou, surrounded him, and Shibashou curbstomped him anyway.

Renpa mind you, needed 8 days of slowly widdling down the Mougou army to be even be confident in triple pincering them with Kaishibou and Rinko.

Meanwhile Shibashou rolled the Ousen army like a joint from headon without eight days of trickery or needing his Heavenly Kings to pincer Ousen or any of that crap.

Renpa fighting Shibashou head on would be a disastrously awful idea for Renpa given that he couldn’t even fight the Mougou army without eight days of trickery and tactics beforehand. Lol

Bananji would not destroy Riboku in a head on clash, maybe if it was 5k or smth lol
The bigger the numbers the happier the strategist
Seika’s strength as a hidden factor was the main cause for the loss, it still wouldn’t have been possible without Riboku
On a tactical level Renpa is SBS’s worst matchup, someone who can strategize well and lead from the frontline

Those battles are totally different, you can’t just speak of the end result without analyzing what happened
Renpa while leading a foreign army was dealing with 2 G6 level generals without any intel
In Hango it was the opposite, SBS was the hidden factor, and he had Riboku, who basically served the Ousen army on a platter for the mighty Seika army to butt in
Not to mention Ousen’s officers are nowhere near the level of the heavenly kings, besides Akou that is

Renpa with his unique warfare, individual strength and status, working with the heavenly kings, and fighting alongside his longtime comrade RSJ, can’t see how Riboku & SBS can deal with this
I don’t even think you can find two generals who can beat this army, maybe Ouki & Hakuki lol

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

it still wouldn’t have been possible without Riboku

I’d love to hear you explain why Shibashou needed Riboku to beat Ousen when all Riboku did was endure Ousen couldn’t call for help lol. Literally Shibashou and his commanders alone versus Ousen and his commanders alone and Kanjou, with double the numbers, still lost to Shibashou. Exactly what roll did Riboku play in that lol.

On a tactical level Renpa is SBS’s worst matchup, someone who can strategize well and lead from the frontline

Yeah we saw how well Ousen’s strategies worked against Shibashou lol. Not even sure what Renpa’s strategies could hope to accomplish when Shibashou smoked the superior strategist like a joint.

Shibashou’s worst matchup is not a warrior, that would actually be one of Shibashou’s best matchups since the absolute last thing any commander would want is to be in the immediate proximity of an 8 foot tall giant who cracks the earth when he walks. Renpa picking a fight with Shibashou is 100% exactly what Shibashou wants lmfao.

Nah, Shibashou’s worst matchup would be like…Riboku. A cowardly strategist who runs away constantly and uses dirty tricks to wear down Shibashou’s men. Rinshoujou would be a far worse matchup for Shibashou than Renpa, because under approximately -10 circumstances would Rinshoujou ever allow himself to get near Shibashou. Renpa may actively seek out a fight with him which is exactly what Shibashou would want.

Renpa with his unique warfare

Renpa is literally one of the most traditional commanders in the series. There is nothing unique about his warfare, he is conceptually and literally one of the most by-the-book commanders in Kingdom. Absolutely nothing about his warfare is unique. Rinko and Genpou maybe but not Renpa.

can’t see how Riboku & SBS can deal with this

Literally Riboku is a superior mind to both, and Shibashou is superior in brute strength to both. You can’t just disregard this because Renpa and Rinshoujou are more balanced than SBS and RBK. Kousonryuu is more balanced than Moubu, let’s see how that works out for him.

Riboku and Shibashou are actually one of the bests duos to beat these two. What strategies can Rinshoujou come up with that are outside of Riboku’s ability? Zero. And Renpa can’t handle a full on frontal battle with Shibashou, call me when Renpa doesn’t need 8 days to slowly wear down Mougou’s mid-ass army, let alone Shibashou. A frontal battle with Shibashou would be an absolute disaster for Renpa.

I doubt Renpa and Rinshoujou would beat Moubu and Shouheikun, let alone Shibashou and Riboku.

 

[Rumble]

Shibashou has the feat of curb stomping Ousen, something we have no evidence that Renpa could do.

Shi Ba Shou would not have been capable of this feat on his own. He needed Ri Boku to seal off Ou Sen's strongest weapons. You also have to factor in Ri Boku's assistance with blunting A Kou before he was taken out of commission.

Ren Pa read Ou Sen's trap like a book in their first meeting. Whether this was pure strategy, Instincts or both - the result was incredible impressive. By Ou Sen's own admission, he was not confident enough he would've won that encounter.

Spoiler: Chapter 221-222

 

[God Buggy]

Shi Ba Shou needed Ri Boku to seal off Ou Sen's strongest weapons. Shi Ba Shou would not have been capable of this feat on his own. You also have to factor in Ri Boku's assistance with blunting A Kou before he was taken out of commission.

Ren Pa read Ou Sen like a book in their first meeting. Whether this was pure strategy, Instincts or both - the result was incredible impressive. By Ou Sen's own admission, he was not confident enough he would've won that encounter.

Spoiler: Chapter 221-222

"Just how far ahead was he able to read with just those tiny hints".
It definitely speaks of strategy.

Renpa is just so good that he could act as the Head of the entire Zhao military. He still probaby is top 5 across all of China.

 

[Rumble]

"Just how far ahead was he able to read with just those tiny hints".
It definitely speaks of strategy.

Renpa is just so good that he could act as the Head of the entire Zhao military. He still probaby is top 5 across all of China.

Ren Pa's is an INT 96 that learned strategy from Gen Pou (and likely surpassed him) and remains the only known natural Hybrid Type in the series to date, i.e. the mfer is both a Strategic Type and Instinctual Type general, and he showed incredible mastery over his talent as the latter in countering a stratagem Mou Gou had developed for DECADES in no time flat.

Ren Pa is a 1 of 1.

 

[God Buggy]

Ren Pa's is an INT 96 that learned strategy from Gen Pou (and likely surpassed him) and remains the only known natural Hybrid Type in the series to date, i.e. the mfer is both a Strategic Type and Instinctual Type general, and he showed incredible mastery over his talent as a latter in countering a stratagem Mou Gou had developed for DECADES in no time flat.

Ren Pa is a 1 of 1.

It just really is almost impossible for me to see Renpa being defeated in a war/battle by someone who isn't a top tier brain. When both supreme commanders are managing by themeselves.