Controversial RELIGIONS & SPIRITUALITIES : Conversations

Blax Blah

Blax Blah

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#362
#362
Bisoromi Bear said:
In pretty much every ancient society incl the Greeks. That one's not a Bible issue

The God of the Bible is an authoritarian patriarch, reflecting the social structures of the people that worshipped him
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Please if you would like to see why that's not true read the first two points of this:

Blax Blah said:
I disagree that the presence of slaves is seen as normal, for three main reasons,

1. God is for freedom

2. We are told by Jesus that God allowed the israelites to do some evil out of the hardness of their hearts, because their hearts were too hardened, He allowed it so events would happen and His body would be born to save the people in the world, but, slavery was not one of those things He allowed, here is why that is true:


Jesus said a man putting away his wife except for the cause of fornication is a sin

Matthew 19:1-9
19 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;


2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.


3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?


4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,


5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?


6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?


8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.


9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

When the pharisees asked Jesus, why then did Moses allow us to put away our wives?

Jesus said

"8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.




9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

"

So, because of the hardness of the people's hearts, Jesus allowed them to engage in some evil if they wanted to in order for events to happen in the way for the people in the world to be saved

I think the question is, is slavery one of the things He tolerated out of the hardness of their hearts? No. Why? Because Exodus 21:16

Exodus 21:16
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

3. Some people who legally "owned" slaves would read books to slaves to keep them obedient, and religion was used to control them yes, but not the Bible, instead a false version of the Bible which was false because all verses about freedom were removed from it, and it is called the Slave Bible,

The reason a made up version of the Bible was made, which unless they added fake pro-slavery verses to it, with all its verses about freedom removed, wouldn't even specifically be pro-slavery, is because the real Bible leads to freedom and revolts and they felt that their "businesses" and power would be endagered if the slaves heard God say to them to be free,

Some articles about the slave bible:

+ What is the slave bible, who made it and why
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bible/what-is-the-slave-bible-who-made-it-and-why.html


+ Slave bible from the 1800s omitted key passages that could incite rebellion
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/6749...tted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion


+ Why Bibles given to slaves omitted most of the old testament

https://www.history.com/news/slave-bible-redacted-old-testament
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A lot of politics was also inspired by the Bible, John Brown was a person who fought against slavery, although I heard he made some mistakes in the individuals he fought against, because he saw its evils and saw God in the Bible say it is evil, he was executed to death, and John brown's death was one of the "things" that started the american civil war the abolishment of slavery

Here is what he said in court:

John Brown's speech to the court at his trial 1859:
https://nationalcenter.org/ncppr/2001/11/03/john-browns-speech-to-the-court-at-his-trial-1859/


Or on the content section of the wikipedia article about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_last_speech


"
I have, may it please the court, a few words to say.

In the first place, I deny everything but what I have all along admitted, the design on my part to free the slaves. I intended certainly to have made a clean thing of that matter, as I did last winter, when I went into Missouri and there took slaves without the snapping of a gun on either side, moved them through the country, and finally left them in Canada. I designed to have done the same thing again, on a larger scale. That was all I intended. I never did intend murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection.

I have another objection; and that is, it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty. Had I interfered in the manner which I admit, and which I admit has been fairly proved (for I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case), had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment.

This court acknowledges, as I suppose, the validity of the law of God. I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that "all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them" [Matthew 7:12]. It teaches me, further, to "remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them" [Hebrews 13:3]. I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say, I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!

Let me say one word further.

I feel entirely satisfied with the treatment I have received on my trial. Considering all the circumstances, it has been more generous than I expected. But I feel no consciousness of guilt. I have stated from the first [day] what was my intention and what was not. I never had any design against the life of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason, or excite slaves to rebel, or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind.

Let me say, also, a word in regard to the statements made by some of those connected with me. I hear it has been stated by some of them that I have induced them to join me. But the contrary is true. I do not say this to injure them, but as regretting their weakness. There is not one of them but joined me of his own accord, and the greater part of them at their own expense. A number of them I never saw, and never had a word of conversation with, till the day they came to me; and that was for the purpose I have stated.

Now I have done.[2]: 340–342 
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God tolerated so much, I mean God is called prideful, which I believe Him wanting to be worshipped is not prideful because He is life, if you have Him you have eternal life, He wants us to worship Him so we can have eternal life since He is that and not suffer, but even though God is called prideful, I think He may have tolerated worship of idols a lot more than He tolerated slavery which is 0, because if you took a man or kidnapped one and sold them it was the death penalty,
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And a lot of fighters who fought against slavery were motivated by the Bible, they believed the Bible was against slavery,

The makers of the slave bible made it so their slaves would have less of an opportunity to hear about freedom, they thought the full bible was against slavery,

So if the fighters against slavery thought the Bible was against it, if the people pro slavery thought the bible was against it, and if the Bible says it is against it, why the debate?,
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@Logiko @NAMELESS @Brush D. Teeth @Toby D. Dog @Uncle Van @AL sama

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/eJnL0nMVPGU
 
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Zenos7

Zenos7

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#363
#363
Blax Blah said:
May I ask what translation you use? I used the KJV and it says manservant and womanservant, not slave
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Ye ppl working overtime to make it seem less horrible.

Property (in my quote) and "his money" (in your quote) make it very clear though.

But you do you defending indefensible ancient texts
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Blax Blah said:
Also Matthew is relevant, it does not talk about slavery, it talks about divorce, Jesus says it is a sin, the pharisees ask Why did Moses then let us divorce? And Jesus says that Out of the hardness of their hearts Moses allowed them to divorce, as in God allowed them to do that evil because their hearts were too hardened to listen to Him and so He let them do that so events would happen as they must, but despite Him tolersting divorce, He did not tolerate slavery, as can be seen by the commandment outlawing it,
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Jesus nowhere says you shouldnt own people as property though
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Bisoromi Bear said:
In pretty much every ancient society incl the Greeks. That one's not a Bible issue
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True, but that doesnt make it any better
 
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Leadership101

Leadership101

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#364
#364
Blax Blah said:
May I ask what translation you use? I used the KJV and it says manservant and womanservant, not slave

Exodus 21:20-21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Exodus 21:26-27
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Manservant and womanservant reffers to people who would enter contacts of employment with others to serve them for 7 years and then be sent away with some more riches,

Two examples of that:


Exodus 21:1-6
21 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Genesis 29:18-30
18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.

19 And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.

20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.

21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.

22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.

23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.

24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.

25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?

26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.

27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.

28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.

29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.

30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.

Why is it mental gymnastics if it also says in Exodus 21:16
"And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."

Then by law if you kidnap someone and sell them, or if someone is found in your hand, as in owned by you, you get put to death, so slavery is outlawed,

Also Matthew is relevant, it does not talk about slavery, it talks about divorce, Jesus says it is a sin, the pharisees ask Why did Moses then let us divorce? And Jesus says that Out of the hardness of their hearts Moses allowed them to divorce, as in God allowed them to do that evil because their hearts were too hardened to listen to Him and so He let them do that so events would happen as they must, but despite Him tolersting divorce, He did not tolerate slavery, as can be seen by the commandment outlawing it,
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I had an ecclesiastes style depression but I have decided life may is worth living as I can help others and overcome more sin too to not feel miserable because of the death it brings,
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So why did Jesus say he has not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it?
 
Monkey D Theories

Monkey D Theories

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#365
#365
I don’t think it really matters what the Bible says.

The vast majority of Jews and Christians oppose slavery.

Religions grow and change over time

I don’t think you can truly get an understanding of a religion simply by pointing at a book written thousands of years ago.
 
Blax Blah

Blax Blah

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#366
#366
Monkey D Theories said:
I don’t think it really matters what the Bible says.

The vast majority of Jews and Christians oppose slavery.

Religions grow and change over time

I don’t think you can truly get an understanding of a religion simply by pointing at a book written thousands of years ago.
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If jewish people and christians follow the holy book then I think it does matter, it only doesn't matter if they just believe in a general God and vibes,
 
AL sama

AL sama

Red Haired
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#367
#367
technically speaking we're roots to god

so if you create robots would you allow them to be broken without performing any sort of maintenance on them or their universe??
 
Blax Blah

Blax Blah

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#368
#368
AL sama said:
technically speaking we're roots to god

so if you create robots would you allow them to be broken without performing any sort of maintenance on them or their universe??
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How so?

But I don't He does allow us to be broken, there is a verse about this,

2 Corinhians 4:8
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
 
Monkey D Theories

Monkey D Theories

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#371
#371
Blax Blah said:
If jewish people and christians follow the holy book then I think it does matter, it only doesn't matter if they just believe in a general God and vibes,
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I think you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you have an agenda.

If you want to actually understand what people believe, one should look at the common interpretations of Bible and not the text in of itself.
 
Blax Blah

Blax Blah

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#373
#373
AL sama said:
sorry what do you mean??he created us and programmed us didn't he??

btw are you a native English speaker??
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Yeah but if you believe humans have free will and that consciouness is real and not an illusion, robots don't have free will and do not exist as people with conciousness or experience but as a lot of 0s and 1s moving metal around,

And I'm not a native english speaker
 
AL sama

AL sama

Red Haired
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#374
#374
Blax Blah said:
Yeah but if you believe humans have free will and that consciouness is real and not an illusion, robots don't have free will and do not exist as people with conciousness or experience but as a lot of 0s and 1s moving metal around,

And I'm not a native english speaker
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Islam teaches us nothing can happen without god's will so saying things such as free will and whatnot is just nonsense

also robots nowadays has the thing that religions claim to be "free will"
 
Blax Blah

Blax Blah

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#375
#375
AL sama said:
Islam teaches us nothing can happen without god's will so saying things such as free will and whatnot is just nonsense

also robots nowadays has the thing that religions claim to be "free will"
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Yeah but God only allowing a range of things to happen doesn't mean we aren't free to choose within them and try going outside them and fail or be stopped,

Human free will is limited to a finite number of choices by a lot of factors anyway since humans are limited beings so our capacity to choose is between finite options,

But what do religions claim is free will thag robots have?

And may I ask why did you ask if I am a native english speaker?
 
Zenos7

Zenos7

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#379
#379
Monkey D Theories said:
I don’t think it really matters what the Bible says.

The vast majority of Jews and Christians oppose slavery.

Religions grow and change over time

I don’t think you can truly get an understanding of a religion simply by pointing at a book written thousands of years ago.
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I mostly agree, unless they defend said book and said problematic passages.
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Monkey D Theories said:
I think you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you have an agenda.

If you want to actually understand what people believe, one should look at the common interpretations of Bible and not the text in of itself.
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What about uncommon Interpretations of uncommon denominations?
 
Monkey D Theories

Monkey D Theories

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#380
#380
Zenos7 said:
What about uncommon Interpretations of uncommon denominations?
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I think your religious beliefs are very indicative of the type of person you want to be.

I like to cook Hanukkah donuts for my co-workers. Stuff like that is the part of religion I enjoy.

Someone else might want to go to the Middle East and kill people for their religion. People like that are insane.
 
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