Versus Battle Battle of Hango Redux

[Rumble]

Does Ou Sen still lose the Battle of Hango with this formation?

@Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @Blackbeard @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @RayanOO @Rumble @Greenbeard @Dark Admiral @Jailer @Peroroncino @Monet @Topi Jerami @Shanks @Cichy @Bullet @mmd @Yo Tan Wa @𝓓𝓡 . 𝕋𝒆ñ𝐦𝐚 @Darkrai1381 @tcb @Pirao @Luffy is the mc @Warchief Sanji D Goat @Bepo @Daniel @Pot Goblin @centurion @Ou Zen @Alexis2282AE @Ousen

 

[Xione]

Iirc, Riboku made a statement that he would have negated the HSU regardless of where they started because he had many of those lil forts built all around. Which imo, is Hara indirectly letting us know it wasn't about the positioning. He also wasn't underrating the HSU like in the prior arcs.


Akou still is going to fall for a trap, so that doesn't change anything. And Ouhon being there next to him isn't gonna do anything, when the reason Ousens commanders didn't move was due to unknown factor of Seikas army, which still remains.


Ousen deemed it best to have HSU take out Enkan rather than one of his own armies. Implying to me his commanders armies wouldn't be strong enough for that, though Enkan himself is pretty unknown in terms of General ability, just that can't compete with HSU. Ousens main army also wouldn't move as swiftly to his control as he'd want since Ouhon and HSU aren't his forces thus there's going to be a strategical delay.

And of course...the big issue is still there the Qin have 0 idea about the martial prowess of the Seika Army. There also isn't gonna be any plot help like Akou and Shiryou got against Gakushou and Jiaga with non-sensical 360 spins.


Maybe this makes the war last more than a day. Maybe this makes Riboku do more on the battlefield than just be a bait. Maybe Kansaro will go all out. Maybe Shibashou will go all out.


But there's no world where I see Ousen winning this when the core issues still remain and only thing changed is the positioning.

 

[Rumble]

Iirc, Riboku made a statement that he would have negated the HSU regardless of where they started because he had many of those lil forts built all around. Which imo, is Hara indirectly letting us know it wasn't about the positioning. He also wasn't underrating the HSU like in the prior arcs.

Akou still is going to fall for a trap, so that doesn't change anything. And Ouhon being there next to him isn't gonna do anything, when the reason Ousens commanders didn't move was due to unknown factor of Seikas army, which still remains.

Ri Boku gambled on the HSU having a frontline position for his scheme with the forts to work. I believe he would immediately abandon that scheme upon on the sight of Ou Sen keeping HSU on his hip, and I have no doubt he had contingencies - the fun part is discussing what they might be.

The entirety of RBK's grand strategy relied on taking Ou Sen unaware and pressing the advantage - that becomes much more difficult if Ou Sen is capable of preserving the HSU' strength.

Ousen deemed it best to have HSU take out Enkan rather than one of his own armies. Implying to me his commanders armies wouldn't be strong enough for that, though Enkan himself is pretty unknown in terms of General ability, just that can't compete with HSU. Ousens main army also wouldn't move as swiftly to his control as he'd want since Ouhon and HSU aren't his forces thus there's going to be a strategical delay.

And of course...the big issue is still there the Qin have 0 idea about the martial prowess of the Seika Army. There also isn't gonna be any plot help like Akou and Shiryou got against Gakushou and Jiaga with non-sensical 360 spins.

I have many issues with Hango, foremost of which being otherwise intelligent characters behaving stupidly to advance the plot.

It never made any sense for Ou Sen to position the HSU on the right wing. As you say, Ou Sen went into battle knowing they would face the strength of the "main" Seika Army. Why would he not keep his strongest assets closeby?

Hango was meant to be a surprise attack.

Spoiler: ch 770

Yet Ri Boku was there waiting for them - a year after anticipating their move on Gi'an and burrying Kan Ki.

Alarm bells should've been going off in Ou Sen's head whether the Seika Army was there or not. The Ou Sen we got in Hango might as well be a different character compared to the Ou Sen we got at Shukai.

Ou Sen from Shukai would have moved differently, starting with securing his ability to win in the most pivotal position - the centre.

Maybe this makes the war last more than a day. Maybe this makes Riboku do more on the battlefield than just be a bait. Maybe Kansaro will go all out. Maybe Shibashou will go all out.


But there's no world where I see Ousen winning this when the core issues still remain and only thing changed is the positioning.

I couldn't tell you how long I think the battle would last if Ou Sen started with this formation, but I can tell you with a high degree of certainty I don't see him losing it if little else changes, for a number of factors.

I think the more interesting debate is what Ri Boku could do with his 40K in the reserve to win.

 

[Elmahdi]

Ri Boku Will have no reason to Show up before akou and retreat/lock up himself in the fort,So He can command zhao's left wing.

You can be sure that Qin's right wing isn't surviving this scenarnio,Kyou Kai and Kyou Rei and OuHon and Akakin were barely able to hold their ground against Enkan's Numerical advantage(40 000),Now not only SouOu and Shiryou are weaker/less competent as commanders than OuHon/Kyou Kai but they will also face Ri Boku himself,and Even if The Denrimi move to support them,Zhao will still have the numerical advantahe(60 000 vs 70 000) without even using RiBoku/Futei Reserve army of 40 000?Qin's Right wing is done for.

Central Armies?OuHon isn't surviving Kansaro and Ji Aga in 2 vs 1(not only he will not have Denrimi's squad to support him like they did with Shiryou,But Both Kansaro and Ji Aga will be 100% serious from the start).

I Assume Akou will dominate Gakushou/Fuoon But SBS will probaly show up this here and You can said Bye to Akou.

What Left?Ousen and The Hi Shin will have to deal with The Charge of SBS,Kansaro,Ji Aga,Gakushou,Fuuon all whille being flanked by Ri Boku?

 

[Rumble]

Ri Boku Will have no reason to Show up before akou and retreat/lock up himself in the fort,So He can command zhao's left wing.

I agree Ri Boku wouldn't bother target A Kou with this formation (at least not as he originally intended), but I am not positive he goes to the Zhao Left Wing.

He'd have options and I think he'd realise pushing on all three fronts wouldn't get the job done and he'd be smarter focusing on winning one flank. imo the smarter move for RBK would be to use En Kan to deny Ou Sen use 2 of his vassals and 50-60K troops, while consolidating with the Ganmon armies on the Zhao Right Wing to defeat YTW and outflank Ou Sen.

You can be sure that Qin's right wing isn't surviving this scenarnio,Kyou Kai and Kyou Rei and OuHon and Akakin were barely able to hold their ground against Enkan's Numerical advantage(40 000),Now not only SouOu and Shiryou are weaker/less competent as commanders than OuHon/Kyou Kai but they will also face Ri Boku himself,and Even if The Denrimi move to support them,Zhao will still have the numerical advantahe(60 000 vs 70 000) without even using RiBoku/Futei Reserve army of 40 000?Qin's Right wing is done for.

To be fair, I don't entirely buy the HSU was not struggling initially because En Kan was playing possum, and Ou Hon was still pushing the offense when he took over.

Ka Ryo Ten in particular struggled shortly after Shin left because he took 1/3 of their number including most of their cavalry and best infantry troops.

Sou'Ou should be more than capable of holding the line with his own 30K and, say, a steady flow 20-25K troops from DRM, led by his officers to provide support.

Central Armies?OuHon isn't surviving Kansaro and Ji Aga in 2 vs 1(not only he will not have Denrimi's squad to support him like they did with Shiryou,But Both Kansaro and Ji Aga will be 100% serious from the start).

Setting aside that I absolutely believe Ou Hon would survive a 2v1, I'm not sure why you think he'd get into that situation to begin with?

Assuming almost everything else goes down the same: A Kou will face Gaku Shou's army initially, then Ou Hon will deal with Ji Aga's army and Ou Sen can send Shin or Kyou Kai to deal with Kan Saro - at that point, Ou Sen can afford to have Shin fighting in front of him.

I Assume Akou will dominate Gakushou/Fuoon But SBS will probaly show up this here and You can said Bye to Akou.

Casualties are still a risk, but if SBS shows up, I think Ou Sen will already be on the move defensively, with Shin at the centre of his schemes to neutralise SBS.

What Left?Ousen and The Hi Shin will have to deal with The Charge of SBS,Kansaro,Ji Aga,Gakushou,Fuuon all whille being flanked by Ri Boku?

Ri Boku would have to fight to get into a flanking position.

Bearing that in mind, I'm confident Ou Sen can beat SBS in a straightforward contest with these assets in the centre.

 

[Elmahdi]

but I am not positive he goes to the Zhao Left Wing.

It is the best position,He is pretty much useless in the centre,and Even if he went to the Right wing,YTW isn't falling in one day, ,Unlike The left wing where he had much bettter chances to quickly defeat Ousen's vassals so he can flank Qin's Central Army.

He'd have options and I think he'd realise pushing on all three fronts wouldn't get the job done and he'd be smarter focusing on winning one flank. imo the smarter move for RBK would be to use En Kan to deny Ou Sen use 2 of his vassals and 50-60K troops, while consolidating with the Ganmon armies on the Zhao Right Wing to defeat YTW and outflank Ou Sen.

He isn't pushing on all three fronts,All Zhao right wing was doing is to try to stall ytw.
Moving against ytw would change a thing,She isn't falling easily,The best thing thing Ri Boku can do is too cooperate with Enkan so they defeat Ousen's vassals.

Sou'Ou should be more than capable of holding the line with his own 30K and, say, a steady flow 20-25K troops from DRM, led by his officers to provide support.

Zhao still outnumbered them by a lot(Even without counting Ri Boku's reserve Army of 40 000,Zhao still outnumber them by 10 000)+and Ri Boku's presence will boost the morals to an insane level and his tactics should be more than enough to defeat any Vassal of ousen(Remember what happened when Ri Boku moved up against Akou in Shukai and how easily he deciphered his defensive tactic).
I don't see a world where Qin's right wing is surviving.

Setting aside that I absolutely believe Ou Hon would survive a 2v1, I'm not sure why you think he'd get into that situation to begin with?

Assuming almost everything else goes down the same: A Kou will face Gaku Shou's army initially, then Ou Hon will deal with Ji Aga's army and Ou Sen can send Shin or Kyou Kai to deal with Kan Saro - at that point, Ou Sen can afford to have Shin fighting in front of him.

I didn't assume that Ousen will send Shin or kyoukai,Bear in mind that all of this happening while Qin's right wing is at the verge of collapse,I assumed that OuSen will want to keep a strong fighter close so he don't get flanked.

 

[Rumble]

It is the best position,He is pretty much useless in the centre,and Even if he went to the Right wing,YTW isn't falling in one day, ,Unlike The left wing where he had much bettter chances to quickly defeat Ousen's vassals so he can flank Qin's Central Army.

YTW's armies were pushing in pretty early, I trust in RBK's ability to take advantage of that. I trust in his ability to beat YTW with a numerical advantage.

Ri Boku consolidating with En Kan on the Zhao Left Wing would've been a good option, I hesitate to call it the best option because a) his deputies and stronger armies were on Zhao Right Wing, and b) I trust Ou Sen and his vassals to be able to tighten up defensively.

If he were to move the 40K reserve to the Zhao Left Wing, Ou Sen would still be in position to make moves of his own. He could draw back Sou'Ou and DRM to consolidate closer on his flank, and/or dispatch the HSU in part or whole to help facilitate that move. There would be plenty for Ou Sen to do upon the sight of RBK moving that many troops.

He isn't pushing on all three fronts,All Zhao right wing was doing is to try to stall ytw.
Moving against ytw would change a thing,She isn't falling easily,The best thing thing Ri Boku can do is too cooperate with Enkan so they defeat Ousen's vassals.

The Zhao Right Wing couldn't have defeated YTW but I certainly believe they were supposed to try, and with RBK, Fu Tei another 40K they absolutely could have. I have no doubt of that tbh.

Zhao still outnumbered them by a lot(Even without counting Ri Boku's reserve Army of 40 000,Zhao still outnumber them by 10 000)+and Ri Boku's presence will boost the morals to an insane level and his tactics should be more than enough to defeat any Vassal of ousen(Remember what happened when Ri Boku moved up against Akou in Shukai and how easily he deciphered his defensive tactic).
I don't see a world where Qin's right wing is surviving.

I don't think Ou Sen would just allow anything to happen there. imo, if he's putting Sou'Ou on the Qin Right Wing and DRM in the reserve, he can probably count on them to fall back to a point he can reset.

There is good terrain for Ou Sen to take advantage of defensively, wouldn't you agree? I'm not talking about forts, so much as taking advantage of the hills, forests and mountains.

I didn't assume that Ousen will send Shin or kyoukai,Bear in mind that all of this happening while Qin's right wing is at the verge of collapse,I assumed that OuSen will want to keep a strong fighter close so he don't get flanked.

I definitely disagree you should take it for granted the Qin Right Wing will collapse.

Again, Ou Sen has many options to deal with that and the terrain is quite favourable to him recalling both Sou'Ou and DRM to form up closeby defensively, to which he could add troops from his own 30K while he conducts the defense - I believe Ou Sen could do that and deal with SBS in front of him at the same time.

 

[Elmahdi]

The Zhao Right Wing couldn't have defeated YTW but I certainly believe they were supposed to try, and with RBK, Fu Tei another 40K they absolutely could have. I have no doubt of that tbh.

YTW's armies were pushing in pretty early, I trust in RBK's ability to take advantage of that. I trust in his ability to beat YTW with a numerical advantage.

Ri Boku consolidating with En Kan on the Zhao Left Wing would've been a good option, I hesitate to call it the best option because a) his deputies and stronger armies were on Zhao Right Wing, and b) I trust Ou Sen and his vassals to be able to tighten up defensively.

YTW is a much much better head on head commander than RiBoku,I will bet on YTW over RiBoku in this scenario any day,For YTW(unlike Qin's right wing) numbers will not be that probleme(after all every mountain soldier equal to 3 normal soldiers without even taking into accoute her leadership that boost moral to an insane level),If anything Ri Boku showing up in the right wing will make things worse,Because YTW and her army will reconize him as the biggest prize ever and they will do anything to get him(I can't imagine How Insane their morals will be).

2-Everytime in the manga Ri Boku moved against one of ousen's vassals,the said vassal end up either dead/half dead/can do nothing(Makou in Shukai,Akou in both shukai and Hango+Denrimi wasn't able to do anything against Ri Boku's hyprid formation...),

The Zhao Right Wing couldn't have defeated YTW but I certainly believe they were supposed to try, and with RBK, Fu Tei another 40K they absolutely could have. I have no doubt of that tbh.

I Think you are underestimating YTW a bit too much,Not only zhao numerical advantage will be fully negated here due the mountain soldiers's natural strengh but also Ri Boku don't have vassals capable of dealing with even YTW's vassals let alone YTW herself(his strongest vassal bananji was marely able to stall YTW's 3rd strongest Danto,I Can't imagine what will happen once ytw herself move or if Bajio go berserk).

If he were to move the 40K reserve to the Zhao Left Wing, Ou Sen would still be in position to make moves of his own. He could draw back Sou'Ou and DRM to consolidate closer on his flank, and/or dispatch the HSU in part or whole to help facilitate that move. There would be plenty for Ou Sen to do upon the sight of RBK moving that many troops

Wouldn't that make things worse,Ousen drawing back Sou'Ou and DRM Would mean Ri Boku advancing,So The only thing that will happen is Ri Boku gaining a bit of ground,A numerical disadvantage of this scale(50 000 counting Ri Boku Reserve of 40 000) isn't something you can just defend against while having you hands full dealing with the seika army in the centre,not to mention that if Shukai showed anything is that that tacticaly speaking,Ri Boku better than Ousen(Reading Ousen's in the first day and moving against Makou which lead to the almost collapse of the left wing if it weren't for MouTen(Something wasn't planned by Ousen),Making moves at the right wing which put Akou off the board,Putting Ousen in more dangerous's pincer attack...).

I definitely disagree you should take it for granted the Qin Right Wing will collapse.

I don't see a world where this isn't happening.

 

[Rumble]

YTW is a much much better head on head commander than RiBoku,I will bet on YTW over RiBoku in this scenario any day,For YTW(unlike Qin's right wing) numbers will not be that probleme(after all every mountain soldier equal to 3 normal soldiers without even taking into accoute her leadership that boost moral to an insane level),If anything Ri Boku showing up in the right wing will make things worse,Because YTW and her army will reconize him as the biggest prize ever and they will do anything to get him(I can't imagine How Insane their morals will be).

I Think you are underestimating YTW a bit too much,Not only zhao numerical advantage will be fully neglated here due the mountain soldiers's natural strengh but also Ri Boku don't have vassals capable of dealing with even YTW's vassals let alone YTW herself(his strongest vassal bananji was marely able to stall YTW's 3rd strongest Danto,I Can't imagine what will happen once ytw herself move or if Bajio go berserk).

I can accept YTW being overall better in the open field at face value, but I push back at "much", and I remind you Ri Boku is not a stranger to open field battles and has the feats to prove it, including a crushing victory on the Xiongnu.

Further, the armies YTW was facing weren't run of the mill Zhao troops either, they're among the best RBK has, which is why they were positioned against YTW to begin with.

I'm confident Ri Boku would win on that wing with 90K already there. With an additional 40K and the use of Fu Tei, I don't see YTW winning. Holding out defensively, perhaps, but in any event, she'd be in real danger.

2-Everytime in the manga Ri Boku moved against one of ousen's vassals,the said vassal end up either dead/half dead/can do nothing(Makou in Shukai,Akou in both shukai and Hango+Denrimi wasn't able to do anything against Ri Boku's hyprid formation...),

That's plot though, we're discussing a hypothetical, and I don't believe RBK would have an easy time snatching any of Ou Sen's vassals if the latter is playing cautiously.

Wouldn't that make things worse,Ousen drawing back Sou'Ou and DRM Would mean Ri Boku advancing,So The only thing that will happen is Ri Boku gaining a bit of ground,A numerical disadvantage of this scale(50 000 counting Ri Boku Reserve of 40 000) isn't something you can just defend against while having you hands full dealing with the seika army in the centre,not to mention that if Shukai showed anything is that that tacticaly speaking,Ri Boku better than Ousen(Reading Ousen's in the first day and moving against Makou which lead to the almost collapse of the left wing if it weren't for MouTen(Something wasn't planned by Ousen),Making moves at the right wing which put Akou off the board,Putting Ousen in more dangerous's pincer attack...).

The centre army is already extremely formidable on the front and Ou Sen has another 60K in the rear. If Ri Boku did move to the Zhao Left Wing, Ou Sen would be a position he could easily afford to concede victory on the Qin Right Wing and draw back DRM and Sou'Ou closer to the HQ.

This would allow Ou Sen to reset with a new formation and have both the proximity and visibility to deal with SBS in front of him and RBK on his flank. With the way the terrain plays out, Ou Sen would effectively have himself a similar set up to Tou's Bell Formation.

I don't see a world where this isn't happening.

I struggle to see why when the Ou Sen Army is capable of high level tactics on the drop of a hat. You can't convince me it's beyond Ou Sen to draw back and reset.

Spoiler

 

[Elmahdi]

, including a crushing victory on the Xiongnu

We don't know how he managed that,If History is anything to go by,it was mainly a defensive War turned into counter attack.
Xiongnu walked into Ri Boku's trap.

The centre army is already extremely formidable on the front and Ou Sen has another 60K in the rear. If Ri Boku did move to the Zhao Left Wing, Ou Sen would be a position he could easily afford to concede victory on the Qin Right Wing and draw back DRM and Sou'Ou closer to the HQ.

Not formidable enough,I Don't see how Akou and OuHon with 60 000 will able to withstand SBS and all his vassals with 100 000,Unless Ousen send both Shin and KyouKai with All their 30 000(which would expose his flank) and even then it will be marely a stalemate(or a slight domination by qin).

to deal with SBS in front of him and RBK on his flank

I Don't know what you mean by "Deal" when all Ousen will be doing is to stall,And Hoping that his Vassals at the centre somehow Defeat The Seika while hoping that his flank somehow don't collapse.


I Think you aren't give enough credit to the massive numerical advantage that Ri Boku is enjoying,There is nothing Ousen or his vassals can do to overcame a 40 000 disadvantage.
The Qin's numerical disadvantage counting every wing in Shukai was 32 000,now Qin Left wing alone is facing a 40 000 more.

A Numerical disadvantage of this scale can be overcome only by Houken Level Martial Might/YTW level leadership(things that Ousen's vassals lack),Ousen will need to shin and kyoukai so his flank don't collapse but this will led to defeat at the centre.

Ousen will have to chose between his centre or flank.