Role Madness One Piece Mash 2.0

[Dr_Professor83]

My thinking is if you didn't remember/didn't know you simply wouldn't say anything. But you did anyway which is why I said it's either lying to downplay it, or misrepresenting it to downplay it. I accept it when you tell me you had the best of intentions but it doesn't change anything for me. I think it's not unreasonable to feel pile you might have been trying to brush it away because yiu don't want it to become a bigger issue and colour this game. I'm saying I expect complete objectivity in these situations.

I’m saying I gave what I thought was a pretty objective answer. It didn’t and still doesn’t feel like as serious as you see it but your bar as the mod is the only one that matters. That’s one of the main reason I’m even considering that my perception is “wrong” is where it is “in relation to the bar you’re setting”. But I didn’t expect this to be where your bar was going to be when I said it wasn’t that bad.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

I still even now see my stance as more “objective” when it comes how bad it is (although this is not assuming a zero tolerance standard), or perhaps more close because I am willing to say I might have been colored by the fun I was having as a team. But even then I feel like it wasn’t egregious especially when compared to what I compare it to (stuff like Crown Witch, etc).

It’s like if people have been spending 80 miles over the speed limit, someone doing 15 doesn’t seem like a particularly serious crime. But I didn’t realize the standard was going to be set at “you speed you jail” when I said they weren’t speeding that bad.

 

[Ratchet]

I’m saying I gave what I thought was a pretty objective answer. It didn’t and still doesn’t feel like as serious as you see it but your bar as the mod is the only one that matters. That’s one of the main reason I’m even considering that my perception is “wrong” is where it is “in relation to the bar you’re setting”. But I didn’t expect this to be where your bar was going to be when I said it wasn’t that bad.

Eh, I dunno, I feel like Fuji saying he was done with it all after the game ends and Ekko telling him the game was designed to make fun of who rolled Mafia are all pretty strong cuts that don't get to just be handwaved away. It's not the most egregious by any means but it's pretty bad, especially in the context of the game, where there was little to no real stress involved in playing it. And I feel like if it's going to be this bad even in pretty optimal conditions for a scum team as far as their positioning goes, then a more competitive game would be all the worse. Context *is* relevant when it comes to judging this stuff.

 

[Ratchet]

I still even now see my stance as more “objective” when it comes how bad it is (although this is not assuming a zero tolerance standard), or perhaps more close because I am willing to say I might have been colored by the fun I was having as a team. But even then I feel like it wasn’t egregious especially when compared to what I compare it to (stuff like Crown Witch, etc).

It’s like if people have been spending 80 miles over the speed limit, someone doing 15 doesn’t seem like a particularly serious crime. But I didn’t realize the standard was going to be set at “you speed you jail” when I said they weren’t speeding that bad.

The speeding is a poor analogy because it reverses the context - in your speeding analogy, it being calm and open means there is less consequence to speeding and thus easier to look the other way. Here, complaining in spite of having a pretty easy ride suggests that insulting the host (by implying shenanigans are going on with the game, or even outright saying they are) has become very normalised to the point of it being done for the sake of it being done. And that's just not going to be acceptable at all.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

Eh, I dunno, I feel like Fuji saying he was done with it all after the game ends and Ekko telling him the game was designed to make fun of who rolled Mafia are all pretty strong cuts that don't get to just be handwaved away. It's not the most egregious by any means but it's pretty bad, especially in the context of the game, where there was little to no real stress involved in playing it. And I feel like if it's going to be this bad even in pretty optimal conditions for a scum team as far as their positioning goes, then a more competitive game would be all the worse. Context *is* relevant when it comes to judging this stuff.

Yeah I mean you’re probably right to a degree. Fuji also says he’s done every game (so the fact he said that and quickly seemed to be fine and back joking to me implied it was a small knee jerk reaction that he didn’t take it that serious.)

And the saying it was designed to troll mafia doesn’t line up with the other stuff I remember him saying in the chat severity wise/whenever he did say something close to that he’d pull back (making it also more of a short burst of knee jerk reaction that quickly reigned in).

Again if the standard is you can’t have those kind of reactions that’s still a different bar than what I was comparing to as what I feel is true toxicity. Fuji is probably the most valid person to get that read on. He’s hosted almost all the games with various levels of complaints to compare where he feels this was on that broader scale.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

The speeding is a poor analogy because it reverses the context - in your speeding analogy, it being calm and open means there is less consequence to speeding and thus easier to look the other way. Here, complaining in spite of having a pretty easy ride suggests that insulting the host (by implying shenanigans are going on with the game, or even outright saying they are) has become very normalised to the point of it being done for the sake of it being done. And that's just not going to be acceptable at all.

The speeding analogy is just because it’s an easy crime to measure by numbers when it comes to the degree.

I’m fine with a low tolerance line or whatever. I don’t like the complaining being normalized either. But also, I know people are human and get frustrated. You’ve been frustrated in games. I’ve been frustrated in games. Everyone playing mafia but the most emotionless stone cold people have had knee jerk reactions to mechanics and perceived balance.

Ekko has much more than most (a bit of an understatement, Fuji & I always talk about it in host PMs) and should reel it in. I’d prefer less than what was in this game too. But again I guess I’m comparing it to the tolerance I’ve built up and you’re comparing it to the more ideal hypothetical status quote. The normalization is exactly why it doesn’t feel as severe to me. I’m not really factoring in ease of game for it, and I understand where you are. But it still even with that context doesn’t change my feeling of “this is not nearly as bad as the insanely toxic PMs I’ve actually been in”

 

[Dr_Professor83]

I’m saying I don’t think I disagree much with your bar. But I also don’t disagree with my feeling of “this was not that bad for Worstgen as it currently exists”.

It’s like if you got raided every year by pirates and 100 people died. Then next raid only 10 died you’d feel like “eh that’s not that bad, good year”. When someone who isn’t always raided by pirates would consider those 10 deaths a year a tragedy.

 

[Ratchet]

Yeah I mean you’re probably right to a degree. Fuji also says he’s done every game (so the fact he said that and quickly seemed to be fine and back joking to me implied it was a small knee jerk reaction that he didn’t take it that serious.)

The fact he has that reaction at all is unacceptable. It means it has fully been normalised as part and parcel of the hosting experience. Him saying it every game is not the rebuttal you think it is. It underscores the issue exactly. And it will not change if it continues to be enabled, or excused. Whether he truly takes it to heart or whether he says it in emotion is truly irrelevant here. That should not be the standard hosts are treated to here. It just shouldn't be.

And the saying it was designed to troll mafia doesn’t line up with the other stuff I remember him saying in the chat severity wise/whenever he did say something close to that he’d pull back (making it also more of a short burst of knee jerk reaction that quickly reigned in).

I don't care. This game, especially, this sort of thing was entirely inexcusable. And the fact it happened anyway has genuinely annoyed me, because it means that there is no circumstance, currently, where this won't happen. That ends when hosts stop wanting to host and new hosts feel like if they try to host they're going to get ripped for everything. So they just don't host either.

Again if the standard is you can’t have those kind of reactions that’s still a different bar than what I was comparing to as what I feel is true toxicity. Fuji is probably the most valid person to get that read on. He’s hosted almost all the games with various levels of complaints to compare where he feels this was on that broader scale.

It's not a cut and dry standard. If the game is highly competitive and whomever complains is stressed to the point where they just say something, I can understand that and try to be lenient within reason. There are still lines that shouldn't be crossed, and I would argue that some things here went beyond those too, but I'm not looking for ways to ban people, believe it or not. But this? This needs to change.

And my disappointment with you, and Yoho, with is because when I ask what the situation was, I expect an objective and honest account. And I didn't get that, for whatever reason. All I will say further on this is that enabling this sort of thing is not helpful and will not un-normalise it.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

If I’d known even this was outside of the bar you were setting, I’d have given you different feedback. I was going off where my bar as been set

 

[Dr_Professor83]

The fact he has that reaction at all is unacceptable. It means it has fully been normalised as part and parcel of the hosting experience. Him saying it every game is not the rebuttal you think it is. It underscores the issue exactly. And it will not change if it continues to be enabled, or excused. Whether he truly takes it to heart or whether he says it in emotion is truly irrelevant here. That should not be the standard hosts are treated to here. It just shouldn't be.
I don't care. This game, especially, this sort of thing was entirely inexcusable. And the fact it happened anyway has genuinely annoyed me, because it means that there is no circumstance, currently, where this won't happen. That ends when hosts stop wanting to host and new hosts feel like if they try to host they're going to get ripped for everything. So they just don't host either.
It's not a cut and dry standard. If the game is highly competitive and whomever complains is stressed to the point where they just say something, I can understand that and try to be lenient within reason. There are still lines that shouldn't be crossed, and I would argue that some things here went beyond those too, but I'm not looking for ways to ban people, believe it or not. But this? This needs to change.

And my disappointment with you, and Yoho, with is because when I ask what the situation was, I expect an objective and honest account. And I didn't get that, for whatever reason. All I will say further on this is that enabling this sort of thing is not helpful and will not un-normalise it.

I don’t even disagree with most or probably any of what you’re saying here. Other than I think it’s hard to hold me to a standard of feedback when we weren’t looking at it through the same lens even if my lens was wrong due to what I’ve come to expect.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

I don’t even disagree with most or probably any of what you’re saying here. Other than I think it’s hard to hold me to a standard of feedback when we weren’t looking at it through the same lens even if my lens was wrong due to what I’ve come to expect.

Or more accurately hold it against me as a person than hold it as a standard for better wording. It would be better for what you’re expecting next time after this post game. Though you seem to have written off giving me that chance

 

[Ratchet]

Or more accurately hold it against me as a person than hold it as a standard for better wording. It would be better for what you’re expecting next time after this post game. Though you seem to have written off giving me that chance

Fact is I'll probably just have to do it myself completely which isn't particularly fun or easy but seems to be the most reliable way for now. I haven't written off anything, but I can only work with something as far as it will work with me too. If that makes sense.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

Fact is I'll probably just have to do it myself completely which isn't particularly fun or easy but seems to be the most reliable way for now. I haven't written off anything, but I can only work with something as far as it will work with me too. If that makes sense.

I’m sorry I let you down. Letting down people I like is the opposite of what I like doing.

Spoiler

My particular blend of BPD makes that like, the number one thing for destructive self criticism lol. Though I’m rationally fighting through my arch nemesis (the other half of my brain) right now telling it to chill and fortunately winning that wrestle match right now lol

 

[Ratchet]

I’m sorry I let you down. Letting down people I like is the opposite of what I like doing.

Spoiler

My particular blend of BPD makes that like, the number one thing for destructive self criticism lol. Though I’m rationally fighting through my arch nemesis (the other half of my brain) right now telling it to chill and fortunately winning that wrestle match right now lol

Don't take it to heart, it's not that serious. We're cool etc.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

Don't take it to heart, it's not that serious. We're cool etc.

Yeah I know lol. You know me it’s just the voices

Just making it as clear as I can that I try lol

 

[Fujishiro]

Yeah I know lol. You know me it’s just the voices

Just making it as clear as I can that I try lol

You arent trying hard enough, back to the dungeon with you.

 

[Dr_Professor83]

You arent trying hard enough, back to the dungeon with you.

You need to just keep me in there Idk why you keep letting me escape!

 

[Fujishiro]

You need to just keep me in there Idk why you keep letting me escape!

I’ll get a bigger set of locks this time.

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

especially in the context of the game, where there was little to no real stress involved in playing it. And I feel like if it's going to be this bad even in pretty optimal conditions for a scum team as far as their positioning goes, then a more competitive game would be all the worse.

this right here is the issue ratchet.

i havent complained once remotely close to anything like here in any conpetitve scum game in OLF because the games r actually somewhat balanced and i dont feel like im getting trolled by the host. take a game like the boys for example, my only scum loss the past 2 years, in that game when i died... i died laughing

there was 0 complains in the chat. the game was competitve. it was a fun time

you are avoiding the main reason of the complains here being the egregious design of the town roles which im sure u agree with. if u dont then i dont see a point in us continuing this conversation

my problem here isnt that the game was casual or whatever. my problem is i thought the game wud be more competetively balanced, and i got infuriated every time i see something that proves otherwise. i mostly lost it when i saw your role because i think its bat shit design

i also have 0 doubt that fuji is catering to flower's fun by giving her a role that comes back to life. 0 doubt. she always complains about dying and not being confirmed etc... he gave her a confirmed semi-IC mason role that also comes back.... bat shit stuff for the team that has to play against it

then i saw there was a second revive and 50 source of kills in the game and i started pondering if im wasting my time playing this or not. it was my teammates who helped me power through cuz otherwise i wouldnt have really bothered. after i saw gianfi's day revive and your role i knew i shudnt take this seriously

ofcourse all of this was happening when a sizable amount of our strong abilities were locked so it looked like we were very undermanned and underpowered. even at the very end i still think town was way way stronger rolewise so im baffled u think mafia doesnt have a reason to complain here just because they were winning

we were winning because we r the goats. not because the setup was favorable to us. we complained because it wasnt and we got frustrated seeing as we are shitting on town yet the setup is equalizing things.


town has 10 town controlled kills this game. against a team of 4-5. ofcourse ill complain. thats an abomination. 2 of the dead townies got revived too

i dont have anything against fuji. he made great games this year. ill probably forget about this one in 2 days, aside of the memes and your ego/cope providing me with this very entertainment i suppose

 

[Fujishiro]

i also have 0 doubt that fuji is catering to flower's fun by giving her a role that comes back to life. 0 doubt. she always complains about dying and not being confirmed etc... he gave her a confirmed semi-IC mason role that also comes back.... bat shit stuff for the team that has to play against it

This is bullshit btw, she wanted to be mafia with her role and it was completely different from the one I gave her. I gave her a traveling merchant role that still fit with the idea that she would find a place to stay (IE a mason) and sell her wares.

Like miss me with these accusations bro. Was I catering to you when I made the desperado not work on GFs?