General & Others One Piece would be better without celestial dragons / holy whatever people

#1
They're too cartoonishly evil, and don't fit the manga's pirate theme. The plot was about adventure/comrades/mutual support/freedom, not dystopia.

When they first appeared in the Sabaody Arc, it felt so forced: "Please, my dear reader, let Luffy punching Charlos evoke some righteos emotion in you, Luffy is so cool and Zoro is so badass they challenged status-quo!!!". But even as a teenager, I felt no emotion at all, because a ridiculous, ugly "astronaut" riding a slave and killing him because "i'm bored" is too fucking goofy even for One Piece.
And I won't even mention Garling and his flashback. The scene where he murdered his wife looks like a comedy sketch, but supposed as serious one.
 
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#2
Well to be fair even in real life the biggest enemies of real life pirates were Nobles and aristocrats.

maybe the characterization of the celestial dragons is too much but the general concept of “pirates vs nobles” is a fundamental pirate story. Hence why Oda repeats it even inside of arcs either Doffy, Enel, Wapol, Orochi, big mom being evil Rulers and arc villains.
 
#7
Well to be fair even in real life the biggest enemies of real life pirates were Nobles and aristocrats.

maybe the characterization of the celestial dragons is too much but the general concept of “pirates vs nobles” is a fundamental pirate story. Hence why Oda repeats it even inside of arcs either Doffy, Enel, Wapol, Orochi, big mom being evil Rulers and arc villains.
We could keep Gorosei and their military (marines) as enemy. Just without "holy-evil-aristocracy"-taste, but with "gray empty bureacracy"-design. Evil aristocracy trope is too centered around corrupted people, while gray-no-fun bureacracy theme centered around breaking out of chains (not only physical ones) and system as whole. Oda force us to hate CD and their atrocities, but not tell us about how and why this system works, how people tolerate this, how to broke out of it, etc. Its too shallow — "you just need to beat ugly-corrupted-tyranical asshole in direct fight and everything will be fine"; but what about tyranny that he creates, is it instantly disappeared once he defeated?
Plus i dont think story about pirates should be mainly about fighting dystopia directly — its about beliefs. As WB told us: finding OP will shake whole world; which means you dont need to fight every marine or agitize every civilian — revolution will happen in mind and dreams of people once they find true. The story is about OP and sworn family who support your beliefs (dreams). So, adding new strong guys to WG and make them super duper evil is kinda pointless and kinda lame. Like, i mean, we already have Blackbeard who is final villain material...
 
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#9
It would've worked if the manga had stayed true to the original depictions of gorosei.

They weren't really good guys sure; but they were nuanced, diplomatic and preferred avoiding unnecessary violence. They were interested in balance. They tried giving an out to Ohara researchers even, and preferred evacuating civilians (killing them was Akainu's idea). They even protested against Imu and wanted to avoid using mother flame on civilians.

It makes sense to imagine spoiled trash royals like Charlos, and calculating smart royals like Gorosei who want to rule and maintain an empire.

But then, Oda just threw all nuance out of the window and made ALL of them cartoon villains. And Gorosei to mindless slaves of Imu. It sucks.
But their initial intro wasn't all that bad.
 
#10
I disagree
It probably won't be long before Oda says that CDs were pirates too
On the other hand, nobles have always been opponents of pirates, and on the other hand, there really are such people in our world too
These people don't even breathe the air of ordinary people and look down on them. They seem like real villains and are palpable to everyone
 
#11
We could keep Gorosei and their military (marines) as enemy. Just without "holy-evil-aristocracy"-taste, but with "gray empty bureacracy"-design. Evil aristocracy trope is too centered around corrupted people, while gray-no-fun bureacracy theme centered around breaking out of chains (not only physical ones) and system as whole. Oda force us to hate CD and their atrocities, but not tell us about how and why this system works, how people tolerate this, how to broke out of it, etc. Its too shallow — "you just need to beat ugly-corrupted-tyranical asshole in direct fight and everything will be fine"; but what about tyranny that he creates, is it instantly disappeared once he defeated?
Plus i dont think story about pirates should be mainly about fighting dystopia directly — its about beliefs. As WB told us: finding OP will shake whole world; which means you dont need to fight every marine or agitize every civilian — revolution will happen in mind and dreams of people once they find true. The story is about OP and sworn family who support your beliefs (dreams). So, adding new strong guys to WG and make them super duper evil is kinda pointless and kinda lame. Like, i mean, we already have Blackbeard who is final villain material...
But Luffy has to punch someone. This is in the DNA of the manga itself. It stops being One piece if the problem isn’t solved by Luffy punching someone.

There has to be a head noble to for Luffy to punch. And So Oda had to create a philosophy around what this head noble is. And he just copied the real world. In the real world most Kings are given divine rights. The story of Alexander the Great being a descendant of Zues exists because this is what’s always done, they always say Kings are vaguely divine.

Hence why the CDs end up “holy” because Oda is exaggerating the real life shit where the King, and by extension his whole family, are godly which is a thing in almost every culture in the world.

everything else, how evil and maniacal the CDs are is just an extension of that. And it is also true in the real world. In fact the real world can be much worse than OP. For example did you know that Slave traders in the real world used to Eat Black people. Yes, the very same White civilized Europeans who called anyone they came across “cannibal barbarians” used to Eat their slaves, but not for “barbaric” reasons, but for “Civilized” reasons like “Science” and “enjoyment”

Somehow OP and Celestial dragons have NOT gotten this evil yet. And the shit they do which you call cartoonish can be seen on the News right now being done today, for example by the IDF in Gaza.

The most unrealistic and cartoonish thing about the Celestial dragons is that they havent imploded. You are correct in that it makes no sense how all this evil hasn’t collapsed the CD rule either from the outside through rebellion or from inside through their own barbarism. You are right, this is the most badly written aspect of the CDs, that they exist 800 years later.

but outside of that, their very existence at all isn’t that outlandish, and it’s probably not even as bad as certain real world parallels
 
#14
You’ve clearly never met a rich person
:gokulaugh:

Anyone who thinks the Celestial Dragons are too cartoonishly evil has never met a super wealthy person in their lives. If anything the Celestial Dragons aren’t evil enough.
I'm pretty sure if you put a sassenach like Pol Pot in a story, folk would go "he's too cartoonishly evil".

Unfortunately for Cambodia, he was real. :risistare:

I cannot comprehend the thought process of a bloke that sees a man wearing glasses and thinks to himself "Hmm, well he looks too intellectual wearing those. Gonna kill everyone with poor eyesight now."
 
#15
I'm pretty sure if you put a sassenach like Pol Pot in a story, folk would go "he's too cartoonishly evil".

Unfortunately for Cambodia, he was real. :risistare:

I cannot comprehend the thought process of a bloke that sees a man wearing glasses and thinks to himself "Hmm, well he looks too intellectual wearing those. Gonna kill everyone with poor eyesight now."
Hence, the banality of evil.
 
#16
I probably wouldn't be reading it beyond Skypea if there was no World Government (by extension the CD). So will have to disagree.

It seems cartoonish because there's never been an entity who has had that much of a tight control on the world irl. However, there's plenty of CD-lite people during colonial times under the British Empire. Slave masters in the US, also many times acted like CDs. Let alone we go even more back in history, where we had noble families treating peasants like w.e

They're exaggerated due to the scale in which they have control of power. They're by all means in terms of control on the world essentially demi-gods.
 
#18
They're too cartoonishly evil, and don't fit the manga's pirate theme. The plot was about adventure/comrades/mutual support/freedom, not dystopia.

When they first appeared in the Sabaody Arc, it felt so forced: "Please, my dear reader, let Luffy punching Charlos evoke some righteos emotion in you, Luffy is so cool and Zoro is so badass they challenged status-quo!!!". But even as a teenager, I felt no emotion at all, because a ridiculous, ugly "astronaut" riding a slave and killing him because "i'm bored" is too fucking goofy even for One Piece.
And I won't even mention Garling and his flashback. The scene where he murdered his wife looks like a comedy sketch, but supposed as serious one.
Pretty much. At best Oda should've just stuck with regular nobles and royalty when the plot needed it, or just make the Gorosei the main WG bad guys and have the Holy Knights be some sort of elite troop rather than a bunch of spoiled psychopaths. Even the CDs have too much freedom, while even most of the worst nobles in history had to at least 'pretend' they followed the law in public, much like the worthless celebrities and politicians of today.

It's like every CD minus the knights is just a clone of Spain's infamous Criminal King Ferdinand VII, who was both a tyrant and a massive idiot. Even other nobles hated his ass.
 
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