Powers & Abilities Sanji used ACoC to kick Kizaru’s beam

[Royal Kick]

Off the top of my head? Lola and Hancock are just as big as Sanji when it comes to being a cornball.

Those points were meant to be put together to show the obvious parallel, it's cumulative evidence. Lola and Hancock talking about love would only be relevant if it was part of a broader comparison, you can't separate every single point and nitpick like that. It's like trying to counter a comparison between Luffy and Roger both wearing the straw hat by talking about Shanks wearing it too, or countering a comparison between Zoro and Rayleigh being drunk bozos by mentioning another drunk bozo. It's the whole picture that matters.

Your proof of Gaban being like Sanji is "who else is like Sanji"? You can't use the thing to prove itself.

That's not what I said. I didn't say "who else is like Sanji?", nor am I trying to prove Gaban is "like Sanji" (whatever that means). I'm highlighting a parallel. And again, my question was meant to be taken with additional cumulative evidence to show the parallel was real, so you can't single out a rhetorical question as if it was meant to define the whole point in itself, it makes no sense.

Gaban is a conqueror who uses CoO and CoC to high degrees. Combat wise he's clearly different from Sanji.

Would be hard for Sanji to use something he hasn't unlocked yet.

Spoiler

You must understand that it's not simply me, or this board, with this suggestion. From the start of smashing into each other when Jinbe clashed with Luffy then sharing the opponent in FI, they have always been comparable and Sanji is clearly competitive.

You included a lot of irrelevant panels that have nothing to do with strength. Sanji saying he doesn't care about S-Shark looking like Jinbe, or being jealous about the positive attention he gets from Nami, or threatening Jinbe because of Nami's painful past, has nothing to do with strength. You can't just take every interaction between them and treat that as evidence of Sanji's position being threatened, this makes no sense.

You have a million interactions similar to those between Zoro and Sanji, yet we know Zoro will always be number 2, which I'm sure you agree with. So apply the same rigour with those two and talk about what's really relevant.

Them sharing their opponent in Fishman Island would be a valid point if that wasn't way before Jinbe joined the crew. He was stronger than both Zoro and Sanji at the time, which is probably why he didn't join back then. We're talking about how things are now that he's part of the crew, that's what matters. And reality is Zoro and Sanji are constantly singled out.

Zoro and Sanji took down Yonko Commanders in Wano, not Jinbe
Zoro and Sanji were called the Wings of Luffy, not Jinbe
Zoro and Sanji are Rayleigh and Gaban's parallels, not Jinbe
Zoro and Sanji are about to join the rest of the crew to save them from Imu, while Jinbe got captured like the rest of them
Oda keeps highlighting the OG trio constantly, making it clear the M3 remains unchanged

- doesn't give a shit about cooking
- doesn't throw "kuso" into everything
- doesn't smoke often
- fights with weapons
- doesn't lose his shit in front of women even in his youth

That one gag can only carry you so far man.

"Parallel" doesn't mean "clone", it makes no sense that you'd believe they have to be nearly indentical for the parallel to be relevant. The point is to show Gaban was Roger's Sanji, so Sanji will have equal relevance strength-wise. And that's what CoC is about, relevance and destiny.

So if the point you're trying to make is those differences show Sanji doesn't have to get CoC, it makes as much sense as pointing out the differences between Luffy and Roger to deny the parallel between them. Luffy and Roger ultimately both have CoC because they hold the same place in the story, with one being the former PK and the other one being the future PK. Same with the right-hand men, Zoro and Rayleigh. But then, all of a sudden, it doesn't hold true for the left-hand man because he doesn't smoke or fight with his feet? Lol.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Those points were meant to be put together to show the obvious parallel, it's cumulative evidence. Lola and Hancock talking about love would only be relevant if it was part of a broader comparison, you can't separate every single point and nitpick like that. It's like trying to counter a comparison between Luffy and Roger both wearing the straw hat by talking about Shanks wearing it too, or countering a comparison between Zoro and Rayleigh being drunk bozos by mentioning another drunk bozo. It's the whole picture that matters.

I certainly wouldn't use the straw hat to compare Luffy and Roger, lol. We have the series rooted in Luffy essentially wanting to be the next Roger and inadvertently being more like Roger than he can even understand. I'm not creating a comparison between any characters and then just excluding Sanji from having an equivalent just because.

That's not what I said. I didn't say "who else is like Sanji?", nor am I trying to prove Gaban is "like Sanji" (whatever that means). I'm highlighting a parallel. And again, my question was meant to be taken with additional cumulative evidence to show the parallel was real, so you can't single out a rhetorical question as if it was meant to define the whole point in itself, it makes no sense.

So it's not what I did, but I do know what you mean on that first point about throwing in a third character to dismiss what two characters have in common. But the rhetorical question isn't any better. I think we can get that doing an example using other characters to do either thing doesn't work

You included a lot of irrelevant panels that have nothing to do with strength. Sanji saying he doesn't care about S-Shark looking like Jinbe, or being jealous about the positive attention he gets from Nami, or threatening Jinbe because of Nami's painful past, has nothing to do with strength. You can't just take every interaction between them and treat that as evidence of Sanji's position being threatened, this makes no sense.

I didn't include anything, that was an image that popped up on the first page of searching "Sanji and Jinbe."

Them sharing their opponent in Fishman Island would be a valid point if that wasn't way before Jinbe joined the crew. He was stronger than both Zoro and Sanji at the time, which is probably why he didn't join back then. We're talking about how things are now that he's part of the crew, that's what matters. And reality is Zoro and Sanji are constantly singled out.

There's no reason to believe that Jinbe was stronger than Luffy or Zoro at the time, albeit still closer than he is now that they've used CoC in battle.

Zoro and Sanji took down Yonko Commanders in Wano, not Jinbe
Zoro and Sanji were called the Wings of Luffy, not Jinbe
Zoro and Sanji are Rayleigh and Gaban's parallels, not Jinbe
Zoro and Sanji are about to join the rest of the crew to save them from Imu, while Jinbe got captured like the rest of them
Oda keeps highlighting the OG trio constantly, making it clear the M3 remains unchanged

Sanji is #3 because of his history. Jinbe's membership or strength (he has not been "upgraded" in any arc before or after time skip) had nothing to do with Queen outright calling Sanji the #3. The parallel with Gaban is actually even less relevant in the narrative because it has no sufficient recognition outside of Luffy's joke. As readers, of course we understand why the comparison has existed from the moment we heard the name of Gaban.

Getting back to strength, Sanji doesn't have CoC. He'd have ended up just like Jinbe even if he did, though, because of the enemy's gender. Yes, Sanji had unquestionably the stronger opponent in Wano... but Jinbe unquestionably had the easier time in his fight.

"Parallel" doesn't mean "clone", it makes no sense that you'd believe they have to be nearly indentical for the parallel to be relevant. The point is to show Gaban was Roger's Sanji, so Sanji will have equal relevance strength-wise. And that's what CoC is about, relevance and destiny.

My point isn't that they should be more alike for the sake of a parallel, it's that the parallel itself isn't all that relevant anyway. Like if you think Sanji will have CoC because Gaban has it, then I think you're a bit too fixated on the parallel. So yes, you're right that it's not a matter of Sanji being a clone.

A lot of people seem hung up on Zoro having it and want to make the connection to Ray, but we knew the kind of man Zoro would become before Sabaody. He has a very particular ambition and destiny baked into his character.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

@Sir Yasheen @Shiroyru @ZenZu which take is the TAKE of 2025,

Gaban ain't Sanji parallel?

Or, Akainu's full name is Sakazuki Akainu?

Or, Xebec kills multiple Admirals because of the "Admiral's"?

 

[Royal Kick]

I certainly wouldn't use the straw hat to compare Luffy and Roger, lol. We have the series rooted in Luffy essentially wanting to be the next Roger and inadvertently being more like Roger than he can even understand. I'm not creating a comparison between any characters and then just excluding Sanji from having an equivalent just because.

Why? You think this was a mere coincidence and not a way for Oda to strengthen the obvious connection?

So it's not what I did, but I do know what you mean on that first point about throwing in a third character to dismiss what two characters have in common. But the rhetorical question isn't any better. I think we can get that doing an example using other characters to do either thing doesn't work

It perfectly works in the context of cumulative evidence, because it shows it's not a coincidence. All those rhetorical questions together draw a meaningful picture you can't dismiss by separating those things into individual and independent points, it's disingenuous.

I didn't include anything, that was an image that popped up on the first page of searching "Sanji and Jinbe."

What difference does that make? Didn't you just use that as evidence of your point? If you're gonna use that to argue Sanji's position is threatened, obviously I'm gonna explain why I think it doesn't work.

Getting back to strength, Sanji doesn't have CoC. He'd have ended up just like Jinbe even if he did, though, because of the enemy's gender. Yes, Sanji had unquestionably the stronger opponent in Wano... but Jinbe unquestionably had the easier time in his fight.

That's irrelevant, we're talking about portrayal. He'd have ended up like Jinbe, but there's a reason Oda chose to avoid that. We argue based on what happens, not based on what we imagine could have happened.

Same with their Wano opponent, it's about portrayal. Sanji faces the #3 because the crew's #3 is Sanji, not Jinbe. It's not more complicated than that. Jinbe having an easier time is as meaningless as Sanji having generally an easier time than Zoro against his opponents, that doesn't threaten Zoro's #2 status. Same with Sanji's.

My point isn't that they should be more alike for the sake of a parallel, it's that the parallel itself isn't all that relevant anyway. Like if you think Sanji will have CoC because Gaban has it, then I think you're a bit too fixated on the parallel. So yes, you're right that it's not a matter of Sanji being a clone.

It's not a matter of being too fixated on parallels, it's about understanding why they exist. Just like Luffy/Roger and Zoro/Rayleigh, it's all about narrative significiance and where characters are headed. Sanji is the nex gen's Gaban, meaning he'll hold the same importance and will be at least equally powerful. You think it doesn't have to mean he'll do it thanks to CoC, but I think that's missing the whole point of CoC. CoC is trait meant to show how great you are, it's not about fighting style or any other trivial traits.

A lot of people seem hung up on Zoro having it and want to make the connection to Ray, but we knew the kind of man Zoro would become before Sabaody. He has a very particular ambition and destiny baked into his character.

Which is exactly why Oda gave it to Rayleigh in the first place. Those aren't independent elements linked by coincidence. At the end of the day, just like Gaban with Sanji, Rayleigh exists for the sake of Zoro, who is a main character. Even if he was Luffy's teacher, that's a function that could have been fulfilled by any strong characters, Zoro's parallel having CoC wasn't a requirement for Luffy's path specifically. Rayleigh shared those similarities specifically with Zoro to hint at where Zoro was headed.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Why? You think this was a mere coincidence and not a way for Oda to strengthen the obvious connection?

1. We don't know what the straw hat means and 2. It doesn't necessarily have to have a meaning. This is why people who would have seen straw hat Roger or straw hat Shanks don't always make the connection. Oda was halfway into the series before he even showed Roger wearing it as by then, the connection between the two men was almost entirely filled in as we know it. So no, there was no point in referencing this in a response to me as the hat itself doesn't have anything to do with how I view Sanji and "inherited will" concepts in general.

What difference does that make? Didn't you just use that as evidence of your point? If you're gonna use that to argue Sanji's position is threatened, obviously I'm gonna explain why I think it doesn't work.

You seem to be disagreeing with what I'm saying but the reason I said it is because I'm definitely not the only one who sees it. I can essentially guarantee that by the end of the arc there will be yet another comparison between them.

He'd have ended up like Jinbe

Yep

Sanji having generally an easier time than Zoro against his opponents

Had Jinbe help at FI, lost to Vergo, defeated by Doflamingo, lost to Judge and his brothers, lost to Gifters/Black Maria, collapsed from fighting Queen. Zoro was not hit cleanly in Egghead where Saturn, Kizaru, and Nusjuro all tagged Sanji. But I can give you Page One being easier than killer.

It's not a matter of being too fixated on parallels, it's about understanding why they exist. Just like Luffy/Roger and Zoro/Rayleigh, it's all about narrative significiance and where characters are headed. Sanji is the nex gen's Gaban, meaning he'll hold the same importance and will be at least equally powerful. You think it doesn't have to mean he'll do it thanks to CoC, but I think that's missing the whole point of CoC. CoC is trait meant to show how great you are, it's not about fighting style or any other trivial traits.


Which is exactly why Oda gave it to Rayleigh in the first place. Those aren't independent elements linked by coincidence. At the end of the day, just like Gaban with Sanji, Rayleigh exists for the sake of Zoro, who is a main character. Even if he was Luffy's teacher, that's a function that could have been fulfilled by any strong characters, Zoro's parallel having CoC wasn't a requirement for Luffy's path specifically. Rayleigh shared those similarities specifically with Zoro to hint at where Zoro was headed.

Ray and Zoro isn't a parallel that I bother with. That's is to say it exists, but in 110+ volumes we don't have any reason to believe that Ray is an "old man Zoro." Dude was probably not even second best swordsman in his crew if we count Oden

 

[Rumble]

Or, Akainu's full name is Sakazuki Akainu?

Who the fuck said this and why isn't there a thread dedicated to their permanent slander?

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Who the fuck said this and why isn't there a thread dedicated to their permanent slander?

https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/orange-justice.74703/page-4#post-6435615

 

[Rumble]

Sakazuki Akainu is the entire name, not a code name given by Kong. Jesus christ.

You are MILITARY GRADE stupid.

 

[Royal Kick]

1. We don't know what the straw hat means and 2. It doesn't necessarily have to have a meaning. This is why people who would have seen straw hat Roger or straw hat Shanks don't always make the connection. Oda was halfway into the series before he even showed Roger wearing it as by then, the connection between the two men was almost entirely filled in as we know it. So no, there was no point in referencing this in a response to me as the hat itself doesn't have anything to do with how I view Sanji and "inherited will" concepts in general.

We don't have to know what the SH means, the former PK wearing it and Luffy inheriting it reinforces their parallel. You're complicating things for no reason.

You seem to be disagreeing with what I'm saying but the reason I said it is because I'm definitely not the only one who sees it. I can essentially guarantee that by the end of the arc there will be yet another comparison between them.

Multiple people claiming something doesn't mean what they say isn't absurd and makes sense, especially when agendas are involved. OP fans constantly talk rubbish when trying to defend/downplay a character, that's nothing new. You can see it among Sanji fans, Zoro fans, Yonko fans, Admiral fans, etc.

Jinbe being stronger than Sanji, or threatening Sanji's position, is one of these typical rubbish things we always hear from the exact same fanbase and we know it's only agenda-driven, most of the time it's just trolling. Surely you hear a lot of nonsense about Zoro from Sanji fans and the fact a lot of them say those things doesn't mean it's not nonsensical. There are lunatic Sanji fans saying he's equal to Zoro, or even stronger than him, but that doesn't mean they should be taken seriously, does it?

Yep

Seriously, you're literally omitting the whole point I made and only kept the part that suits you without the context? I'm beginning to think I gave you too much credit when I said you're not rage-baiting.

Had Jinbe help at FI, lost to Vergo, defeated by Doflamingo, lost to Judge and his brothers, lost to Gifters/Black Maria, collapsed from fighting Queen. Zoro was not hit cleanly in Egghead where Saturn, Kizaru, and Nusjuro all tagged Sanji. But I can give you Page One being easier than killer.

It's easy to make a character look bad in comparison to someone else if you're gonna mix everything up or ignore the context entirely and just randomly mention every single situation he struggled in, even going as far as including one where he refused to fight because his enemy was a woman. I thought it was clear we were talking about number 2 and 3s they typically defeat in major battles, but ok, let's pretend you didn't get that.

You certainly wouldn't hear me talk about Sanji trashing S-Shark without much trouble while Zoro struggled against S-Hawk despite being helped by Kaku, because it'd be dishonest to oversimplify things like that.

When Sanji faced Vergo, Zoro defeated a significantly weaker opponent (Monet). When Sanji faced Doflamingo, Zoro again defeated a significantly weaker opponent (Pica). When Sanji "lost" to Niji (he never fought Ichiji and he literally low-diffed Yonji earlier) because he was blackmailed into not defending himself, Zoro wasn't even there and never had to deal with something like that. What does Sanji refusing to fight back even have anything to do with his strength relative to Zoro anyway?

At this point, you're mostly citing things that you feel make Sanji less cool than Zoro and conflate that with strength. It's exactly like Zoro fans mentioning Sanji crying in the rain when they compare him to Zoro, that's just toxic masculinity nonsense you normally hear in primary school, not an actual sensible point.

Collapsed from fighting Queen? Zoro literally hallucinated the Grim Reaper lmao.

Ray and Zoro isn't a parallel that I bother with. That's is to say it exists, but in 110+ volumes we don't have any reason to believe that Ray is an "old man Zoro." Dude was probably not even second best swordsman in his crew if we count Oden

He is basically an old Zoro, he just doesn't have to be a carbon copy of him. It really doesn't matter if you personally "bother with" that parallel because Oda doesn't care what you personally value in the story.

 

[Higuma]

I don’t think Sanji is using Haki to counter Kizaru. Instead, he relies on the Germa’s powers, his leg is capable of it, as Queen points out in Chapter 1023, pages 5-6.

 

[Fn Lucci]

We don't have to know what the SH means, the former PK wearing it and Luffy inheriting it reinforces their parallel. You're complicating things for no reason.

YOU are the one who brought it up 😂 Now look at this:

We don't have to know what the SH means

It doesn't necessarily have to have a meaning.

It doesn't necessarily have to have a meaning.

We don't have to know what the SH means

Why are you taking what I already said and using it to disagree?

Jinbe being stronger than Sanji, or threatening Sanji's position, is one of these typical rubbish things we always hear from the exact same fanbase and we know it's only agenda-driven, most of the time it's just trolling. Surely you hear a lot of nonsense about Zoro from Sanji fans and the fact a lot of them say those things doesn't mean it's not nonsensical. There are lunatic Sanji fans saying he's equal to Zoro, or even stronger than him, but that doesn't mean they should be taken seriously, does it?

Sanji got shredded by his fellow Shichibukai, and yes, Sanji is actually stronger than Zoro without his swords. We'll get back to that in a second.

Seriously, you're literally omitting the whole point I made and only kept the part that suits you without the context? I'm beginning to think I gave you too much credit when I said you're not rage-baiting.

If you agree with that and that was the whole point behind what I said there, that's okay with me.

You certainly wouldn't hear me talk about Sanji trashing S-Shark without much trouble while Zoro struggled against S-Hawk despite being helped by Kaku, because it'd be dishonest to oversimplify things like that.

Zoro took no damage from S-Hawk so not only is "struggle" debatable but you had Luffy simultaneously team up with Lucci for the exact same result. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but some of these examples really don't help.

When Sanji faced Vergo, Zoro defeated a significantly weaker opponent (Monet). When Sanji faced Doflamingo, Zoro again defeated a significantly weaker opponent (Pica). When Sanji "lost" to Niji (he never fought Ichiji and he literally low-diffed Yonji earlier) because he was blackmailed into not defending himself, Zoro wasn't even there and never had to deal with something like that. What does Sanji refusing to fight back even have anything to do with his strength relative to Zoro anyway?

Okay, I did bait here because I wanted to see you downplay some of this. 1. Monet took Luffy out of a fight and even if you want to argue that, your point was supposed to be Sanji having it easier so nope. 2. Zoro clashed with Fujitora who also had him pinned with DF powers. Unlike Sanji, he managed to escape without help. 3. Remember I mentioned Zoro without his swords?

Spoiler

Ichiji and Niji: their true fighting strength would have destroyed Sanji, who lost to Judge in the same way. What does Sanji getting beaten up have to do with having an easier time than Zoro anyway?

At this point, you're mostly citing things that you feel make Sanji less cool than Zoro and conflate that with strength. It's exactly like Zoro fans mentioning Sanji crying in the rain when they compare him to Zoro, that's just toxic masculinity nonsense you normally hear in primary school, not an actual sensible point.

Not sure why you're telling me what I feel. I like Sanji and think he's cool in a different way from Zoro. There's no point to this tangent.

Collapsed from fighting Queen? Zoro literally hallucinated the Grim Reaper lmao.

So you're not saying Sanji had an easier time, which is cool, but moving the goalpost to say haha, Zoro fainted. But... that wasn't from fighting King. We absolutely without a doubt know that was due to the effect from Hakai... the combined attack from two emperors. That's like Sanji fighting Jabura after a patch up from the 300 pound cannon.

He is basically an old Zoro, he just doesn't have to be a carbon copy of him. It really doesn't matter if you personally "bother with" that parallel because Oda doesn't care what you personally value in the story.

Zoro's whole life is to be the number one swordsman. He's not going to be number two even to his own captain. There's literally no point to Zoro if he gives that up. That's not the same as Luffy's goal of being the next Roger or doing things that bring a tear to the eye of those who knew Roger. Zoro's not spending his days banging side chicks, training the son of Shanks, etc. So no, dude is not an old Zoro lol

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

@Sir Yasheen @Shiroyru @ZenZu which take is the TAKE of 2025,

Gaban ain't Sanji parallel?

Or, Akainu's full name is Sakazuki Akainu?

Or, Xebec kills multiple Admirals because of the "Admiral's"?

"Admiral's" > Sakazuki Akainu > Gaban isn't a Sanji parallel
Ngl the first two are arguably the dumbest anime related takes I've heard this entire year. And that's very impressive given how bad so many of the takes on this site are

 

[Sir Yasheen]

@Sir Yasheen @Shiroyru @ZenZu which take is the TAKE of 2025,

Gaban ain't Sanji parallel?

Or, Akainu's full name is Sakazuki Akainu?

Or, Xebec kills multiple Admirals because of the "Admiral's"?

“Birds have a dominant wing which makes Zoro way more powerful and important to Luffy than Sanji.”

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

“Birds have a dominant wing which makes Zoro way more powerful and important to Luffy than Sanji.”

This another Crux Classic?

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

“Birds have a dominant wing which makes Zoro way more powerful and important to Luffy than Sanji.”

Heard this one before.

 

[Royal Kick]

YOU are the one who brought it up 😂 Now look at this:





Why are you taking what I already said and using it to disagree?

Huh? I brought up the fact the SH is one of the elements strengthening the parallel. How does the fact we don't know the exact meaning of the SH contradicts this, exactly? I'm not agreeing with you, as you're trying to dismiss that element while I'm saying that not knowing the exact meaning of the SH isn't a valid reason to dismiss that element.

Zoro took no damage from S-Hawk so not only is "struggle" debatable but you had Luffy simultaneously team up with Lucci for the exact same result. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but some of these examples really don't help.

You're just helping my point.

Okay, I did bait here because I wanted to see you downplay some of this. 1. Monet took Luffy out of a fight and even if you want to argue that, your point was supposed to be Sanji having it easier so nope.

This wasn't me trying to justify Sanji having an easier time than Zoro, as I already specified I was actually talking about their major opponents, not in absolutes. He generally has an easier time against the #3. Why would I talk about something other than major, conclusive 1v1s when that's where the argument was born from in the first place, since we were originally talking about Jinbe vs Who's Who and Sanji vs Queen?

When I addressed examples you brought up, I was just arguing against your obvious innuendo, which is Zoro performing much better than him in battle. Not the first time I have to deal with someone being excessively pedantic and taking advantage of my wording so they can come up with a reply and later accuse me of moving the goalpostss, so I get it. If you're into that kind of cheap tactic, suit yourself.

Zoro clashed with Fujitora who also had him pinned with DF powers. Unlike Sanji, he managed to escape without help.

Zoro clashed with a guy who wished him no harm and even sympathized with what the SHs were trying to do because he couldn't stand Doflamingo and what he was doing. Sanji fought an amoral psychopath willing to kill him. Apples and oranges.

Ichiji and Niji: their true fighting strength would have destroyed Sanji, who lost to Judge in the same way.

About everything is wrong in this statement, I don't even know where to begin. You're acting like Niji performed significantly better than Sanji because he's simply stronger when Sanji was tired from having to face a million enemies at once on his own, Niji came mid-fight fresh as a daisy with his siblings being there to help him. And you might wanna reread Sanji vs Judge because it was made abudantly clear Sanji lost because of his kindness, not because he was weaker than Judge. His unwillingness to hurt the Germa soldiers is what made Judge emerge victorious.

And again, I don't see what this has to do with Sanji's strength in relation to Zoro.

What does Sanji getting beaten up have to do with having an easier time than Zoro anyway?

You're the one who mentioned Sanji getting beaten up by Niji, I never mentioned this in relation to Zoro. My point is precisely that Zoro has nothing to do with this and you can't use this to draw a comparison between Zoro and Sanji.

Not sure why you're telling me what I feel. I like Sanji and think he's cool in a different way from Zoro. There's no point to this tangent.

Because it's the only way to make sense out of you using examples that have nothing to do with strength to draw a comparison when this was what we were discussing. What else am I supposed to think when you talk about him refusing to fight back against women or Niji as if this were relevant when comparing him to Zoro? So yeah, this is no different than saying Zoro is cooler than Sanji, really.

So you're not saying Sanji had an easier time, which is cool, but moving the goalpost to say haha, Zoro fainted. But... that wasn't from fighting King. We absolutely without a doubt know that was due to the effect from Hakai... the combined attack from two emperors. That's like Sanji fighting Jabura after a patch up from the 300 pound cannon.

I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm using your own logic against you because you're talking about Sanji's shape at the end of the fight as if Zoro wasn't in a worse one, which makes no sense. That's also why I ignored context like you did. The one fight - and by "fight", I obviously mean his big opponents he takes down in major battles, so don't pretend to not understand - in which Sanji arguably didn't have an easier time was against Queen. Hence I said "generally". And at the end of the day, my point is precisely that it's meaningless because it doesn't change the fact Zoro is stronger than Sanji.

Zoro's whole life is to be the number one swordsman. He's not going to be number two even to his own captain. There's literally no point to Zoro if he gives that up. That's not the same as Luffy's goal of being the next Roger or doing things that bring a tear to the eye of those who knew Roger. Zoro's not spending his days banging side chicks, training the son of Shanks, etc. So no, dude is not an old Zoro lol

Lol, so now Zoro is not #2 to Luffy but #1 like him? Zoro is weaker than Luffy and will always be, but whatever floats your boat.

Zoro doesn't have to have the exact same goal and personality than Rayleigh, who is basically an old Zoro. Key word is "basically". It makes no sense to think they have to be the exact same person as if them having a lot of similarities on purpose wasn't enough.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Huh? I brought up the fact the SH is one of the elements strengthening the parallel. How does the fact we don't know the exact meaning of the SH contradicts this, exactly? I'm not agreeing with you, as you're trying to dismiss that element while I'm saying that not knowing the exact meaning of the SH isn't a valid reason to dismiss that element.

Why do you act like I can't quote you?

It's like trying to counter a comparison between Luffy and Roger both wearing the straw hat by talking about Shanks wearing it too, or countering a comparison between Zoro and Rayleigh being drunk bozos by mentioning another drunk bozo.

You are clearly saying right here that introducing a third character with the trait doesn't negate a parallel. How does the bolded part relate to:

I'm saying that not knowing the exact meaning of the SH isn't a valid reason to dismiss that element.

Again, this goes back to me saying nothing about this example until you tried using it.

You're just helping my point.

You're not saying anything about how. Are you just trying to flip this back on me because I said this to you on something 😂

This wasn't me trying to justify Sanji having an easier time than Zoro, as I already specified I was actually talking about their major opponents, not in absolutes. He generally has an easier time against the #3. Why would I talk about something other than major, conclusive 1v1s when that's where the argument was born from in the first place, since we were originally talking about Jinbe vs Who's Who and Sanji vs Queen?

Nahhh you're just moving the goalposts, because you didn't say anything about "against a #3."

Sanji having generally an easier time than Zoro against his opponents, that doesn't threaten Zoro's #2 status

You said against his opponent. Which is why I pointed those characters out and instead on denying that it's not a "#3" situation you tried to argue about Vergo, Niji, etc.

For the record, Pearl was #3. Kuroobi is weird because he resembles a second strongest, as Hachan was so pathetic that Oda reintroduced him for empathy. I can give some credit for that because despite Zoro's injury, he did have a tougher time. Yes, Mr. 1 gave Zoro a tougher time during the fight even though the result was no different. Sanji had help vs Satori. Kaku was easier than Jabura.

Zoro clashed with a guy who wished him no harm and even sympathized with what the SHs were trying to do because he couldn't stand Doflamingo and what he was doing. Sanji fought an amoral psychopath willing to kill him. Apples and oranges.

Lol! Fujitora isn't as mean so being an admiral doesn't matter. He had a job so it was no different than when he later attacked Sabo and Luffy. If you want to say he let Zoro break free, there is not a single chance of maintaining this lie.

Spoiler

About everything is wrong in this statement, I don't even know where to begin. You're acting like Niji performed significantly better than Sanji because he's simply stronger when Sanji was tired from having to face a million enemies at once on his own, Niji came mid-fight fresh as a daisy with his siblings being there to help him. And you might wanna reread Sanji vs Judge because it was made abudantly clear Sanji lost because of his kindness, not because he was weaker than Judge. His unwillingness to hurt the Germa soldiers is what made Judge emerge victorious.

He was fresh as a daisy because Germa has a healing factor, which Sanji now has. You're just always going to make excuses for Sanji getting his ass beat without realizing that this is not the exception but the rule. Pearl/Gin, Khalifa, Gifters/Black Maria, Caesar/Vergo, Viola, Doflamingo, the whole of WCI, Saturn, etc. It's so funny that the people who want to make the Gaban comparison are not mentioning the fact that the servant girl just beat his ass by playing on his compassion. Do you not want this parallel? 🤣

Lol, so now Zoro is not #2 to Luffy but #1 like him? Zoro is weaker than Luffy and will always be, but whatever floats your boat.

The very obvious point you're trying to get around is that Luffy does NOT have a sword where Roger did, so there's no competition on Zoro's mind. This is why a parallel with Ray fails to apply the way you'd like.

Zoro doesn't have to have the exact same goal and personality than Rayleigh, who is basically an old Zoro. Key word is "basically". It makes no sense to think they have to be the exact same person as if them having a lot of similarities on purpose wasn't enough.

You're using "basically" to do a lot of heavy lifting as YOU are pointing out. So you know you're messing up and yet here you go. I'm dismissing the insistence that they really have common personalities or goals and you're like, "well basically okay? Basically." Basically you've just lost track of whatever this argument is supposed to be.

 

[Royal Kick]

Yeah, you're definitely baiting and wasting my time. My fault for falling for it, I guess

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Yeah, you're definitely baiting and wasting my time. My fault for falling for it, I guess

 

[Royal Kick]

In my defense, he's not as transparent as the other baiters.