Speculations Superior ability breeds superior ambition and absolute power corrupts absolutely

[Impact]

There is a clear narrative in the story.

The ancient kingdom's will, which is in Luffy and Blackbeard, constitutes superior ability, and this breeds superior ambition. Great men are almost always bad men.

Luffy has no intention of ruling anybody, but Blackbeard wants to rule the world.

With this said, Luffy is departing from the beliefs of the ancient kingdom. He doesn't care about conflicts in the past, and this shows he is embracing mindfulness as a trait. He lives in the moment, and that has become his philosophy.

Blackbeard, on the other hand, is embracing the ways of the ancient kingdom. He does, in fact, care about the past because he's set up to redeem Xebec by fulfilling the "ancient promise". However, if he did that, he would become absolutely corrupt.

This is why the ancient kingdom must not be rediscovered. It continues the cycle. They're too powerful, and would immediately become the strongest nation on the planet. Whoever rules it would have absolute power.

I want to point to Star Trek's Kahn Noonien Singh and the Eugenics Wars as a parallel to the fact the Pacifista are practically the same thing, Vegapunk labelled them the most powerful beings on the planet, and they're based on the Lunarians themselves. Genetically engineered "superhumans" set on world domination. Someone using the ancient kingdom's technology would be able to take that further than Vegapunk did.

From a narrative standpoint, this is all quite predictable. Oda is no genius, these are ideas that were done before.

The pseudoscience behind eugenics is discredited and immoral. It advocates for the "improvement" of the human race through selective breeding and other intervention methods. Historically, it has been used to justify widespread discrimination, forced sterilization, segregation, and even genocide against marginalized populations.

That is what the evil side of the ancient kingdom represents, and it is Blackbeard's goal to achieve. Previously, it may have even been what permitted the ancient kingdom to become so genetically advanced- they kept improving their genetics until they became highly resistant to damage and gained special features. They did this largely by manipulating lineage factor. Lineage factor is a plot device used specifically for eugenics. A great example of this is with Vinsmoke Judge and his offspring being turned into emotionless superweapons for his kingdom. This is a clear application of altering life's "blueprint" for desirable traits, and that's exactly what eugenics is about. Even the artificial devil fruits fall under this umbrella.

Take it from a Star Trek fan, this is a form of Eugenics Wars just waiting to be developed. If there were no devil fruits, this would be very boring because we wouldn't have any crazy abilities. It would just be hyper intelligent guys who have superior strength vs normal humans.

It's not that complicated, guys. You're just being distracted from the underlying theme with fancy tricks from devil fruits and Haki powers.

I know all Oda's parlor tricks and I'm not impressed.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

That is what the evil side of the ancient kingdom represents

You think the ancient kingdom was evil? Yet Joyboy fought on the side of the ancient kingdom?

you actually think Oda would ever write Joyboy as evil?

 

[Impact]

You think the ancient kingdom was evil? Yet Joyboy fought on the side of the ancient kingdom?

you actually think Oda would ever write Joyboy as evil?

This is a matter of reading comprehension.
- The ancient kingdom had dichotomous philosophies. One of them represents a greater evil and the other one represents a greater good. Where Joyboy is involved, he fought on behalf of the good aspects of the ancient kingdom. His likely rival was Davy Jones, who represents the evil aspects of the ancient kingdom. Emeth mentioned he couldn't make Joyboy "King". If this refers to the king of the ancient kingdom, then the actual king may have been Davy instead (in fact, this is pretty much implied by Xebec stating he was king of the world before).

If Oda revealed much more about this, then he may as well be spoon-feeding you the story. Yes, I understand perfectly well that most people won't accept anything as a fact until the story spells it out for them in plain language, but that's pretty lazy thinking. These guys are going to be going "It's too soon to tell if it's true or not" until the final chapters because they're always waiting for clear evidence, and are unwilling to develop critical theory.

___

To spoon-feed information means to give someone so much detailed help or facts that they don't need to think, question, or figure things out for themselves, often used disapprovingly to suggest hindering independent thought or making learning too easy. It's like feeding a baby with a spoon, providing every piece of data without requiring effort or critical analysis.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

The ancient kingdom had dichotomous philosophies.

So you’re saying there was a Civil war in the ancient kingdom?

 

[Impact]

So you’re saying there was a Civil war in the ancient kingdom?

Yes. In fact, I am suggesting that war has never truly ended. I'm not even sure if Imu was entirely responsible for the rise in sea levels during the Void Century. That may have actually been part of this civil war.

When Imu used the ancient weapon on the Lulusia Kingdom, it caused the sea level to rise by one meter (about 3.3 feet) globally, but during the ancient Void Century, repeated use of similar weapons (like Uranus) raised the entire Blue Sea by a massive 200 meters, submerging former continents.

That indicates several ancient weapons may have been active and contributing to that massive rise in sea level. It's just being attributed to Imu because he capitalized on it for a plan of his own. It's possible he only stole a defunct ancient weapon and was never able to make it work properly until recently.

Never thought about that, did you? Perhaps Imu isn't responsible for sinking all of those landmasses himself.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

but during the ancient Void Century, repeated use of similar weapons (like Uranus) raised the entire Blue Sea by a massive 200 meters, submerging former continents.

Isn’t it Imu who did this as well? And Imu wasn’t part of the ancient kingdom

 

[Impact]

Isn’t it Imu who did this as well? And Imu wasn’t part of the ancient kingdom

Did anybody ever say Imu did that? I don't recall anybody saying Imu was responsible for the entire 200m rise in sea level during the Void Century. He might only be responsible for a portion of it.

People's belief that Imu was responsible for all of that may be misguided. In fact, with that kind of reasoning, you would have to assume nobody else aside from Imu ever used an ancient weapon, and I find that very unlikely. I'm sure the people who created them had used them.

I never said Imu was part of the ancient kingdom, I said it's possible he stole a defunct ancient weapon.

LOL here comes the airplane ✈️ wooshhh eat your baby food 🥄 just eat it and don't make me repeat it 🎶

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

you would have to assume nobody else aside from Imu ever used an ancient weapon, and I find that very unlikely.

We are told that the ancient weapons weren’t originally used as weapons

When Neptune is talking about Poseidon he says they probably had different uses in the past

So the ancient kingdom had these 3 ancient DEVICES that they used for certain things we don’t know yet, and then Imu hijacked one and used it as a weapon. That’s my understanding

Also you aren’t factoring in Domi reversi. The introduction of mind control which only Imu possess introduces the idea that Imu can hijack the actions of anyone and make people believe anything he wants. Are you sure no Domi reversi was used at anytime in the past on anyone important?

 

[Impact]

We are told that the ancient weapons weren’t originally used as weapons

When Neptune is talking about Poseidon he says they probably had different uses in the past

So the ancient kingdom had these 3 ancient DEVICES that they used for certain things we don’t know yet, and then Imu hijacked one and used it as a weapon. That’s my understanding

Also you aren’t factoring in Domi reversi. The introduction of mind control which only Imu possess introduces the idea that Imu can hijack the actions of anyone and make people believe anything he wants. Are you sure no Domi reversi was used at anytime in the past on anyone important?

Leaving the domi reversi hypothetical aside..

I argue they were defense systems originally, and they only appear to be weapons systems based off of the fear they generated and the fact Imu has apparently used one as a weapons system.

This largely has to do with the purpose and intent of them. They can be classified as one or the other depending on their usage, but they can function in either mode.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Leaving the domi reversi hypothetical aside..

I argue they were defense systems originally, and they only appear to be weapons systems based off of the fear they generated and the fact Imu has apparently used one as a weapons system.

This largely has to do with the purpose and intent of them. They can be classified as one or the other depending on their usage, but they can function in either mode.

I’m almost 100% sure Domi reversi will factor into this

It’s Oda’s pattern

Doffy controls Riku’s body to make him appear however Doffy wants

Similarly the Clone fruit is used in both Alabasta and Wano to manipulate the perception of both Cobra and Sukiyaki

Harald is getting mind controlled too right now. Imu even mind controlled the Descendants of Davy jones on God valley from rocks to the rest of the Davy clan

the pattern of the good king’s intentions being subverted and manipulated by the usurper are a staple

Imu’s primary evil is deception, he will most likely use it in the ancient kingdom flashback too

 

[Impact]

I’m almost 100% sure Domi reversi will factor into this

It’s Oda’s pattern

Doffy controls Riku’s body to make him appear however Doffy wants

Similarly the Clone fruit is used in both Alabasta and Wano to manipulate the perception of both Cobra and Sukiyaki

Harald is getting mind controlled too right now. Imu even mind controlled the Descendants of Davy jones on God valley from rocks to the rest of the Davy clan

the pattern of the good king’s intentions being subverted and manipulated by the usurper are a staple

Imu’s primary evil is deception, he will most likely use it in the ancient kingdom flashback too

Oh, I'm sure it will have some role to play during the Void Century, I'm just not prepared to discuss characters who haven't been introduced yet and who people may not believe could actually exist. It muddy's the post. There is a time and a place to discuss that, I'm not sure it's here and now. Honestly, I would love to discuss things like ancient Haki masters and ancient Haki abilities, but I don't want to go there yet. It's a whole other can of worms.

So far, I have discussed culture, philosophy, technology, and related subjects. I understand you want to be a modern major general and cover information animal, vegetable, and mineral, but I'm going to stick to the more scientific elements here rather than the mysticism stuff if that makes sense.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Oh, I'm sure it will have some role to play during the Void Century, I'm just not prepared to discuss characters who haven't been introduced yet and who people may not believe could actually exist. It muddy's the post. There is a time and a place to discuss that, I'm not sure it's here and now.

Talking about the nature of the ancient kingdom without somehow factoring in the existence and actions of Imu, the guy who somehow mobilized 20 kingdoms to destroy the ancient kingdom is a tall order

Anyway as long as Joyboy fought for the ancient kingdom Oda will just treat him like Luffy, an unambiguously good guy fighting for the correct cause and side

 

[Impact]

Talking about the nature of the ancient kingdom without somehow factoring in the existence and actions of Imu, the guy who somehow mobilized 20 kingdoms to destroy the ancient kingdom is a tall order

Anyway as long as Joyboy fought for the ancient kingdom Oda will just treat him like Luffy, an unambiguously good guy fighting for the correct cause and side

You want to discuss what Imu's involvement was?

I'll give you my thoughts on this, but I'll need a minute to collect my thoughts. One thing I'll say right now, before I edit this and add more information, is that Imu rallied the human kingdoms against the ancient kingdom, and it's possible the ancient kingdom had non-human allies. Actually, I think that's pretty much the gist of it right there. You could come up with some interesting ideas with that information alone.

Further information would imply things like the non-human kingdoms called their leaders Gods. I don't really want to say more than that, but I want to suggest there was 3 major ones that correspond directly to the 3 ancient weapons. Poseidon would be one of them.

Now, you might understand why I didn't want to bring this up. I'm suggesting Poseidon, Uranus, and Pluton actually existed as non-humans, and that they were the leaders of specific nations. The ancient weapons carry their names specifically because they use the same abilities as the original Gods did, but they take different forms in the current era.

The entire reason why Imu and the Great Alliance, attacked the ancient kingdom may be because Joyboy started adventuring as the first pirate, and this created the opportunity for him to meet these non-human kingdoms. When he did, he used their mastery of unique Haki types to create defense systems (the ancient weapons) for them, and in doing so, he also gained the Voice of All Things. The "ancient weapons" are actually national treasures of the non-human kingdoms, and the One Piece is the national treasure of the ancient kingdom itself. They were unable to create the One Piece until they had the Voice of All Things which required them to learn things from the non-human kingdoms.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

You want to discuss what Imu's involvement was?

I'll give you my thoughts on this, but I'll need a minute to collect my thoughts. One thing I'll say right now, before I edit this and add more information, is that Imu rallied the human kingdoms against the ancient kingdom, and it's possible the ancient kingdom had non-human allies. Actually, I think that's pretty much the gist of it right there. You could come up with some interesting ideas with that information alone.

Further information would imply things like the non-human kingdoms called their leaders Gods. I don't really want to say more than that, but I want to suggest there was 3 major ones that correspond directly to the 3 ancient weapons. Poseidon would be one of them.

Now, you might understand why I didn't want to bring this up. I'm suggesting Poseidon, Uranus, and Pluton actually existed as non-humans, and that they were the leaders of specific nations. The ancient weapons carry their names specifically because they use the same abilities as the original Gods did, but they take different forms in the current era.

Okay, none of this says the ancient kingdom was anything it unambiguously the good guys and Imu was anything but unambiguously evil

the issue here is that Joyboy is most likely going to be a Luffy type good guy

for your theories about the supposed moral ambiguity of the ancient kingdom, you have address how explicitly completely evil Imu is and how Joyboy is mostly treated as completely Good

 

[Impact]

Okay, none of this says the ancient kingdom was anything it unambiguously the good guys and Imu was anything but unambiguously evil

the issue here is that Joyboy is most likely going to be a Luffy type good guy

for your theories about the supposed moral ambiguity of the ancient kingdom, you have address how explicitly completely evil Imu is and how Joyboy is mostly treated as completely Good

I don't actually blame Imu for attacking the ancient kingdom. They represented a human kingdom that got out of control and would eventually become too powerful to fight against. I believe he used the other human kingdoms' insecurities, like rampant disease, and famine to encourage them to attack the ancient kingdom who had a policy of not interfering with less developed kingdoms than their own.

That is to say, the ancient kingdom could've provided cures for diseases and provided food to human kingdoms in desperate need of them, but they didn't, and that's probably one of the major reasons why the great alliance attacked. They wanted to steal the technology from the ancient kingdom because they were withholding it.

Does the ancient kingdom refusing to help millions of people make them evil? It really depends on how you look at it. If they did give people technology, there is a good chance they would abuse it. For example, advanced medical science can be used to cure diseases, but it can also be used for biological warfare. Could they really trust someone with less developed sensibilities to use it for the correct reason?

What Imu feared was an absolute power coming into existence that would throw off any power balance the human kingdoms had developed or at least that is likely to be the argument he used to rally the great alliance.

 

[Vanlax]

It's not that complicated, guys. You're just being distracted from the underlying theme with fancy tricks from devil fruits and Haki powers.

I know all Oda's parlor tricks and I'm not impressed.

Congrats for having the superior power of seeing the patterns.

Now you are corrupted as well.

Kidding aside, thank you for your points. You are most likely correct.

 

[Impact]

Congrats for having the superior power of seeing the patterns.

Now you are corrupted as well.

Kidding aside, thank you for your points. You are most likely correct.

Don't tell me you're full

 

[Vanlax]

Don't tell me you're full

You are more corrupted than I initially thought.

 

[Loki D. Terror]

Oda don't write complex grey nations like that. The ancient Kingdom are going to be good guys who would be manipulated by imu.

 

[Impact]

Oda don't write complex grey nations like that. The ancient Kingdom are going to be good guys who would be manipulated by imu.

If this sort of thing were true, Vegapunk wouldn't have made an entire point about how he couldn't take a moral high ground in the face of great ideals. Imu's ideals aren't great, it was the ancient kingdom's ideals in question there.