Controversial General Political Discussion

[Zenos7]

Except maybe molesting children. Which falls flat when you consider one of their prophets married a 6 year old and consummated their marriage at 9

and without using secondary sources outside of the quran it allows sexual intercourse with prebubescent children anyway
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Obviously don't generalise. Most religious people (like 99.99%) aren't aware of it and are mostly decent humans. But the foundings of their religion is very fucked by today's standards. Obviously the terrorists take it to the extremes but it's not like they're making something out of nothing. They're simply taking messed up teachings and adding their own extremism to it

99% is very optimistic lol.

especially if you consider that a third of college educated muslims in great britain think violence is justified to defend their religion (i have the study saved up somewhere, i can try to find it if you want).
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Obviously don't generalise.

but yeah this is of course true, regardless of how many adherents could be considered extremists, we should still be careful with our judgement and assess it on an individual level. i personally for example have never encountered a muslim that supports the death penalty for apostates or homosexuals, even if that is an integral part of their religion.

 

[Logiko]

or we can criticize both, because islam at face value is still problematic in this context, regardless of patriarchal systems.

its a religion made by men for men to subjugate women among other groups of people.

You will notice overtime that there are fight that you should not fight in politics. Specifically because fighting these fight can help our political enemies.

When fascism and imperialism are at the door, we must stay silent and prepare with care.

Religion is but a symptom. Religion is not the problem, patriarchy is, imperialism is, reactionarism is. And of course, capitalism is.
Targeting religion in the context of fundamentalism, is like creating wanted poster for guns instead of looking that the people who use them and the system that create them while being an activist in a pro gun faction.

Muslim are targeted in the west, and the far right uses Iran as fuel to push imperialist interests in the region & Islamophobic politics and fascism in europe.

If we don't focus and target the right problems instead of helping reactionary wins, we will do not good.

 

[Zenos7]

You will notice overtime that there are fight that you should not fight in politics. Specifically because fighting these fight can help our political enemies.

When fascism and imperialism are at the door, we must stay silent and prepare with care.

Religion is but a symptom. Religion is not the problem, patriarchy is, imperialism is, reactionarism is. And of course, capitalism is.
Targeting religion in the context of fundamentalism, is like creating wanted poster for guns instead of looking that the people who use them and the system that create them while being an activist in a pro gun faction.

Muslim are targeted in the west, and the far right uses Iran as fuel to push imperialist interests in the region & Islamophobic politics and fascism in europe.

If we don't focus and target the right problems instead of helping reactionary wins, we will do not good.

islam without patriarchy wouldnt be islam though.

so even if its but a symptom, its deeply intertwined, and backpedalling criticism of problematic authoritarian patriarchal ideologies is in my view not doing good either, regardless of why you are doing it.

but i see where you are coming from and i agree to an extent

 

[Logiko]

islam without patriarchy wouldnt be islam though.

So would be many things. Islam is not particular. It's just a religion, it's not an institution or a system of domination in itself.

Btw : This, and the systemic oppression faced by muslim is one of the main mindset change that made me realize that I was going the wrong way by targeting the critic of islam as an atheist back in the days.

so even if its but a symptom, its deeply intertwined, and backpedalling criticism of problematic authoritarian patriarchal ideologies is in my view not doing good either, regardless of why you are doing it.

I wouldn't call it backpedaling, more like strategic targeting. But I guess you get my point.

If what we want to criticize has more chances to help fascism and imperialism than it has to help the situation, the best is to keep silence and wait for the real forces of revolution to speak about the subject. In this case, I'm waiting, for exemple, the communist and marxist organization of Iran who will have more legitimacy to speak about the situation.

But I predict that they are F either way.

 

[NikaInParis]

I also love acquiring knowledge about foreign concepts via the tried and true way of "I heard from a guy/I saw it once on the web". And then painting that concept as "them".

 

[GalaxyLevelShanks]

See... that's the type of rethoric we should try to avoid.

What rhetoric? It's not my fault their books say such heinous stuff. Lol.

Anyways, I said this

Obviously don't generalise. Most religious people (like 99.99%) aren't aware of it and are mostly decent humans. But the foundings of their religion is very fucked by today's standards. Obviously the terrorists take it to the extremes but it's not like they're making something out of nothing. They're simply taking messed up teachings and adding their own extremism to it

Islam being fucked up doesn't excuse Islamophobia since most Muslims aren't even aware of such stuff and are great humans.

especially if you consider that a third of college educated muslims in great britain think violence is justified to defend their religion (i have the study saved up somewhere, i can try to find it if you want).

I was referring moreso to all religions in general. I have lived in a secular country for majority of my life and there's a ton of Muslims here and they all happen to be brilliant people. Some of my closest friends are Muslim. But after all, my country is secular and very developed so it may skew my views on what the avg Muslim things since everyone is peaceful here.

That 1/3rd of muslim students believing in it is crazy though. And really scary. Please provide the study if you have the time because that's kinda a tough figure to wrap my brain around lol
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In this case, I'm waiting, for exemple, the communist and marxist organization of Iran who will have more legitimacy to speak about the situation.

I hope you realize there's more than enough material online to do your own research and formulate your own opinion than waiting on a minor communist party in another country to give their opinion on things so you know which side to take. Don't engage in campism. Doing your research and forming opinions on other countries isn't imperialist behaviour.

 

[Logiko]

I hope you realize there's more than enough material online to do your own research and formulate your own opinion than waiting on a minor communist party in another country to give their opinion on things so you know which side to take. Don't engage in campism. Doing your research and forming opinions on other countries isn't imperialist behaviour.

I'm sorry, but that's not really how it works. And that's not what campism is in this case. We have to be sure to listen to the voice who are fighting, it's not an option. It's an anti-imperialist imperative.

I made my opinion based on the current paradigm, now I'm waiting for the people who live the situation and fight it, to speak. I'm noone to impose my vision of their fight on them.

For the rest, we need to be careful, especially concerning what can help the reactionnary side and the imperialist agenda.

But I'm talking for me as a leftist. You do what you want of course.

 

[Midnight Delight]

the communist and marxist organization of Iran who will have more legitimacy to speak about the situation.

They kind of Became pretty Corrupt after Mossy, if you know who Mossy is

 

[Zenos7]

What rhetoric? It's not my fault their books say such heinous stuff. Lol.

Anyways, I said this


Islam being fucked up doesn't excuse Islamophobia since most Muslims aren't even aware of such stuff and are great humans.


I was referring moreso to all religions in general. I have lived in a secular country for majority of my life and there's a ton of Muslims here and they all happen to be brilliant people. Some of my closest friends are Muslim. But after all, my country is secular and very developed so it may skew my views on what the avg Muslim things since everyone is peaceful here.

That 1/3rd of muslim students believing in it is crazy though. And really scary. Please provide the study if you have the time because that's kinda a tough figure to wrap my brain around lol
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I hope you realize there's more than enough material online to do your own research and formulate your own opinion than waiting on a minor communist party in another country to give their opinion on things so you know which side to take. Don't engage in campism. Doing your research and forming opinions on other countries isn't imperialist behaviour.

Survey Report

 

[Mathias]

Massacres against protestors are happening in Iran but the western hemisphere is focused on Greenland

 

[Midnight Delight]

Massacres against protestors are happening in Iran but the western hemisphere is focused on Greenland

I mean
The implications of NATO being dead is far worse

ESPECIALLY with Putin still around

 

[GalaxyLevelShanks]

I'm sorry, but that's not really how it works. And that's not what campism is in this case. We have to be sure to listen to the voice who are fighting, it's not an option. It's an anti-imperialist imperative.

I made my opinion based on the current paradigm, now I'm waiting for the people who live the situation and fight it, to speak. I'm noone to impose my vision of their fight on them.

For the rest, we need to be careful, especially concerning what can help the reactionnary side and the imperialist agenda.

But I'm talking for me as a leftist. You do what you want of course.

No this is literally campism. Treating your parties as a do-no-wrong authority. Form your own opinion. And I think there's more than enough Iranians who've given their view on the situation... as can be seen by the millions protesting on the streets. A party giving their opinion doesn't make it more worth than the clear general sentiment in the country right now which is very clearly anti-Ayatollah.

Imperialist agenda... like come on bro. This isn't sports. These are real human lives. Are we simply gonna ignore everything the Iranian government makes its citizens suffer simply because it happens to be "anti-imperialist" (more like anti-Western really)?

Not everyone in politics is on one side. 99% of parties have both good and bad policies. It's about weighing what is less evil. Sure, if the current regime falls, the newer government might be more pro-Israel (which is wrong) but...

If the political shift:
- Reduces executions
- Ends morality-police violence
- Improves women’s and LGBTQ+ rights
- Stabilizes the economy
- Stops torturing dissidents

Then yes, that is morally preferable, even if that party isn’t perfectly aligned on Israel and America. Pretending otherwise is being dismissive about the lives of millions of Iranians and putting your Western hatred over it.

You're pretty much saying "Your freedom matters less than my geopolitical narrative."

And worst part is, you're not even fighting imperialism then, you're simply fighting another political camp. Because this isn't anti-imperialism, leftism and is definitely NOT solidarity with the Iranian people. It’s aesthetic radicalism where hating the West matters more than actual human lives.

You're a good person Logiko. Don't fall into campism like these far right retards do. Do your own research and come to your own conclusion. And honestly, there's only one right conclusion here which is support of the protestors.

 

[Ravagerblade]

Massacres against protestors are happening in Iran but the western hemisphere is focused on Greenland

Crying about the USA, Where is the EU? Doing absolutely nothing as usual.
And if they do, do something, it ain't worth a damn.
Gd EU fucking living in a flower garden.

 

[Rej]

I mean
The implications of NATO being dead is far worse

ESPECIALLY with Putin still around

Russia is dead too tho.
Russia is nothing else than a zombie going berserk rn.

Massacres against protestors are happening in Iran but the western hemisphere is focused on Greenland

Because Iran is a failed state. It's something that can be taken down later tbh.

 

[Logiko]

They kind of Became pretty Corrupt after Mossy, if you know who Mossy is

I'm not knowledgable enough for that no but I think I can't trust Marxist with this.

No this is literally campism. Treating your parties as a do-no-wrong authority.

Yes. But we are not talking about that here. Here the question is not if the Marxist did wrong or not, the question is who I can trust in Iran to deliver me a coherent, anti-imperialist and grounded knowledge about what is being done, the line and the movement.

And the one I can trust are on the ground or at the very least in the diasporas. Not imperialist, not random people on the web, those who live the situation.

And I think there's more than enough Iranians who've given their view on the situation... as can be seen by the millions protesting on the streets. A party giving their opinion doesn't make it more worth than the clear general sentiment in the country right now which is very clearly anti-Ayatollah.

You seems to have mistaken my rhetoric. I'm not waiting to have a judgment on the situation, I'm waiting for the right people to speak in order to follow THEIR line and share THEIR voice. as they are the one who can act or will act. And yeah, I'm waiting for the anti-imperialist side to talk, that logical.

Imperialist agenda... like come on bro. This isn't sports. These are real human lives. Are we simply gonna ignore everything the Iranian government makes its citizens suffer simply because it happens to be "anti-imperialist" (more like anti-Western really)?

Yeah, precisely. There are human lives at stake, and I consider that pushing for the son of an old US friendly dictator in power is currently a very imminent problem.


The danger is much bigger than Iran here, it's also about what this regime change could create geopolitically in the region, especially for Palestinians.

If the people of Iran want to have a regime change, we should accept even this guy, it's up to them to decide (and I'm completely with them on the necessity to get rid of their current oppressor), but not the US, not europe, not israel, not us. THEM. That's why, without reliable informations, I'm waiting for the revolutionary voices. The anti-imperialist and progressive ones.

 

[Roo]

Massacres against protestors are happening in Iran but the western hemisphere is focused on Greenland

Yeah I read about 10,000 dead

people may not like it, but this is probably around the time a foreign intervention is justified
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I still doubt he falls without external intervention. Though the last 2 days had more intense protest turnout, tonight was mild and counterprotests in favor of the regime have been bigger. And it seems like they neutralized most Kurdish armed elements with the help of Turkish intelligence agencies. They also used a lot of brute force to suppress the protests in other areas.

But if Khamenei does get killed, I expect a lot of unrest across Iran and the Middle East. Today one of the prominent clerics in Iran warned they would declare a jihad and if enough shia mobilize across the region things will get heated. Moreover, he still has support with about a third of the population including the army and IRGC. Imagine taking down the pope, it'll be something like that for the shia who support him.


Lurs are two groups afaik, one speaks closer to Persian while the others speak closer to Kurdish. They are about equal in number in Luristan. Its probably the Kurdish half they're counting as Kurds.

I don’t think people care about the pope that much lol. Isn’t like 30% of Europe atheist?

 

[Midnight Delight]

I'm not knowledgable enough for that no but I think I can't trust Marxist with this.

Mossadeq?
The Iranian socialist who the CIA overthrew

 

[Logiko]

Mossadeq?
The Iranian socialist who the CIA overthrew

Thx. No I didn't know.

 

[Roo]

No this is literally campism. Treating your parties as a do-no-wrong authority. Form your own opinion. And I think there's more than enough Iranians who've given their view on the situation... as can be seen by the millions protesting on the streets. A party giving their opinion doesn't make it more worth than the clear general sentiment in the country right now which is very clearly anti-Ayatollah.

Imperialist agenda... like come on bro. This isn't sports. These are real human lives. Are we simply gonna ignore everything the Iranian government makes its citizens suffer simply because it happens to be "anti-imperialist" (more like anti-Western really)?

Not everyone in politics is on one side. 99% of parties have both good and bad policies. It's about weighing what is less evil. Sure, if the current regime falls, the newer government might be more pro-Israel (which is wrong) but...

If the political shift:
- Reduces executions
- Ends morality-police violence
- Improves women’s and LGBTQ+ rights
- Stabilizes the economy
- Stops torturing dissidents

Then yes, that is morally preferable, even if that party isn’t perfectly aligned on Israel and America. Pretending otherwise is being dismissive about the lives of millions of Iranians and putting your Western hatred over it.

You're pretty much saying "Your freedom matters less than my geopolitical narrative."

And worst part is, you're not even fighting imperialism then, you're simply fighting another political camp. Because this isn't anti-imperialism, leftism and is definitely NOT solidarity with the Iranian people. It’s aesthetic radicalism where hating the West matters more than actual human lives.

You're a good person Logiko. Don't fall into campism like these far right retards do. Do your own research and come to your own conclusion. And honestly, there's only one right conclusion here which is support of the protestors.

Anti west brainrot. In logiko’s world an intervention during the Bosnian genocide is bad because it was lead by NATO/U.S forces

 

[Midnight Delight]

>LGBTQ+ rights
Legit no one in Iran cares about that