General & Others Whose Death was saddest Ace or Neji?

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Only because we are seeing it through the One Piece lens. If this were a hollywood film you wouldn't be saying this, cause it's par for the course.

The issue is One Piece characters are so comically bad when they are bad, that whenever a character shows any nuance he is automatically tossed into the good guy bucket. That's also because Oda rarely shows the consequences of their actions, every sin is brushed off. The same doesn't apply in serious series/films.

Admirals are really the only characters that even feel real in this manga.

I'm not saying it isn't at least partially Oda's fault, but I'm just saying it's not 100% the fault of casual readers if they start to interpret Kizaru as a good guy because of it. Oda does things in a way that will sometimes discourage people to read between lines and think "Well, sure, he despises the fact that he has to kill one of his best friends, but he's still a horrible person that actively defends the CDs as much as possible, plus we see other villains like Doflamingo and Lucci care for their friends, so this alone can't make Kizaru a good person".
Then again part of it might be due to the demographic of OP. It is aimed towards children and teens, after all.

Edit: Okay, he doesn't defend the CDs "as much as possible", given that he technically defied Saturn's orders multiple times throughout Egghead, but he does still defend them a lot.

 

[ZenZu]

I'm not saying it isn't at least partially Oda's fault, but I'm just saying it's not 100% the fault of casual readers if they start to interpret Kizaru as a good guy because of it. Oda does things in a way that will sometimes discourage people to read between lines and think "Well, sure, he despises the fact that he has to kill one of his best friends, but he's still a horrible person that actively defends the CDs as much as possible, plus we see other villains like Doflamingo and Lucci care for their friends, so this alone can't make Kizaru a good person".
Then again part of it might be due to the demographic of OP. It is aimed towards children and teens, after all.

Man I was just so fucking relieved when Lucci skewered Stussy. My biggest fear on Egghead was Oda turning Lucci into some corny tsundere Strawhat frenemy. It told me Oda is not 100% fried.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Man I was just so fucking relieved when Lucci skewered Stussy. My biggest fear on Egghead was Oda turning Lucci into some corny tsundere Strawhat frenemy. It told me Oda is not 100% fried.

Ehhh
I think him saying he killed her or that she died in battle (I forget which one it is, I've seen multiple translations and I don't feel like reading the chapter again) was him lying just to save her. So that, plus him begging Mars to save Kaku and teaming up with Luffy and Zoro to fight the Seraphim, definitely makes him look a little softer, yet I don't think he's any worse for it. He still acts like a complete psychopath most of the time, even if he's lost some of the aura he had in Enies Lobby, so I don't mind his Egghead characterization that much.
Again, we've seen multiple villains genuinely care for their subordinates, this is no surprise to me

 

[ZenZu]

Ehhh
I think him saying he killed her or that she died in battle (I forget which one it is, I've seen multiple translations and I don't feel like reading the chapter again) was him lying just to save her. So that, plus him begging Mars to save Kaku and teaming up with Luffy and Zoro to fight the Seraphim, definitely makes him look a little softer, yet I don't think he's any worse for it. He still acts like a complete psychopath most of the time, even if he's lost some of the aura he had in Enies Lobby.

That was another scene I was relieved about. When Kaku told Stussy to leave the premise because if she ran into Lucci again he would kill her. Kaku was right on the money, live and let live but if she tried pushing her luck she was dead meat, Lucci wasn't gonna tolerate her more than he already did. I was actually scared they would take Stussy back. Once again Oda doubling down and showing me he had some life in him.

 

[ZenZu]

I can't lie this was actually cinema. Kaku fighting the urge to call her a friend, but giving her the cold shoulder knowing she had crossed a line and Lucci would absolutely not forgive her. Some fire writing by Oda here 🔥

 

[ZenZu]

I'm not sure about it, it's not out of character for him to kill her, but think about how she and Kaku interacted before that.
Iirc she helped Kaku and tried to make amends with him, and Kaku just told her to leave before anything bad happens to her. Given that, I'm not really inclined to believe she was just put down by Lucci afterwards, since Kaku seems to like her enough to not let that happen.
Totally possible Kaku managed to persuade him to spare her, or maybe Lucci killed her regardless, either is fine with me, but I think the former is more likely as they have a deep enough bond that Lucci would probably find it in his heart to let her go on Kaku's request. Kaku was one of the agents that helped save him from dying after Enies Lobby, after all.

They never crossed paths...I think you missed the point of the scene. Kaku made sure she left before Lucci was part of the picture. He was protecting her in a way.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

They never crossed paths...I think you missed the point of the scene. Kaku made sure she left before Lucci was part of the picture. He was protecting her in a way.

i deleted that because i misinterpreted your comment as claiming that lucci might have killed her
but yes you're correct, kaku was saving her from lucci's wrath there

 

[soupongo]

Haku was OG potential man, always if, never did

Bro he saved Zabuza from getting killed by kakashi twice in a arc that´s like...15 chapters?

 

[Fleet D. Admiral]

Neji

He didn't deserve to die

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

the weird thing about ace is
his death is portrayed as an extremely sad event that we're meant to care a great deal about
but we don't see much of ace himself up until marineford, anyway, so there's not much time to get properly attached to him and really feel the full weight of his death

 

[soupongo]

I'm conflicted because how Kizaru is presented to the average reader. And I'm lowkey worried even Oda will forget what his own creation is, he tends to do that when he gets lost in making a point.

Kizaru is who he is. He is an extremely cold blooded individual, he feels very little remorse and even seems to toy with people. I've explained it before but if you watch any Mafia flick, even the worst of those guys would still break down when it comes to their loved ones. It's pure hypocrisy, but that's the nuance in it. I actually thought his character arc was done well and it took a lot for him to finally have an outburst, if Akainu his oldest comrade didn't question his integrity after what he put himself through he still would have kept it bottled up.

My issue is people are now trying to erase who Kizaru is at his core and make him out to be some good guy tragic character. That's a bit on Oda for how he presents things, and a bit on the readers for going from one extreme to the other.

Great post, this is why I think Kizaru will kind of end up being killed by the Blackbeard pirates to send off his character. I don´t think he can really be written as a Luffy ally from now, he just isn´t that guy to get a full redemption arc, I don´t think. And we know that Luffy getting fed is the biggest thing for him, so he would definitely make it a thing if they met again. Also, we know that Vegapunk and Kuma are getting fake out death´d, and it would be incredibly awkward to have Kizaru EOS hanging out with them again. He did betray them ultimately. Even in OP, I don´t think you can get back after that
(for reference, Oda does redeem some characters, but it´s usually ones who are weak tbh. Ulti can get redeemed, but not King or Queen. It´s kind of a weird moral standard on Oda´s part, but I think it´s just about how serious he takes a character)

 

[ZenZu]

the weird thing about ace is
his death is portrayed as an extremely sad event that we're meant to care a great deal about
but we don't see much of ace himself up until marineford, anyway, so there's not much time to get properly attached to him and really feel the full weight of his death

Ace's death hits way way harder on a rewatch. He's a great character with a solid theme which was wrapped up quite well.

 

[ZenZu]

Great post, this is why I think Kizaru will kind of end up being killed by the Blackbeard pirates to send off his character. I don´t think he can really be written as a Luffy ally from now, he just isn´t that guy to get a full redemption arc, I don´t think. And we know that Luffy getting fed is the biggest thing for him, so he would definitely make it a thing if they met again. Also, we know that Vegapunk and Kuma are getting fake out death´d, and it would be incredibly awkward to have Kizaru EOS hanging out with them again. He did betray them ultimately. Even in OP, I don´t think you can get back after that
(for reference, Oda does redeem some characters, but it´s usually ones who are weak tbh. Ulti can get redeemed, but not King or Queen. It´s kind of a weird moral standard on Oda´s part, but I think it´s just about how serious he takes a character)

This or he soft quits. We do need to see a shift in his character, cause this event was too traumatic for him to just go back to business as usual without some mental drawbacks.

 

[soupongo]

It ended up boosting his aura anyways

I think Zabuza especially pulls it off because he was the first TNJ victim. It´s pretty endearing to see play out in the OG with the added shock value, but by the time you reach Obito and Pain, it becomes unbelievably cringe, lmao.

 

[soupongo]

since i activly reading from week to week around enies lobby with lucci vs luffy so i dont give a fuck about that tbh

Are you closer in age to Waban than Sanji? You´ve been reading One Piece for 20 years?

 

[kekaro]

Are you closer in age to Waban than Sanji? You´ve been reading One Piece for 20 years?

Yeah but im i just started reading OP during the intended age demographic when i was 9-10.

I "watched" the chapters that came out till than on youtube in slideshows with ost from the anime, good shit, if anyone remembers that

 

[soupongo]

Yeah but im i just started reading OP during the intended age demographic when i was 9-10.

I "watched" the chapters that came out till than on youtube in slideshows with ost from the anime, good shit, if anyone remembers that

Lmao. I don´t think I remember that, but I did remember trying to watch episodes on youtube, that would end up being like 10 parts.

How long have you been following the community? Do you remember the initial reactions to the introduction of Kizaru/Sakazuki?

 

[kekaro]

Lmao. I don´t think I remember that, but I did remember trying to watch episodes on youtube, that would end up being like 10 parts.

How long have you been following the community? Do you remember the initial reactions to the introduction of Kizaru/Sakazuki?

i think that was around when youtube was brand new around 2006? Must have been around that time when the crew made it to enies lobby happening is where i caught up
I think i started to actively read internet discussion around 2007-2008 in neogaf and the fanverse (also some german boards later went to uni and emigrate there)

I dont remember exactly (feeling like zenzu) at the exact chapter reaction but i dug up some fanverse thread for you around that time:
https://www.fanverse.org/threads/chapter-507-predictions-thread.394299/page-10
https://www.fanverse.org/threads/kizaru-love-him-or-hate-him.399387/

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Ace's death hits way way harder on a rewatch. He's a great character with a solid theme which was wrapped up quite well.

It wasn't intended as me saying Ace is a bad character, he just wasn't one I can find my self getting so attached to that his death as a tragedy to me.
I just needed a little more content with him, is all, but then again that's just my personal opinion on it. And Oda does seem to be aware of that since he glazes him a lot in flashbacks now.

 

[kekaro]

Damn reading the old shit really people from the intro knew he would be a sanji victim lmao @soupongo

fucking core memory unlocked