General & Others which Series had bigger Retcons? One Piece or Naruto
- Thread starter Dettles
- Start date
It would have been great if it was.
Naruto only carried the Will of Ashura. Not his entire reincarnation.
They followed their own path and ended up following the same route as Indra/Ashura.
Hashirama and Indra were reincarnation too. But Madara changed everything with decisions he took.
I'm sorry, but Naruto was a fucking orphan till the end of the show and forever. He didn't magically brought his dead parents back to life.
Sasuke is still an asshole.
Naruto only carried the Will of Ashura. Not his entire reincarnation.
They followed their own path and ended up following the same route as Indra/Ashura.
Hashirama and Indra were reincarnation too. But Madara changed everything with decisions he took.
I'm sorry, but Naruto was a fucking orphan till the end of the show and forever. He didn't magically brought his dead parents back to life.
Sasuke is still an asshole.
Luffy is portrayed as the central underdog through most of the story, arguably he’s never not been the underdog in most arcs he’s in.
despite inherenting CoC, befriending a celestial dragon Yonko, having two legendary relatives in Garp and dragon, Ace too technically.
he’s an underdog with every advantage including a mythical zoan fruit with its own will that he ate as a child.
Naruto was portrayed as an outcast that won over most of his peers by the end of part 1 & that theme isn’t really hard addressed again until the Pein arc. Woulda been nice sure but the focus of the story drifted from Naruto’s loneliness and struggle to Naruto’s bond with Sasuke
despite inherenting CoC, befriending a celestial dragon Yonko, having two legendary relatives in Garp and dragon, Ace too technically.
he’s an underdog with every advantage including a mythical zoan fruit with its own will that he ate as a child.
Naruto was portrayed as an outcast that won over most of his peers by the end of part 1 & that theme isn’t really hard addressed again until the Pein arc. Woulda been nice sure but the focus of the story drifted from Naruto’s loneliness and struggle to Naruto’s bond with Sasuke
I agree with Johnny here. Made this post back in june to explain why:
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Naruto failed its own premisse in that matter. It's not abysmal, it's still very entertaining, but the destiny aspect kind of negates the first part of the story and the thematic of hard work (not that it is something that I like, I actually prefer the destiny aspect now)
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As for Luffy he has always been special and he has ALWAYS been presented as someone special far from the realm of the "hard working underdog".
1. First Luffy is the literal incarnation of Hope. He is presented as the character that we must BELIEVE in. Which is the OPPOSITE of an underdog. Literally, Luffy saves people.
2. Second, Luffy was not presented as a real underdog until Crocodile appeared.
3. Luffy was FIRSTLY seen working on himself when he met Vivi. Up until this point, Luffy vibed with situation and didn't care about his own behavior or the state of his own strenght (at least after his departure). The second time he had to work hard through himself was depicted through crocodile when he invented ways to beat him. The third time (if you do not take the bar fight which was a lesson learned back in the dayz) was against Enel, then it was against Aokiji where he later demonstrated against Blueno the need to become stronger for the FIRST time for his friends after THINKING about a new technique he could come up with. (yes i'm emphasizing the "thinking" part because people never really took care to look at these panels for what they really were. Not training, THINKING, COMING UP with something. Something he wanted to TRY)
This is what I'm talking when I say "subtle hints at gear 5", "subtle preparations". Luffy does not train. He does not "work hard" outside of battles and timeskip. What he does is simply not giving up. Ever.
His techniques, his powers are mostly due to his brain, not his brawl. Luffy had to train for the first time since his youth because he lost to someone. Before that.. there are no data or too few to support this idea.
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What happened - I believed - is that during One Piece, you read Naruto, like me, probably liking more Naruto than One Piece at first, like me too. And you projected some of the thematics of Naruto (or another manga) which are also the thematics of the meritocracy ("big work, big reward") into the story without reflecting about it.
And you are now projecting the flaws of Naruto (the sudden shift between work and destiny) on One Piece
Because when you tell me that "One Piece Started as a tale about an hard working underdog".. when we know that the D appeared as far as Drum as a mystery, that people started talking about Luffy has the reincarnation of Gol D Roger... or that characters spoke about destiny as early as CHAPTER 96
And when we also witnessed THREE chapters later a freaking LIGHTNING STRIKE coming down out of seemingly nowhere to save Luffy!!
Leaving characters wondering about god:
I'm sorry but I will tell you straight in the eyes something that you need to hear to get a wake up call:
You do not understand what you are talking about the story.
One Piece is not the story of an "hard working underdog" it is the tale of a legendary crew.
Probably written by someone long after the fact.
1. First Luffy is the literal incarnation of Hope. He is presented as the character that we must BELIEVE in. Which is the OPPOSITE of an underdog. Literally, Luffy saves people.
2. Second, Luffy was not presented as a real underdog until Crocodile appeared.
3. Luffy was FIRSTLY seen working on himself when he met Vivi. Up until this point, Luffy vibed with situation and didn't care about his own behavior or the state of his own strenght (at least after his departure). The second time he had to work hard through himself was depicted through crocodile when he invented ways to beat him. The third time (if you do not take the bar fight which was a lesson learned back in the dayz) was against Enel, then it was against Aokiji where he later demonstrated against Blueno the need to become stronger for the FIRST time for his friends after THINKING about a new technique he could come up with. (yes i'm emphasizing the "thinking" part because people never really took care to look at these panels for what they really were. Not training, THINKING, COMING UP with something. Something he wanted to TRY)
This is what I'm talking when I say "subtle hints at gear 5", "subtle preparations". Luffy does not train. He does not "work hard" outside of battles and timeskip. What he does is simply not giving up. Ever.
His techniques, his powers are mostly due to his brain, not his brawl. Luffy had to train for the first time since his youth because he lost to someone. Before that.. there are no data or too few to support this idea.
---
What happened - I believed - is that during One Piece, you read Naruto, like me, probably liking more Naruto than One Piece at first, like me too. And you projected some of the thematics of Naruto (or another manga) which are also the thematics of the meritocracy ("big work, big reward") into the story without reflecting about it.
And you are now projecting the flaws of Naruto (the sudden shift between work and destiny) on One Piece
Because when you tell me that "One Piece Started as a tale about an hard working underdog".. when we know that the D appeared as far as Drum as a mystery, that people started talking about Luffy has the reincarnation of Gol D Roger... or that characters spoke about destiny as early as CHAPTER 96
And when we also witnessed THREE chapters later a freaking LIGHTNING STRIKE coming down out of seemingly nowhere to save Luffy!!
Leaving characters wondering about god:
I'm sorry but I will tell you straight in the eyes something that you need to hear to get a wake up call:
You do not understand what you are talking about the story.
One Piece is not the story of an "hard working underdog" it is the tale of a legendary crew.
Probably written by someone long after the fact.
That distant descendants of Ninja Jesus strive to become some of the greatest Shinobi of their time?
But that's distant relations, Naruto is the *direct* descendant and basically his reincarnation. And you know what makes it all so much worse? Kaguya was in the whole series for less then five chapters.
Kishimoto didn't even need to do all this. It could just been a trend of good friends becoming rivals without inheritance and reincarnation and all that jazz. It was so frankly unnecessary.
But that's distant relations, Naruto is the *direct* descendant and basically his reincarnation. And you know what makes it all so much worse? Kaguya was in the whole series for less then five chapters.
Kishimoto didn't even need to do all this. It could just been a trend of good friends becoming rivals without inheritance and reincarnation and all that jazz. It was so frankly unnecessary.
I don’t think Naruto being the reincarnation of Asura’s transcendent vigor makes him Hagomoro’s direct descendant. No more than it makes Hashirama or Madara his direct descendants, otherwise what do you consider Hashirama and Naruto? Brothers? The same person?
Yes, without shoehorning the reincarnates the story would’ve been better. I’ll defend Kaguya’s inclusion though, it should’ve been better handled since we only get 20 chapters of very loose foreshadowing before she appears.
But Madara was a shit final villain
Yes, without shoehorning the reincarnates the story would’ve been better. I’ll defend Kaguya’s inclusion though, it should’ve been better handled since we only get 20 chapters of very loose foreshadowing before she appears.
But Madara was a shit final villain
I loved Madara... but Kaguya was the final villain
The main problem of Naruto, if we need to call that a problem since the story was still amazing.. is the lack of plantings for Kaguya mainly. Such a revelation would have needed at least a preparation from the beginning of Shippuden. Not something big, but little hints here and there.
That is something Oda completely mastered.
The main problem of Naruto, if we need to call that a problem since the story was still amazing.. is the lack of plantings for Kaguya mainly. Such a revelation would have needed at least a preparation from the beginning of Shippuden. Not something big, but little hints here and there.
That is something Oda completely mastered.
Hinduism reincarnation believes the soul is the same, even if the body changes. So, yes, from that perspective, they are brothers still, despite their worldly vessels having changed.
I'm sure you know Ashura is a type of entity similar to the Jotnar of Norse Mythology. Did you know Indra is the Hindu God of Thunder and King of it's pantheon? Which the Ashuras oppose.
I'm sure you know Ashura is a type of entity similar to the Jotnar of Norse Mythology. Did you know Indra is the Hindu God of Thunder and King of it's pantheon? Which the Ashuras oppose.
Why would you call that out? That's actually a good idea.
If Teach and Luffy have to team up to fight Davy Jones for whatever lore reason and if said whatever lore reason is solid thematically and prepared quite well, I would have no problem with that. Even if I doubt that is the case.
We have to understand that the problem of Naruto is not Kaguya overtaking the end of the battle. It was never her the problem. The problem is how quick that revelation was created and the lack of setups, plantings and preparations.
As you explain yourself, Davy Jones is on the plate, which was not the case for Kaguya at the time, meaning that Davy Jones would already have more legitimacy in being introduced as a final Villain than Kaguya.
In a story, no ideas are bad in their essence. Only the way they are processed by the narration can create a problem.
I think Kaguya was at least thought out at the beginning of Shippuden, I would even risk myself to say that KIshi already had the idea at the beginning of the manga.
The only problem (and this is a difference with One Piece) is that Kishi is a lot sloppier with his revelations and setups. Oda tends to use retcons through to reframe already previousely introduced story points and parameters to flip our vision. He does that pretty much every arcs. But to do that, elements needs to be introduced or at least heavily hinted at and make sense when the vision is flipped. Kishi completely underestimated the level of preparation he needed to create for Kaguya.
Thematically, it makes complete sense and it is even very good, but in the execution, it's sloppy and too sudden. So he put the minimum, a few symbolism here and there and that's all. When it needed at least a lore drop, a characterization to introduce her desires and need as far as the middle shippudden, a repeated mention of her strenght etc.
Oda left a lot of holes and unexplained parameters regarding his power, the lore of the gods in One Piece, Luffy's strange healing capacities, his will, Joy Boy .. etc. So when Nika appeared, the only thing that was really new was the concept of the "Hito hito no mi model Nika" and it made the flip completely groundbreaking. Turning dozens of previousely introduced elements on their heads.
One Piece has a lot more retcon, simply because Oda knows how to handle them.
If Teach and Luffy have to team up to fight Davy Jones for whatever lore reason and if said whatever lore reason is solid thematically and prepared quite well, I would have no problem with that. Even if I doubt that is the case.
We have to understand that the problem of Naruto is not Kaguya overtaking the end of the battle. It was never her the problem. The problem is how quick that revelation was created and the lack of setups, plantings and preparations.
As you explain yourself, Davy Jones is on the plate, which was not the case for Kaguya at the time, meaning that Davy Jones would already have more legitimacy in being introduced as a final Villain than Kaguya.
In a story, no ideas are bad in their essence. Only the way they are processed by the narration can create a problem.
I think Kaguya was at least thought out at the beginning of Shippuden, I would even risk myself to say that KIshi already had the idea at the beginning of the manga.
The only problem (and this is a difference with One Piece) is that Kishi is a lot sloppier with his revelations and setups. Oda tends to use retcons through to reframe already previousely introduced story points and parameters to flip our vision. He does that pretty much every arcs. But to do that, elements needs to be introduced or at least heavily hinted at and make sense when the vision is flipped. Kishi completely underestimated the level of preparation he needed to create for Kaguya.
Thematically, it makes complete sense and it is even very good, but in the execution, it's sloppy and too sudden. So he put the minimum, a few symbolism here and there and that's all. When it needed at least a lore drop, a characterization to introduce her desires and need as far as the middle shippudden, a repeated mention of her strenght etc.
Oda left a lot of holes and unexplained parameters regarding his power, the lore of the gods in One Piece, Luffy's strange healing capacities, his will, Joy Boy .. etc. So when Nika appeared, the only thing that was really new was the concept of the "Hito hito no mi model Nika" and it made the flip completely groundbreaking. Turning dozens of previousely introduced elements on their heads.
One Piece has a lot more retcon, simply because Oda knows how to handle them.
@Logiko No, look, Necrom was the final boss of Final Fantasy IX, but no one gives a fuck about him, because Kuja was the actual villain for most of the game, and his defeat causes this guy to show up out of nowhere.
A villain who just drops in at the last second for any medium like Kaguya or Necrom or Davy Jones is shit.
A villain who just drops in at the last second for any medium like Kaguya or Necrom or Davy Jones is shit.
You explained the problem of late villain in your very sentence. "last second".
A good villain requires a good preparation. By that I mean that making Davy Jones the final villain is not - in itself - a bad choice if said choice is followed by a good preparation, ideally beginning at the end of the current arc.
Like you said, "last second villain". Davy Jones, by nature is not "last second" it's a character whose relevancy to the story has been starting to pop up here and there already, and my point is that if Davy D Jones is indeed meant to be a final villain, which I doubt, he will be followed by a good preparation.
Oda is not some kind of random writer, he is a master at plantings. That is the things he excels at and one of the main reason why One Piece feels so good to theorize on.
A good villain requires a good preparation. By that I mean that making Davy Jones the final villain is not - in itself - a bad choice if said choice is followed by a good preparation, ideally beginning at the end of the current arc.
Like you said, "last second villain". Davy Jones, by nature is not "last second" it's a character whose relevancy to the story has been starting to pop up here and there already, and my point is that if Davy D Jones is indeed meant to be a final villain, which I doubt, he will be followed by a good preparation.
Oda is not some kind of random writer, he is a master at plantings. That is the things he excels at and one of the main reason why One Piece feels so good to theorize on.