Versus Battle Itachi and Kisame vs Scopper Gaban

[Sentinel]

Let alone that, we don't even know how Amaterasu would work on other verse character. Unless they have some absolute immunity to fire.

The HST verse is pretty weak in comparison to others, even if you exclude this mainly on anime verses.
We've seen Amaterasu's speed limit when it couldn't catch Ay, the latter neither has precognition nor is he as fast as Gaban.

Even if they are equalised there properties are entirely different.
Chakra can disrupts the flow and break genjutsu, Idk if Haki can.
Chakra can used as Projection type material to avoid Amaterasu like Naruto did and even that was burned off.
Kisame has Samehada which sucks chakra of opponent and wielder alike, can it suck opponent haki too?

Ofc specific abilities stay to the respective energy sources like haki, chakra, (Fairy Tail) magic or other form of magic.
It is mainly to avoid annoying things like "Bleach character x just releases his reijatsu and the opponent dies since they have no reijatsu" or "genjutsu doesn't work on this and that."

Now, can Kisame just absorb Gaban's attack if it's coated in Haki? Unless it's being mentioned by the OP, it wouldn't be able to... not that it'd do a significant difference either since Kisame's just taking out the spiritual energy coating the huge air slash which is about to turn him into sashimi.

There's no author who would suddenly say "Stop! Kisame cannot absorb Kaido's Thunderbagua force!", so you can basically decide your "ifs and buts"

Sasori's poison

It can be foreseen with FS and Gaban is massively faster than Sasori.

Deidara's explosives.

See above.

That's not even getting into Nagato or Itachi

Nagato's soul steal is a problem but Gaban easily handles everything else. Even Nagato's Chibaku Tensei isn't an issue for Gaban.

Itachi's the only issue with his genjutsus but as I said again, Gaban can see into the future. I dunno if it's enough to let him see through the genjutsu (like if Gaban actually sees the illusion in his Future Sight) but at least we'd understand that his opponent deals with illusions in which Gaban would keep his distance.
Itachi also isn't fast enough to land the first attack. His opponent is several times faster and stronger - and unlike Kaido or Big Mom, he doesn't hesitate to attack his opponent.

Akatsuki is only a problem due to Itachi ngl. Even Obito wouldn't catch Gaban as easily but Gaban wouldn't also be able to bypass his space time ninjutsu and I doubt he'll understand Obito's weakness soon enough.
Thus, Itachi and Obito are dangerous due to their hax. The other ones are not spared by Gaban's overwhelming strength, they all get killed in an AoE attack.

 

[Sentinel]

Yes Raikage did avoid that he was smart enough to get away from the direction of Amaterasu line.

Nope, that is wrong.

Sasuke already fired his Amaterasu in Ay's direction, he was just fast enough to react and dodge this attack before it managed to hit him:

This was 100% a legit speed feat.

 

[Cruxroux]

Sasuke already fired his Amaterasu in Ay's direction, he was just fast enough to react and dodge this attack before it managed to hit him

That's what I said?

 

[Cruxroux]

Nope, that is wrong.

Sasuke already fired his Amaterasu in Ay's direction, he was just fast enough to react and dodge this attack before it managed to hit him:

This was 100% a legit speed feat.

Spoiler

I'm talking about tagging Raikage at point blank range.
Ai can still after loosing his hand, I can't say the same for Gaban.
Also Gaban definitely not moving like Ai lightening speed lol.

 

[Cruxroux]

the latter neither has precognition nor is he as fast as Gaban.

Wrong. On an average a Ninja is faster than whatever means One piece world is using.
Gaban is a speed focussed user, yet I assure you itachi got Body flicker under his command.
He is one of the fastest himself.

Now, can Kisame just absorb Gaban's attack if it's coated in Haki? Unless it's being mentioned by the OP, it wouldn't be able to... not that it'd do a significant difference either since Kisame's just taking out the spiritual energy coating the huge air slash which is about to turn him into sashimi.

Except Kisame has already survived beinf be headed.


- On top of that Kotoamatsuki is always there with Itachi, you don't even need to look in the eyes anymore.
- Izanami/Izanagi exists.
- Susanoo with special weapons.


There is simply too much of Hax here with Haki/chakra can't counter even if we were equalise them.

 

[Sentinel]

Wrong. On an average a Ninja is faster than whatever means One piece world is using.

We're not dealing with averages, Gaban is one of the strongest pirates AND a speedster.
Those characters can hold their own against Kizaru when it comes to reacting to his light speed attacks.
Naruto top tiers are far from this speed-level.

Except Kisame has already survived beinf be headed.

When?

- On top of that Kotoamatsuki is always there with Itachi, you don't even need to look in the eyes anymore.
- Izanami/Izanagi exists.
- Susanoo with special weapons.

1.) Good argument.
2.) Izanami doesn't work on Gaban, he's not pretending to be someone else. Izanagi resets your death in a certain time frame but like I said, Gaban has like 100 ways to kill Itachi if it doesn't involve his genjutsus.
3.) Totsuga sword can be avoided due to FS, Yata Mirror is a nlf and there's no argument it'd work against characters significantly stronger than Naruto top tiers.

 

[Sentinel]

Ai can still after loosing his hand, I can't say the same for Gaban.
Also Gaban definitely not moving like Ai lightening speed lol.

Gaban doesn't have to. He was cutting up an adam tree branch in several pieces and a single piece dwarfed an Elbaf mountain. Those things are usually 10x the size of "ordinary mountains." So Gaban doesn't have to rely on cqc.
I agree, he's faster.

 

[Cruxroux]

We're not dealing with averages, Gaban is one of the strongest pirates AND a speedster.
Those characters can hold their own against Kizaru when it comes to reacting to his light speed attacks.
Naruto top tiers are far from this speed-level.

Dude they ain't fighting at light speed.
He only travels momentarily at light speed and not even one piece verse can tag that shit.

Whereas Raikage actually travels at Very high speed and fight at that speed on top of that. We have no character like Raikage in one piece as of now. Maybe Imu demonstrated that feat cutting fingers of Gerd but even that hype was shortlived.
And Itachi doesn't have Ai light lightrning speed, he still body flicker jutsu under his command.
Ai was himself using a form of body flicker alongside lightening.

When?

Ai and Killer bee tag team.

2.) Izanami doesn't work on Gaban, he's not pretending to be someone else. Izanagi resets your death in a certain time frame but like I said, Gaban has like 100 ways to kill Itachi if it doesn't involve his genjutsus.

Izanagi and Izanami are beyond any character though.
We have no evidence of someone breaking out of it unless the weilder or caster removes it.
Itachi is a genius himself in battle IQ. If Gaban has 100 ways, Itachi probably got more. I don't think you can compare a character who was fighting rinnegan user and held up a fight.

Gaban doesn't have to. He was cutting up an adam tree branch in several pieces and a single piece dwarfed an Elbaf mountain. Those things are usually 10x the size of "ordinary mountains." So Gaban doesn't have to rely on cqc.
I agree, he's faster.

That kinda fails in front of Susanoo.
Susanoo at some point was called the best defense. And Yata mirror is just cherry on top in this situation.

 

[Sentinel]

Dude they ain't fighting at light speed.
He only travels momentarily at light speed and not even one piece verse can tag that shit.

There are several feats when Kizaru turned into light, tried to attack someone and a top tier or other characters intercepted him by it, like Marco. Sanji straight up kicked Kizaru's light beam away which moves at LS.

Furthermore, Kizaru is literally the light man. He's the most legit light speed character when it comes to the HST verse and thus, all characters reacting and capable to fighting him massively benefit from it.

Whereas Raikage actually travels at Very high speed and fight at that speed on top of that.

You want to make rules for the light man but you give the pass to a man who's using a lightning armor??

Ai and Killer bee tag team

That wasn't Kisame, it was Zetsu.

Izanagi and Izanami are beyond any character though.

Once again, Izanami is basically a counter to Izanagi, thus to those trying to deny reality. Gaban obviously doesn't fit this description.
Izanagi resets someone's life at the cost of your own eyesight. So once Itachi uses it, he lost one of his eyes. Not to mention that MS techniques are taxing by itself and they can quickly make Itachi blind.

Susanoo at some point was called the best defense

No limit fallacy.

 

[Cruxroux]

There are several feats when Kizaru turned into light, tried to attack someone and a top tier or other characters intercepted him by it, like Marco. Sanji straight up kicked Kizaru's light beam away which moves at LS.

Furthermore, Kizaru is literally the light man. He's the most legit light speed character when it comes to the HST verse and thus, all characters reacting and capable to fighting him massively benefit from it.

You're literally proving my point only.
Kizaru doesn't 'fight' at light speed.
He moves at light only when he is transitioned into light. Before and after that he ain't at light speed.
Marco, Rayleigh intercepted kizaru before he transtioned.

I don't make the rules Oda does and Kizaru isn't fighting at lightt speed.

You want to make rules for the light man but you give the pass to a man who's using a lightning armor??

Again dude, we have on screen evidence raikage fights with that speed. Kizaru doesn't.
We have zero panels of Kizaru fighting in light speed, and once he transitions nobody in one pieve verse can tag him.

That wasn't Kisame, it was Zetsu.

Oh my bad.

Once again, Izanami is basically a counter to Izanagi, thus to those trying to deny reality. Gaban obviously doesn't fit this description

Until he does, he knows nothing about his opponent.

No limit fallacy.

It is what it is, Susanoo is one of the best defense in the series. Madara chopped down multiple mountains in one swing, it's dumb to think he can't block gaban attacks.

 

[Sentinel]

Kizaru doesn't 'fight' at light speed.
He moves at light only when he is transitioned into light.

Bro, this doesn't make sense at all.
We've often seen how logia users were in their element when they weren't completely turning into such. Enel is a prime example since he moved and attacked with lightning speed.

Either way, this was Kizaru's introduction in the manga:

Spoiler

1.) He traversed the environment casually in light speed without transforming into such.
2.) The fodders tried to shot him, it straight went through him, then he was suddenly behind them.
3.) His light beam attack was portrayed to reach the distance instantious.

Now against the supernovas, his most famous quote, "Have you ever been kicked at the speed of light":

Spoiler

He didn't transform into his light form either.

Now, Kizaru's speed feats against the rest of the supernovas without turning into light:

Spoiler

Against Drake:

Spoiler

Again, no light transformation as well.

The move in question, which you probably mean, is the one used against Apoo:

Spoiler

The vivre card also confirmed Kizaru both traverses AND attacks in light speed. Thus, both the manga and vivre card confirmed it.

Here in this panel, Kizaru was in the middle of traversal in light speed but Rayleigh intercepted him:

Rayleigh even left a papercut on Kizaru. You can also see that Kizaru already turned into photons and was moving around, yet he was stopped by Rayleigh.

This is definitely not a pure precognition feat since you need near relativistic speed to stop a lightspeed attack in its mid-movement. We already know CoO/Sharingan precognition doesn't mean much when the opponent is too fast. Thus, Rayleigh's feat is a pure speed-feat.

Again dude, we have on screen evidence raikage fights with that speed. Kizaru doesn't.

See above.

Until he does

Itachi proved Izanami only work on people like Kabutomaru. It'll never work on Gaban because he's not this kind of a person.

It is what it is

Dude, Madara's Susanoo was broken by Tsunade's fists and you have like +100 verses, if we leave the OP verse for a sec, who treat planets like baseballs.

Only because Susanoo is considered "one of the best defence" in such a small cosmology such as Naruto (at that time, which barely had any mountain level feats), doesn't mean we can apply such meaningless statements in crossover battles. Based on what Gaban has shown last and the current chapter, he potentially can completely wipe out entire landscapes worth of 50 or even 100 mountains or more at once.

That piece of adam tree branch destroyed half of a larger mountain in Elbaph. Everything is gigantic in Elbaph, even the plants. A single branch contained an entire Giant village and entire forests. Based on what we know, Dragon Loki was approximately the size of those villages.

 

[Cruxroux]

See above.

You're missing the entire point blud.
Kizaru never fights at light speed. That shit is impossible and astronomically destructive.

Kizaru only Moves at light speed, not fights at light speed. You're trying to argue the impossible.

Only when he phases he can at light speed that's it. And if the phasing is stopped. It's GG. Even sentoumaru could Tag Kizaru after that.

Itachi proved Izanami only work on people like Kabutomaru. It'll never work on Gaban because he's not this kind of a person.

Izanagi still exists and Itachi got 3 mangekyou.

Dude, Madara's Susanoo was broken by Tsunade's fists and you have like +100 verses, if we leave the OP verse for a sec, who treat planets like baseballs.

And? Tsunade strength, also Sakura strength was as destructive af.

Only because Susanoo is considered "one of the best defence" in such a small cosmology such as Naruto (at that time, which barely had any mountain level feats), doesn't mean we can apply such meaningless statements in crossover battles. Based on what Gaban has shown last and the current chapter, he potentially can completely wipe out entire landscapes worth of 50 or even 100 mountains or more at once.

This is even more biased
What happened to equivalence of Chakra and Haki?
Susanoo is basically chakra itself, if you were to equate it Haki, Both Itachi and Gaban stands at top tier of their time.

And Yata Mirror literally deflects the attacks.

That piece of adam tree branch destroyed half of a larger mountain in Elbaph. Everything is gigantic in Elbaph, even the plants. A single branch contained an entire Giant village and entire forests. Based on what we know, Dragon Loki was approximately the size of those villages.

And you think a single mountain from Elbaf is bigger than entire area Madara Sliced?
The entire Area which Madara sliced could easily replicate the mountain destruction Those branches did.

 

[Sentinel]

You're missing the entire point blud.

No, you're the one missing these.

My initial point was how several characters reacted and acted to light speed moves, then I brought Rayleigh into this conversation. Yet, you ignored the entire part to double down on your headcanon. I treat Kizaru like the manga intended it to be: a light man, who moves and attacks at lightspeed.

Kizaru never fights at light speed. That shit is impossible and astronomically destructive.

We're discussing cross over battles. There are verses which massively surpass light speed.
There's no reason to downplay Kizaru's light as "unrealistic" when all verses don't follow light physics 1:1.

not fights at light speed.

Once again:

He literally attacks with light-speed.

Only when he phases he can at light speed that's it. And if the phasing is stopped. It's GG. Even sentoumaru could Tag Kizaru after that.

1.) Once again, that's not the case. I provided the evidence above.
2.) Sentoumaru is a One Piece high tier, so it's odd to say "even Sentoumaru could do it." It's like stating "Look, Krillin managed to react to Dyspos, that means Bakugo has a chance" - that's a feat for the specific One Piece character and not something characters from other verses can leech of. So if One Piece high tier characters can react to lightspeed while Naruto top tiers struggle against lightning speed, it's unfortunate but the latter is simply slower.

zanagi still exists and Itachi got 3 mangekyou.

Itachi had one extra eye?

And? Tsunade strength, also Sakura strength was as destructive af.

In terms of what? Tsunade literally cannot replicate the physical power to destroy mountains, let alone keeping up with someone who could easily destroy 100 of mountains in a single move.

This is even more biased
What happened to equivalence of Chakra and Haki?
Susanoo is basically chakra itself, if you were to equate it Haki, Both Itachi and Gaban stands at top tier of their time.

The top of one verse can very well be the bottom of another verse, or not even that.
The equivalence of ki and haki. Both Beerus and Itachi stand at the top of their time, right? Yet, would you claim Itachi stands a chance to someone who can destroy universes?

Thankfully, in that case, Naruto top is better than One Piece top, however: Nardo god tiers > One Piece top tiers > Naruto top tiers >= One Piece high tiers and so on.

And you think a single mountain from Elbaf is bigger than entire area Madara Sliced?

Of course, a single room of Road's castle contained a town and the castle was located at the tip of a mountain iirc.
The Elbaph scale is just that massive.

Dragon Loki is the size of Onigashima, yet it is just the size of a giant village.

The entire Area which Madara sliced could easily replicate the mountain destruction Those branches did.

Could? Nah, prove it.

 

[soupongo]

It can be foreseen with FS and Gaban is massively faster than Sasori.

See above.

Nagato's soul steal is a problem but Gaban easily handles everything else. Even Nagato's Chibaku Tensei isn't an issue for Gaban.

Itachi's the only issue with his genjutsus but as I said again, Gaban can see into the future. I dunno if it's enough to let him see through the genjutsu (like if Gaban actually sees the illusion in his Future Sight) but at least we'd understand that his opponent deals with illusions in which Gaban would keep his distance.
Itachi also isn't fast enough to land the first attack. His opponent is several times faster and stronger - and unlike Kaido or Big Mom, he doesn't hesitate to attack his opponent.

Akatsuki is only a problem due to Itachi ngl. Even Obito wouldn't catch Gaban as easily but Gaban wouldn't also be able to bypass his space time ninjutsu and I doubt he'll understand Obito's weakness soon enough.
Thus, Itachi and Obito are dangerous due to their hax. The other ones are not spared by Gaban's overwhelming strength, they all get killed in an AoE attack.

I think you're underestimating how even future sight can be pretty flawed in a group setting. Think Ceasar getting Katakuri while he's busy with Germa, or Flampe. Canonically, I don't think Gaban is even really as good as Kata in future sight,so the entire Akatsuki spamming attacks at once would be too much for him. With backup like Rayleigh or something? Idk, it could be more debatable I guess.

Itachi had one extra eye?

.

yeah, Shisui. Though I don't really think Izanagi would be Itachi's thing

 

[Sentinel]

I think you're underestimating how even future sight can be pretty flawed in a group setting. Think Ceasar getting Katakuri while he's busy with Germa, or Flampe

I think this moment with Caesar happened because Katakuri wasn't even aware he was in that location and you have to use FS after all.
However, on the tea party, FS worked perfectly fine in a group setting, for example:

Spoiler

The moment FS is activated, you automatically see a glimpse of your environment in the near future, around 5 or 10 seconds. This can include poison or explosive attacks. Just like this:

Spoiler

FS is even good at detecting attacks without a presence or noise:

Spoiler

Furthermore, Oda used CoO in his story less frequently but technically, there's no argument to why Kuri's FS is more frequent than Gaban's. Heck, Gaban immediately used FS in a situation where it was necessary and based on what he's shown against Imu, FS was likely used as well. He isn't like Kaido who likes taking attacks. He's cautious and his situational awareness is extremely skilled. There's no reason to assume he wouldn't be 24/7 on guard against unknown enemies with unknown powers. He's an old man and I'd assume he's experienced enough to consider these possibilities.

yeah, Shisui. Though I don't really think Izanagi would be Itachi's thing

Ah true.
Also, I don't even think Izanagi would be that useful against someone who can cut him up at every second anyway. On the other hand, Izanagi can be used for an upcoming surprise attack, likely being used for a following genjutsu attack.

The thing is, Gaban is so fast, he'd just appear invisible in Itachi's eyes. Kind of similar like this situation:

Sanji went on FTE against Queen who's a 1.3 billion commander level pirate. Gaban is significantly stronger and faster than this Sanji.

 

[soupongo]

I think this moment with Caesar happened because Katakuri wasn't even aware he was in that location and you have to use FS after all.
However, on the tea party, FS worked perfectly fine in a group setting, for example:

Spoiler

The moment FS is activated, you automatically see a glimpse of your environment in the near future, around 5 or 10 seconds. This can include poison or explosive attacks. Just like this:


FS is even good at detecting attacks without a presence or noise:

I'm not super moved by the tea party situation. The goal of everyone involved is ultimately to destroy the picture, it's not to deal with Katakuri. He's dealing with them essentially 1 by 1. Bege, than Luffy, Jinbei etc. The Ceasar thing is off panel piece, but it gives us an idea of how Oda thinks of this stuff. Katakuri can see the future, but he's still a human limited by having limited focus on one thing at once, and multi tasking won't be easy. Dealing with what... like 10 guys in the Akatsuki? I don't think future sight is a solution here, tbh.

Katakuri's FS is probably more frequent than at least current Gaban. Idk about his prime, but Kuri's entire life resolves around FS, for Gaban it's a side thing.

 

[Sentinel]

I'm not super moved by the tea party situation. The goal of everyone involved is ultimately to destroy the picture, it's not to deal with Katakuri. He's dealing with them essentially 1 by 1. Bege, than Luffy, Jinbei etc. The Ceasar thing is off panel piece, but it gives us an idea of how Oda thinks of this stuff. Katakuri can see the future, but he's still a human limited by having limited focus on one thing at once, and multi tasking won't be easy. Dealing with what... like 10 guys in the Akatsuki? I don't think future sight is a solution here, tbh.

You're not seeing the bigger picture here.
This isn't about the goal destroying some picture, it's about Katakuri's FS responding to several enemies at once and I provided the evidence when he always had an answer which was physically possible for him. Even in cases, where Katakuri couldn't stop the event from happening, he STILL saw it - like when dozens of monkeys got out of the wedding cake.

Let's be clear, Future Sight is simply the advanced form of regular CoO where you can sense the intent of an attack and predict it's movement. It's not like the Sharingan where it's only reading muscle movement and thus predicts the next immediate move, the user literally sees 5 or 10 seconds into the real future.
That's how Shanks saw Kidd obliterating his entire alliance with Damned Punk - a massive AoE attack.

Therefore, it's no reason to assume Gaban wouldn't activate his FS the soon he's feeling the killing intent of the opponent. Yes, even regular CoO can do that. Even regular CoO users are like Sensing Shinobis and 3rd tomoe Sharingan Uchihas in one person. The Akatsuki members ain't surprising Gaban with AoE attacks if plot doesn't restrict FS users, unless some unpredictable hax is involved.

 

[MagellanHydra]

Gaban blitzes and oneshots

This 2 are Enel victims