General & Others Kill the myth : Kizaru is the one who injured Marco the most, not Garp and he didn't need Onigumo for that.

[BlackLegFring]

Take a look at the top left panel, Marco is rotating at a high speed in a circular motion with his wings. If he was ripped to pieces, the lasers wouldn't build up in front of him, they'd instead dissipate upon impact or go through him and his defense wouldn't have done anything. Essentially marco's high speed rotations created a wind pocket that stopped the momentum of the lasers, causing them to build up in front of him instead of on him or going through him. You see those jagged lines by his rotations?

So nah, marco actually was 100% untouched really in that encounter.

You can literally see the holes in Marco's body. In the next couple of panels those holes close up and the soldiers comment that he is completely healed up because of his regeneration. The entire point of a pheonix's powers is to regenerate damage, so how could Oda showcase it if Marco didn't receive any damage? That's just illogical.

What's the point of trying to give excuses here? We see the lasers penetrate Marco later on, just as they penetrate WB when Kizaru shoots him. It's clearly still the worst damage Marco has taken. Even just the single hole in his head would have killed him without the regeneration.

 

[HopOnTheHype]

You can literally see the holes in Marco's body. In the next couple of panels those holes close up and the soldiers comment that he is completely healed up because of his regeneration. The entire point of a pheonix's powers is to regenerate damage, so how could Oda showcase it if Marco didn't receive any damage? That's just illogical.

What's the point of trying to give excuses here? We see the lasers penetrate Marco later on, just as they penetrate WB when Kizaru shoots him. It's clearly still the worst damage Marco has taken. Even just the single hole in his head would have killed him without the regeneration.

That just how Oda draws people sometimes, I think it's more a aesthetic choice because of all the extreme light shining around him where you can't clearly see his full form or what he is. You do mean the small pic above "the admiral's attack was blocked" (which btw, is further evidence that it was blocked and not body shielded)

Or do you mean the full reveal pic of him where he's talking, cuz those arne't holes, those are just flames burning on him. Also how would you explain the high speed spinning rotation or the marine saying it was blocked, or the fact that it didn't go through him.

Also we saw later what happens when marco is shot:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/o...est/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20130308091807

Marco shows physical pain and doesn't instantly regenerate away like it never happens instantly.

Marco isn't a one trick pony, he's a yonkou first mate who also has a zoan power boost + flight. His regeneration isn't as fullproof as you think it is, but he's also a much stronger individual than you think he is too.

The question is would the attack go through his head if he he wasn't a phoenix I'd say, physical flames probably are less durable than flesh and bone. Anyway it's all kind of worthless to discuss since marco was only hit with cheap shots in the entirety of marineford. If he didn't turn to worry about whitebeard (who was only struggling cuz squard stab and the heart attack it caused), he wouldn't have been hit the first time, and if he wasn't hit that time, he wouldn't have been open for onigumo to attack him while he was literally mid fall from the attack (he would have caught himself but his momentum was pushed by the laser, another piece of evidence that kizaru hadn't hurt him before that point cuz he wasn't displaced in the first attack or when he was flying at kizaru in the fair fight). And in the manga onigumo didn't overpower him or anything like in the anime, he just slipped the seastone on to make him more vulnerable. In the end, marco wasn't hurt at all in marineford outside of kizaru and garps cheap shots.

My main point is arguing the logistics of marco's devil fruit and proving that his regeneration doesn't go as far as others think, but he's not as over reliant on it as people claim as well, and that he's actually a physical beast with some soft intangibility (less perfect than logia) when he's focused on it (or maybe he was shifting the flames around so the lasers went through him like katakuri was doing instead, but he definetly wasn't getting hurt). When we saw kizaru hit marco the two times (both with and without seastone), marco was displaced and showed physical pain, and didn't instantly regenerate.


Here's another "oh no they have holes in them" pic:

So nah, marco has no holes in him.

 

[BlackLegFring]

That just how Oda draws people sometimes, I think it's more a aesthetic choice because of all the extreme light shining around him where you can't clearly see his full form or what he is. You do mean the small pic above "the admiral's attack was blocked" (which btw, is further evidence that it was blocked and not body shielded)

Or do you mean the full reveal pic of him where he's talking, cuz those arne't holes, those are just flames burning on him. Also how would you explain the high speed spinning rotation or the marine saying it was blocked, or the fact that it didn't go through him.

Also we saw later what happens when marco is shot:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/o...est/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20130308091807

Marco shows physical pain and doesn't instantly regenerate away like it never happens instantly.

Marco isn't a one trick pony, he's a yonkou first mate who also has a zoan power boost + flight. His regeneration isn't as fullproof as you think it is, but he's also a much stronger individual than you think he is too.

The question is would the attack go through his head if he he wasn't a phoenix I'd say, physical flames probably are less durable than flesh and bone. Anyway it's all kind of worthless to discuss since marco was only hit with cheap shots in the entirety of marineford. If he didn't turn to worry about whitebeard (who was only struggling cuz squard stab and the heart attack it caused), he wouldn't have been hit the first time, and if he wasn't hit that time, he wouldn't have been open for onigumo to attack him while he was literally mid fall from the attack (he would have caught himself but his momentum was pushed by the laser, another piece of evidence that kizaru hadn't hurt him before that point cuz he wasn't displaced in the first attack or when he was flying at kizaru in the fair fight). And in the manga onigumo didn't overpower him or anything like in the anime, he just slipped the seastone on to make him more vulnerable. In the end, marco wasn't hurt at all in marineford outside of kizaru and garps cheap shots.

My main point is arguing the logistics of marco's devil fruit and proving that his regeneration doesn't go as far as others think, but he's not as over reliant on it as people claim as well, and that he's actually a physical beast with some soft intangibility (less perfect than logia) when he's focused on it (or maybe he was shifting the flames around so the lasers went through him like katakuri was doing instead, but he definetly wasn't getting hurt). When we saw kizaru hit marco the two times (both with and without seastone), marco was displaced and showed physical pain, and didn't instantly regenerate.


Here's another "oh no they have holes in them" pic:

So nah, marco has no holes in him.

Nope. Those are clearly holes. You even see the holes in his wings and one in his side besides that one over his left eye. Did you think Oda drew that eye covered in flames for no reason? The flames that specifically cause the regeneration? Or why the soldiers literally follow that by saying his flames of regeneration allow him to regenerate from any attacks? Again, you can't showcase regeneration if there is nothing to regenerate.

[GALLERY=media, 289][/GALLERY]

[GALLERY=media, 290][/GALLERY]

The entire point of Marco saying "it still hurts" is to show that the lasers did indeed have an effect but he just regenerated from them. Why do you think the lasers penetrated him later on but somehow couldn't do so in just this instance?
As for the rest, that is where the stylistic choice comes in. Oda couldn't very well let the lasers just continue to eviscerate WB so they poked holes in Marco then conveniently disappear. The story will always take precedence which is why when Kizaru does the 2nd barrage, Marco lets them pass through defeating the purpose of being a shield in the first place but the lasers just disappear and don't go on to hit anything afterwards.

Oda was simply inconsistent in the way he drew the powers, that is nothing new though.

I don't understand how the pic of Sanji fighting Vergo is supposed to be relevant.

 

[HopOnTheHype]

Nope. Those are clearly holes. You even see the holes in his wings and one in his side besides that one over his left eye. Did you think Oda drew that eye covered in flames for no reason? The flames that specifically cause the regeneration? Or why the soldiers literally follow that by saying his flames of regeneration allow him to regenerate from any attacks? Again, you can't showcase regeneration if there is nothing to regenerate.

[GALLERY=media, 289][/GALLERY]

[GALLERY=media, 290][/GALLERY]

The entire point of Marco saying "it still hurts" is to show that the lasers did indeed have an effect but he just regenerated from them. Why do you think the lasers penetrated him later on but somehow couldn't do so in just this instance?
As for the rest, that is where the stylistic choice comes in. Oda couldn't very well let the lasers just continue to eviscerate WB so they poked holes in Marco then conveniently disappear. The story will always take precedence which is why when Kizaru does the 2nd barrage, Marco lets them pass through defeating the purpose of being a shield in the first place but the lasers just disappear and don't go on to hit anything afterwards.

Oda was simply inconsistent in the way he drew the powers, that is nothing new though.

I don't understand how the pic of Sanji fighting Vergo is supposed to be relevant.

Go re-read the scene, I'm not like saying you're stupid or anything, but it was a long time ago and you seem to be misremembering it.

Marco's flame form seems to have some sort of flowing nature to it, like he can put holes in himself and so forth like a flame burning shifts around form wise. He couldn't have had holes in him by the simple fact that there were no lasers that got through him. Also I think that first pic is fanart of a small panel, so it's not even accurate I'd say:
http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/554/2

Also a very important thing worth mentioning, "It still hurts" or "oh look, I'm hurt" was said in mocking, Kizaru literally instantly after said in the next panel: "you're lying". It was then regurgitated back to him when marco kicked at him and kizaru blocked, saying a similar line like "oh that was effective", and marco saying "you're lying" before following thorugh and ragdolling kizaru.

So no, Marco was literally mocking Kizaru's failed attempt to hurt him. Even Kizaru pointed that out. It's no different than kizaru going "oh no, it's ben beckman" while raising his arms sarcastically, or when kizaru said "you supernovas are all so scary/monsters" when hawkins transformed behind him pre timeskip. Marco is extremely close in personality to Kizaru, to the point that they were regurgitating lines back and forth to each other, except that Marco also is a healer and has the capabilities to take a situation seriously if the need arises, and he's gone through a lot over the timeskip, so he's more serious now.

I'd argue that marco is actually using logia like manipulation to pretend there was a hole in his eye, cuz if you look at him in your first pic (if we are to believe that's just a clearer zoomed in version of the pic), as you can see, he has his left eye, then in the thing after, he doesn't have it, so clearly he didn't lose his eye (if we are to believe that's not a recreation), and only shifted his eye like that to mock Kizaru.

When Marco defended whitebeard against kizaru, you see see there is a circular spinning motion with his wings, essentially marco was using his high leveled physicals + the zoan boost to create a wind force that essentially stopped the lasers from advancing, thus they were built up on themselves and formed that orb because they had nowhere to go, cuz they couldn't pierce marco's defense. When they went through marco when he was in his full zoan form, marco showed no signs of pain or displacement, which he showed when he was actually hit with them later, this implies that he was either forming holes so the lasers went through him harmlessly like katakuri was doing to replicate logia like aspects, or his full flame bird form has TRUE intangibility (from non haki attacks)

Worth noting that kizaru's mass produced named laser attack is more about quantity over quality, while kizaru's individual 1-2 laser shots are stronger, so marco (who ragdolled kizaru in base, and is a zoan user) being able to create a wind force powerful enough to stop the lasers isn't even THAT impressive of a feat, honestly people weaker than marco could do it in varying different ways, it's not Kizaru's best. I'd like to lean more towards the possibility that Marco is intangible while in full zoan form from (or maybe in general), but kizaru either hit him later cuz marco was not in full zoan form, or because he was able to put haki on the non produced variant of laser. In the end, we saw marco suffered very clearly in pain (plus was pushed back, well forward cuz it was from the back) when he was proven to be hit, so it's clearly that he suffered no damage in his bird form as he approached kizaru.

I'm of the belief that he created the wind gust, and it's well within a physical powerhouse stat wise character like marco, who ALSO has a flying zoan to bolster his stats.

I'm sorry but you can't argue that the lasers would have went through marco cuz otherwise "they'd hit whitebeard", that's literally ignoring canon at that point. Marco successfully blocked the attack, in my opinion, by making the wind force by spinning extremely hard with a lot of force, which stopped the lasers from hitting him or whitebeard, then faked his injury to troll kizaru, which kizaru called out was a lie. Marco showed no sense of pain, and for your argument to be right, marco would have had half of his face blown up along with a giant chunk of the lower side of his body, he'd show pain if he lost that, if not honestly died before he could regenerate, meanwhile in comparison, why was he showing actual pain suffering and actually was displaced, when he was hit by a physically less damaging attack (getting shot thorugh the chest instead of losing a part of his head, a part of his body, etc)

Oda could have done 1000% better at portraying all this, but marco was unharmed. Marco is vastly stronger physically than people give him credit for, but his healing doesn't go quite as far as people assume. He's not the stall enemy who can't properly dish out any damage cuz he's weak that most of the fanbase pretend he is, but his healing is only a moderate advantage, and not all enveloping to his combat style, it's just a way to heal if he loses a limb after a hard fight, or heal some basic injuries, or if he gets lasered, he can regenerate from it given a few minutes. It's definitely a factor and an advantage he has over people on his combat level, but it's not like he constantly gets ripped to pieces and heals it like nothing happened within half a second.

 

[BlackLegFring]

Go re-read the scene, I'm not like saying you're stupid or anything, but it was a long time ago and you seem to be misremembering it.

Marco's flame form seems to have some sort of flowing nature to it, like he can put holes in himself and so forth like a flame burning shifts around form wise. He couldn't have had holes in him by the simple fact that there were no lasers that got through him. Also I think that first pic is fanart of a small panel, so it's not even accurate I'd say:
http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/554/2

Also a very important thing worth mentioning, "It still hurts" or "oh look, I'm hurt" was said in mocking, Kizaru literally instantly after said in the next panel: "you're lying". It was then regurgitated back to him when marco kicked at him and kizaru blocked, saying a similar line like "oh that was effective", and marco saying "you're lying" before following thorugh and ragdolling kizaru.

So no, Marco was literally mocking Kizaru's failed attempt to hurt him. Even Kizaru pointed that out. It's no different than kizaru going "oh no, it's ben beckman" while raising his arms sarcastically, or when kizaru said "you supernovas are all so scary/monsters" when hawkins transformed behind him pre timeskip. Marco is extremely close in personality to Kizaru, to the point that they were regurgitating lines back and forth to each other, except that Marco also is a healer and has the capabilities to take a situation seriously if the need arises, and he's gone through a lot over the timeskip, so he's more serious now.

I'd argue that marco is actually using logia like manipulation to pretend there was a hole in his eye, cuz if you look at him in your first pic (if we are to believe that's just a clearer zoomed in version of the pic), as you can see, he has his left eye, then in the thing after, he doesn't have it, so clearly he didn't lose his eye (if we are to believe that's not a recreation), and only shifted his eye like that to mock Kizaru.

When Marco defended whitebeard against kizaru, you see see there is a circular spinning motion with his wings, essentially marco was using his high leveled physicals + the zoan boost to create a wind force that essentially stopped the lasers from advancing, thus they were built up on themselves and formed that orb because they had nowhere to go, cuz they couldn't pierce marco's defense. When they went through marco when he was in his full zoan form, marco showed no signs of pain or displacement, which he showed when he was actually hit with them later, this implies that he was either forming holes so the lasers went through him harmlessly like katakuri was doing to replicate logia like aspects, or his full flame bird form has TRUE intangibility (from non haki attacks)

Worth noting that kizaru's mass produced named laser attack is more about quantity over quality, while kizaru's individual 1-2 laser shots are stronger, so marco (who ragdolled kizaru in base, and is a zoan user) being able to create a wind force powerful enough to stop the lasers isn't even THAT impressive of a feat, honestly people weaker than marco could do it in varying different ways, it's not Kizaru's best. I'd like to lean more towards the possibility that Marco is intangible while in full zoan form from (or maybe in general), but kizaru either hit him later cuz marco was not in full zoan form, or because he was able to put haki on the non produced variant of laser. In the end, we saw marco suffered very clearly in pain (plus was pushed back, well forward cuz it was from the back) when he was proven to be hit, so it's clearly that he suffered no damage in his bird form as he approached kizaru.

I'm of the belief that he created the wind gust, and it's well within a physical powerhouse stat wise character like marco, who ALSO has a flying zoan to bolster his stats.

I'm sorry but you can't argue that the lasers would have went through marco cuz otherwise "they'd hit whitebeard", that's literally ignoring canon at that point. Marco successfully blocked the attack, in my opinion, by making the wind force by spinning extremely hard with a lot of force, which stopped the lasers from hitting him or whitebeard, then faked his injury to troll kizaru, which kizaru called out was a lie. Marco showed no sense of pain, and for your argument to be right, marco would have had half of his face blown up along with a giant chunk of the lower side of his body, he'd show pain if he lost that, if not honestly died before he could regenerate, meanwhile in comparison, why was he showing actual pain suffering and actually was displaced, when he was hit by a physically less damaging attack (getting shot thorugh the chest instead of losing a part of his head, a part of his body, etc)

Oda could have done 1000% better at portraying all this, but marco was unharmed. Marco is vastly stronger physically than people give him credit for, but his healing doesn't go quite as far as people assume. He's not the stall enemy who can't properly dish out any damage cuz he's weak that most of the fanbase pretend he is, but his healing is only a moderate advantage, and not all enveloping to his combat style, it's just a way to heal if he loses a limb after a hard fight, or heal some basic injuries, or if he gets lasered, he can regenerate from it given a few minutes. It's definitely a factor and an advantage he has over people on his combat level, but it's not like he constantly gets ripped to pieces and heals it like nothing happened within half a second.

At this point you are leading me to believe that you are trying to ignore it on purpose. The pic you posted is the exact same pic I did. You can clearly see the holes in each wing, one in his head and one on his right side. You are simply asserting that "he didn't get hurt" then working backwards from that regardless of the evidence. You didn't even address the 2nd more obvious pic with the glaring hole in his head.

No matter which way you try to avoid it you still end up with a dilemma. If Marco was going to block the attack to protect WB, why would he create holes in himself to let them go through? If lasers cannot penetrate Marco, why do they do exactly that the 2nd and 3rd time we see him get hit? Why can Kizaru's lasers penetrate WB and everybody else but not Marco?

Again and hopefully for the last time: Marco's power is REGENERATION. You cannot regenerate if you are not first damaged. The soldiers around him cannot say he regenerated from the attack if the attack didn't damage him in the first place. It's incredibly simple but you are trying so hard to deny it for some reason I cannot fathom. Kizaru has one of the most lethal attacks in the series, probably second only to Akainu's in penetrative power.

Marco was mocking Kizaru because he could regenerate whatever he threw at him, not because he couldn't get hurt by it. It is Kizaru's mockery of Marco that is because his attack on the other hand didn't do any damage at all. Marco can regenerate, Kizaru can not.

....Okay, now I'm done since I see you will not listen to reason. You would rather pretend that Marco purposefully formed a hole in his own eye solely for the purpose of mocking Kizaru? What else could someone say to that? You do you.

 

[HopOnTheHype]

At this point you are leading me to believe that you are trying to ignore it on purpose. The pic you posted is the exact same pic I did. You can clearly see the holes in each wing, one in his head and one on his right side. You are simply asserting that "he didn't get hurt" then working backwards from that regardless of the evidence. You didn't even address the 2nd more obvious pic with the glaring hole in his head.

No matter which way you try to avoid it you still end up with a dilemma. If Marco was going to block the attack to protect WB, why would he create holes in himself to let them go through? If lasers cannot penetrate Marco, why do they do exactly that the 2nd and 3rd time we see him get hit? Why can Kizaru's lasers penetrate WB and everybody else but not Marco?

Again and hopefully for the last time: Marco's power is REGENERATION. You cannot regenerate if you are not first damaged. The soldiers around him cannot say he regenerated from the attack if the attack didn't damage him in the first place. It's incredibly simple but you are trying so hard to deny it for some reason I cannot fathom. Kizaru has one of the most lethal attacks in the series, probably second only to Akainu's in penetrative power.

Marco was mocking Kizaru because he could regenerate whatever he threw at him, not because he couldn't get hurt by it. It is Kizaru's mockery of Marco that is because his attack on the other hand didn't do any damage at all. Marco can regenerate, Kizaru can not.

....Okay, now I'm done since I see you will not listen to reason. You would rather pretend that Marco purposefully formed a hole in his own eye solely for the purpose of mocking Kizaru? What else could someone say to that? You do you.

Ignore it how, I spent like 12 paragraphs discussing it lol.

Yes, and you can clearly see that he has his left eye in your first pic, and then not one in the second pic, despite no attacking happening between them. Marco's ability allows him to have intangibility and he can morph his body around cuz he's essentially healing blue flames, much like a logia is lava, light, smoke, ice, sand, etc.

Marco wasn't creating holes to let them go thorugh him, he spun in a high speed rotation so that a wind gust would be created, creating a barrier of wind between him and the lasers, which is why it built up. If there were outright holes through him, the lasers would have kept going through him, also you can clearly see that marco is rotating in a high speed circular way.

I did address the second pic, he morphed his body from the first pic (which he had his left eye, which was also after the laser attack) , and the second pic, so that he could troll Kizaru with a "you got me" line to mock him. Essentially going "lol good job, you did it", which kizaru clearly saw through and went "you liar", equally as sarcastically. Marco created that hole in his head, he was making fun of kizaru's attack, essentially pretending it got him to showcase how much of a failed attempt it was.

The first time he blocks it cuz he seems them coming and does high speed rotations. The second time he saw them coming and was in full zoan form as the lasers went through him harmlessly without damaging him at all (Cuz intangibility) or morphing his falmes so the lasers didn't hit him. (probably the prior cuz marco probably doesn't have future sight)

The 3rd and 4th times he's "hit" do actually hit him, he didn't put up a wind barrier to stop the lasers, nor was he in full zoan at the time. So the reason the 3rd time hit him (4th was cuz of seastone), was because of one of three reasons
1) His intangibility is only in his full zoan form
2) His intangibility is less perfect than logia, he needs to actively be activating it, like a low level logia who hasn't mastered it like admirals, smoker, and crocodile, cuz of the nature of his ability (also a balancing tool from oda cuz he has zoan power boost, flight, and a healing factor too)
3) He wasn't intangible when he was in bird form, he was simply making holes form in him so that the lasers that would hit him were going through him, and he saw them coming cuz he was flying straight at the attacks.


See, I am not 100% on the why, but I've narrowed it down to the possibilities that explain my argument, your argument literally has to ignore the fact that kizaru showed NO pain on those first attacks, yet showed significant pain in the 2 later assaults.


Marco doesn't have the regeneration regeneration no mi, he has the Tori Tori no Mi: Model Phoenix. Phoenix are creatures that are made entirely of intangible flames, can fly, and are known for their regeneration/rebirth process. Marco is made of fire, a different fire that ace and sabo are made out of, and he lacks seemingly the large aoe scale that they do, but he's still a zoan user who gets a power boost from being a zoan, can fly with his devil fruit, has an intangible form, and can heal.

He's not regenerating in the the pics you're describing, he's morphing his body like flames.

Spoiler

He can morph his body freely, just like Katakuri and admirals can. There are "holes" in that flame gif I posted, but that flame isn't damaged by anything.

Yet again, if Marco was hurt, why was he neither misplaced nor hurt

Take a look at these pics:

Spoiler

The second pic is him being pushed forward from being hit from behind, and he's reeling in pain, physically struggling (and bleeding), yet we see in the first pic him actively being shot, and not showing any sign of displacement, pain (he looks bored), etc. In the first pic, he's not being hurt, int he second pic, he's being hurt. If you were right, you'd show no pain and would instantly heal up (pre seastone), and wouldn't be pushed forward like that. He showed no pain with half a face and chunks of him (by your argument) having holes in him, but he shows immense pain by simply being shot by lasers? He also bleeds for the first time? Also you can't make the argument that he's not using his devil fruit or something, he clearly is in the first panel of the second pic, but it goes away when he gets shot with seastone on. The last time he is shot is kind of irrelevant considering the fact that he has seastone on, so his devil fruit isn't even in effect (and it was from behind, and he was weakened from the seastone).

I proved my point, you haven't proved yours, if you read this and don't understand my point, you're the one not listening to reason.

Yes, Marco morphed his head to mock Kizaru. You literally posted pics PROVING that he did. The hole in his head didn't exist in the first pic, which is after the attack, then there is suddenly a hole in his head? You literally provided evidence proving me right.

He has his left eye in this pic, and this pic is AFTER the attack and BEFORE Marco mocked Kizaru. Marco can simply morph his body like flames, cuz phoenix are literally intangible flame birds. Yes, marco did pretend there was a hole through his eye to mock Kizaru.

I get that this upsets a kizaru fanboy cuz this means that kizaru didn't shit on marco and make kizaru seem omglord powerful, but I proved my point and listed off the possible reasons that it could be, while you are just going "nah kizaru da best"


Edit: This is the difference between me and one piece fans, I admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. Just yesterday I admitted I remembered a situation differently and said I was wrong, while in the face of actual evidence and reasoning for what happened in the fight, you pretend I'm hysterical. It's the equivalent of conservatives just going "I don't like that evidence, so it's wrong" when given actual research and polls proving your point. Your feelings and biases don't overcome my evidence, I've reasonably explained why the faults you claim aren't relevant via marco's ability, showings of pain, displacement, marco's circular rotation, etc, you've disproved nothing I've said, nor have you proven any of your points.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

He has his left eye in this pic, and this pic is AFTER the attack and BEFORE Marco mocked Kizaru. Marco can simply morph his body like flames, cuz phoenix are literally intangible flame birds. Yes, marco did pretend there was a hole through his eye to mock Kizaru.

I don't know if this has been addressed previously in the thread since I don't feel like reading it all, but phoenix aren't literally intangible flame birds, certainly not Marco, who in no way works like a logia and is explciitly stated by Oda to have a tangible body like any other zoan which receives real wounds but regenerates them immediately after:

D: Hello for the first time, Oda-sensei. I've read all the previous 57 volumes, and I was thinking, I don't quite understand how "Phoenix Marco"'s Zoan fruit of the "legendary beast" kind is different from Ace's "Meramera" fruit. P.N. CNY

O: Yeah, I know... I've omitted the explanation from this war arc, because I focused on the pacing and wanted to move the story forward. To explain Marco's ability just a little bit: he's Zoan, so he does have a body. But since he's got "the blue fire of revival" - the Phoenix's ability - wounds will regenerate, so attacks will not damage him (though there's a limit to the regeneration). In other words, the flames are for regeneration. These blue flames don't have the characteristics of actual fire - they don't spread and burn things, and they aren't hot. They're completely different from Ace's flames. I might touch on this in the main story at some point, so I'll leave it at this for now.

So far, the canon is that Marco's phoenix form has a tangible body like any other Tori Tori model (or zoan, for the matter) that can be hurt by any mean but will recover from the wound thanks to the flames covering it.

 

[HopOnTheHype]

I don't know if this has been addressed previously in the thread since I don't feel like reading it all, but phoenix aren't literally intangible flame birds, certainly not Marco, who in no way works like a logia and is explciitly stated by Oda to have a tangible body like any other zoan which receives real wounds but regenerates them immediately after:

D: Hello for the first time, Oda-sensei. I've read all the previous 57 volumes, and I was thinking, I don't quite understand how "Phoenix Marco"'s Zoan fruit of the "legendary beast" kind is different from Ace's "Meramera" fruit. P.N. CNY

O: Yeah, I know... I've omitted the explanation from this war arc, because I focused on the pacing and wanted to move the story forward. To explain Marco's ability just a little bit: he's Zoan, so he does have a body. But since he's got "the blue fire of revival" - the Phoenix's ability - wounds will regenerate, so attacks will not damage him (though there's a limit to the regeneration). In other words, the flames are for regeneration. These blue flames don't have the characteristics of actual fire - they don't spread and burn things, and they aren't hot. They're completely different from Ace's flames. I might touch on this in the main story at some point, so I'll leave it at this for now.

So far, the canon is that Marco's phoenix form has a tangible body like any other Tori Tori model (or zoan, for the matter) that can be hurt by any mean but will recover from the wound thanks to the flames covering it.

Alright, then that really only changes the second part, in that he is making holes in himself to have the lasers go through him harmlessly. The first thing was stopped by him speedily rotating his wings and body so that a wind gust stopped himself from being hurt at all (he had his eye in the guys first pic, and didn't have it in the second despite the attack being done in the first), so yeah, he did morph his eye to pretend he didn't have it.

He I guess isn't intangible (unless he simply was talking about busoshoku and stuff which wasn't fully explained), but he can morph his body around like katakuri (who also can be hit and isn't intangible), OR, maybe he just has to actively being making himself intangible unlike logia. He objectively wasn't hurt as he casually flew towards kizaru in full phoenix form. It could also be the fact that marco is only intangible in his full zoan form. He wasn't being hurt by the lasers going through him in his full zoan form, and he used his physicals to create a wind barrier that stopped the lasers in the first attack. Also his eye hole was objectively not from the attack, but he morphed his body.


So I guess his devil fruit has katakuri like aspects to it in that he can morph himself how he wants.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

Alright, then that really only changes the second part, in that he is making holes in himself to have the lasers go through him harmlessly. The first thing was stopped by him speedily rotating his wings and body so that a wind gust stopped himself from being hurt at all (he had his eye in the guys first pic, and didn't have it in the second despite the attack being done in the first), so yeah, he did morph his eye to pretend he didn't have it.

He I guess isn't intangible (unless he simply was talking about busoshoku and stuff which wasn't fully explained), but he can morph his body around like katakuri (who also can be hit and isn't intangible), OR, maybe he just has to actively being making himself intangible unlike logia. He objectively wasn't hurt as he casually flew towards kizaru in full phoenix form. It could also be the fact that marco is only intangible in his full zoan form. He wasn't being hurt by the lasers going through him in his full zoan form, and he used his physicals to create a wind barrier that stopped the lasers in the first attack. Also his eye hole was objectively not from the attack, but he morphed his body.


So I guess his devil fruit has katakuri like aspects to it in that he can morph himself how he wants.

But how could he morph his body around if his body is confirmed to be a tangible piece of bird flesh? Katakuri can do that because in practice he works like a logia by default, hence his label of special paramecia, but in this context Marco's fruit was explained explicitly in contrast with logia powers.

He's being perforated by those lasers as he flies towards Kizaru but he immediately regenerates with the flames, that's the only explanation that fits not only the events and comments by the marines, but Oda's exposition on how his fruit works. Otherwise he wouldn't be a phoenix but a bunch of flames with the shape of a bird.

 

[HopOnTheHype]

But how could he morph his body around if his body is confirmed to be a tangible piece of bird flesh? Katakuri can do that because in practice he works like a logia by default, hence his label of special paramecia, but in this context Marco's fruit was explained explicitly in contrast with logia powers.

He's being perforated by those lasers as he flies towards Kizaru but he immediately regenerates with the flames, that's the only explanation that fits not only the events and comments by the marines, but Oda's exposition on how his fruit works. Otherwise he wouldn't be a phoenix but a bunch of flames with the shape of a bird.

Because he's hittable, but can still morph himself, just like how katakuri is still can be hit, and still has a form, but can morph his body.

I've already disproved the "marco auto heals" bs tbh. Also I've already explained what actually does make sense. Marco looks bored as the lasers go through him, no showcase of pain.

A phoenix is a bird that is made up of flames, that has healing/regeneration factor. A phoenix is literally a flame bird that reincarnates.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

Because he's hittable, but can still morph himself, just like how katakuri is still can be hit, and still has a form, but can morph his body.

I've already disproved the "marco auto heals" bs tbh. Also I've already explained what actually does make sense. Marco looks bored as the lasers go through him, no showcase of pain.

A phoenix is a bird that is made up of flames, that has healing/regeneration factor. A phoenix is literally a flame bird that reincarnates.

Your first line makes no sense. Katakuri can morph himself and is still hittable in the same way any logia can morph themselves and still be hittable with armament haki. Marco, on the other hand, is explicitly explained by distinguishing him from these mechanics since he's a zoan and always has a flesh body unlike logias. Nothing supports that he can morph himself, let alone like Katakuri (who's a logia in practice).

I don't think you've disproven anything, to be fair. If lasers just went through him, his fruit would be working exactly like a logia body, but this is stated by Oda to not be the case. He doesn't showcase pain anywhere during his first clash against Kizaru yet the information we're given is that he can recover from attacks, so he's clearly taking them and regenerating the wounds. In fact, the reader who makes that SBS question says that they don't understand how Marco's fruit works in spite of having read all previous 57 volumes, so odds are they're a volume reader and the only time they saw the Tori Tori in action were chapters 553 and 554; in other words, the ability that is addressed as a body that takes wounds but regenerates them and doesn't work like a logia at all is, precisely, the one we see as Marco eats lasers from Kizaru.

So it's pretty likely that Marco's fruit works nothing like a logia or Katakuri's and he's wounded by all of those lasers only to recover immediately after with his blue flames. Otherwise the comments during those chapters and Oda's own explanations about his zoan to a fan who read all 57 previous volumes (which only included Marco's first performance) and needed clarification. This clarification can't be "well, so I explicitly stated that the Tori Tori: model Phoenix doesn't work like a logia, but guess what —it can work as a logia with an intangible body").

A phoenix isn't necessarily made of flames, especially not in the context of Japanese popular media and Marco's inspiration. And in case you feel like it, don't try to lecture me on what a phoenix is or isn't because I'm well aware of it, I can assure you.

 

[kom5]

Yes, I thought that was pretty clear. The worst damage Marco has taken was from the Yasakani no Magatama that he blocked for Whitebeard which turned him into swiss cheese. Without his regeneration he would have simply died. The 2 lasers he took before he was cuffed would have temporarily taken him out just as the 2 lasers he took after he was cuffed did.

The only thing Garp did was knock him out of the sky. Of course an attack that would have killed him without his regeneration is greater than that.

I think the newest chapter disproves you re read it and rethink your logic

 

[BlackLegFring]

I think the newest chapter disproves you re read it and rethink your logic

How exactly? What is supposed to have changed?

 

[kom5]

How exactly? What is supposed to have changed?

That he didnt even take damage from YKM and no Garps punch wouldnt kill him

 

[HopOnTheHype]

That he didnt even take damage from YKM and no Garps punch wouldnt kill him

He did take damage though, there were shake lines. When he was dealing with kizaru, he didn't take damage, but Queen caught him off guard cuz the gun was hidden in his mouth, so he wasn't able to morph his body around the attack.

Post automatically merged: Dec 19, 2020

Your first line makes no sense. Katakuri can morph himself and is still hittable in the same way any logia can morph themselves and still be hittable with armament haki. Marco, on the other hand, is explicitly explained by distinguishing him from these mechanics since he's a zoan and always has a flesh body unlike logias. Nothing supports that he can morph himself, let alone like Katakuri (who's a logia in practice).

I don't think you've disproven anything, to be fair. If lasers just went through him, his fruit would be working exactly like a logia body, but this is stated by Oda to not be the case. He doesn't showcase pain anywhere during his first clash against Kizaru yet the information we're given is that he can recover from attacks, so he's clearly taking them and regenerating the wounds. In fact, the reader who makes that SBS question says that they don't understand how Marco's fruit works in spite of having read all previous 57 volumes, so odds are they're a volume reader and the only time they saw the Tori Tori in action were chapters 553 and 554; in other words, the ability that is addressed as a body that takes wounds but regenerates them and doesn't work like a logia at all is, precisely, the one we see as Marco eats lasers from Kizaru.

So it's pretty likely that Marco's fruit works nothing like a logia or Katakuri's and he's wounded by all of those lasers only to recover immediately after with his blue flames. Otherwise the comments during those chapters and Oda's own explanations about his zoan to a fan who read all 57 previous volumes (which only included Marco's first performance) and needed clarification. This clarification can't be "well, so I explicitly stated that the Tori Tori: model Phoenix doesn't work like a logia, but guess what —it can work as a logia with an intangible body").

A phoenix isn't necessarily made of flames, especially not in the context of Japanese popular media and Marco's inspiration. And in case you feel like it, don't try to lecture me on what a phoenix is or isn't because I'm well aware of it, I can assure you.

You're literally the only person in the one piece community who doesn't know how katakuri's fruit functions. Katakuri doesn't have logia intangibility, he can morph his body, that mixed with future sight allows him to make holes in himself even when caught off guard a lot of the time, so that your fist goes through a hole and not through him, if you make contact with katakuri, you do damage, but more morphs himself like advanced kami-e using his devil fruit, so that you never make contact with him.

A phoenix isn't necessarily made of flames, especially not in the context of Japanese popular media and Marco's inspiration. And in case you feel like it, don't try to lecture me on what a phoenix is or isn't because I'm well aware of it, I can assure you.[/QUOTE]
You're literally the only person in the one piece community who doesn't know how katakuri's fruit functions. Katakuri doesn't have logia intangibility, he can morph his body, that mixed with future sight allows him to make holes in himself even when caught off guard a lot of the time, so that your fist goes through a hole and not through him, if you make contact with katakuri, you do damage, but more morphs himself like advanced kami-e using his devil fruit, so that you never make contact with him.

The point is this: When kizaru shoots a laser at him, marco morphs his body so that a hole is where the attack would hit, thus the attack goes through him.

The point is this: When kizaru shoots a laser at him, marco morphs his body so that a hole is where the attack would hit, thus the attack goes through him.

Spoiler

In the second to last picture (using japanese reading order), you see Marco
1) Not show any physical pain or get displaced
2) Morph his flames os that there are holes where the lasers would hit. There would be two lasers that would have hit him normally, one was the one at the top right of that small picture, the other is more of a body shot to the left. YOu can see in both cases, the flames curl AROUND those spots, holes forming up that are bigger than the lasers (they aren't piercing)

The point is that they don't just go through him harmlessly, if they hit him, they hit him, but he is able to morph his body to avoid lasers so that they never DO hit him, just like with katakuri.

He can recover from attacks, but when he's hit by attacks, he is pushed back and shows pain, and his healing doesn't go AS FAR as people claim, but he also has other aspects of his devil fruit (morphing and just his impressive raw stats, both naturally and with zoan boost) that everyone is underestimating.

He wasn't hurt from the first clash with kizaru is the point. He was spinning so fast (you see his wings spinning), that there was a wind barrier that stopped the lasers from advancing, then they piled up on top of each other, instead of going through him like they normally would (since he couldn't make holes to avoid the attack cuz he had to protect whitebeard, he had to stop the attack with his impressive zoan physical stats, ie the wind wall)

Marco does have regeneration, but he wasn't using them in those instances.

Katakuri's devil fruit is not logia either. Both marco and katakuri can morph their body, katakuri has future sight though so he can do it even when someone tries to cheap shot him cuz he knows the attack is coming, while marco was hit by kizaru's cheap shots because he didn't have future sight so couldn't form holes in him to avoid the attacks.

Marco's devil fruit doesn't give him intangibility, he just can morph himself so that he's never hit in the first place.

 

[BlackLegFring]

That he didnt even take damage from YKM and no Garps punch wouldnt kill him

That's the other guy you should be responding to, not me. I'm the one that spent time fruitlessly trying to show him that Marco did indeed take damage from YKM.

 

[kom5]

He did take damage though, there were shake lines. When he was dealing with kizaru, he didn't take damage, but Queen caught him off guard cuz the gun was hidden in his mouth, so he wasn't able to morph his body around the attack.

Nope he didnt his head was pierced and he didnt the shaking was prob him holding Zoro and flying while not losing focusing but he didnt felt a thing

That's the other guy you should be responding to, not me. I'm the one that spent time fruitlessly trying to show him that Marco did indeed take damage from YKM.

Yeeeeah I'm sorry even though they would read it they wouldnt respond its a pity

 

[HopOnTheHype]

Nope he didnt his head was pierced and he didnt the shaking was prob him holding Zoro and flying while not losing focusing but he didnt felt a thing

Yeeeeah I'm sorry even though they would read it they wouldnt respond its a pity

Are you saying the guy who kicked kizaru with the power of a kong gun+ is struggling to hold onto zoro, a guy who probably weighs like 160-180 pounds? No one in one piece but usopp would struggle to carry him tbh.

 

[Luffy bin Dragon]

Are you saying the guy who kicked kizaru with the power of a kong gun+ is struggling to hold onto zoro, a guy who probably weighs like 160-180 pounds? No one in one piece but usopp would struggle to carry him tbh.

Stop disrespecting Usopp

 

[kom5]

Are you saying the guy who kicked kizaru with the power of a kong gun+ is struggling to hold onto zoro, a guy who probably weighs like 160-180 pounds? No one in one piece but usopp would struggle to carry him tbh.

No thats not struggling he also carried Neko and Izo
the vibration is prob due the guns