Chapter Discussion Is Killer underrated?

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
You confirm yourself as a mental gymnastic specialist Nik-chan, as always :myman:
You were hoping for Zoro to be the only one with the captains on the roof but Killer is there and that's hurting you, but there's no reason for that. It's not Zoro's descent, it's Killer's rise
:cheers:
You prove yourself as a liar. :myman:Because you cannot prove the headcanon you just said, lol.
There is only a rise of the dragonslayer and it's going to demand more copium so prepare ahead. :cheers:
Twice your age, son?
 

Roronoa-sama

Magic Sword, Magic Swordsman, and Can Cut Anything
He is in Zoro's tier, slightly weaker than him since Zoro is a MC and he not.
So if people put him below that, then yes he was being underestimated.

He is not going to fight till the end against Kaido anyway, some skirmish alongside Zoro and the captains and they (vicecaptains) would fight against King and/or Jack.
Drake and Apoo are still above them (VC) for now, but below the Captains.
Bege ofc is stronger than them as well, overall.
Bonney no, but it depends on her DF and how exactly works. She might be a Sugar with good physical stats and that would be broken as hell.
:arnoling:
Post automatically merged:

Sure, Oda bring Marco here to face off against a weaker rival lul.
zoro will fight agaisnt pica level again:gokulaugh::gokulaugh::gokulaugh:
 
You prove yourself as a liar. :myman:Because you cannot prove the headcanon you just said, lol.
There is only a rise of the dragonslayer and it's going to demand more copium so prepare ahead. :cheers:

Twice your age, son?
Already proved them a lot of times even to you if I'm not wrong, so the only liar here is you :myman:

As for this dragonslayer thing, yeah, they could pull a great fan fiction out of it :milaugh:
 
He is in Zoro's tier, slightly weaker than him since Zoro is a MC and he not.
So if people put him below that, then yes he was being underestimated.

He is not going to fight till the end against Kaido anyway, some skirmish alongside Zoro and the captains and they (vicecaptains) would fight against King and/or Jack.
Drake and Apoo are still above them (VC) for now, but below the Captains.
Bege ofc is stronger than them as well, overall.
Bonney no, but it depends on her DF and how exactly works. She might be a Sugar with good physical stats and that would be broken as hell.
Lol
 
Judging by the nickname should be 33 but I really hope for him to not be the truth, otherwise... :jay-he:
You talk too much for people who wank a character who just appeared after being useless the whole time and striking L ...
Zoro one shotted killer. Kidd failed to defeat Appo, Zoro defeated Apoo. Manga facts.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
Not what you expected, eh? :cheers:
Already proved them a lot of times even to you if I'm not wrong, so the only liar here is you :myman:

As for this dragonslayer thing, yeah, they could pull a great fan fiction out of it :milaugh:
No, you never proved anything because I said that Emperors would be facing the entire Supernova lineup. Nice try tho.:suresure:
Yeah, hope that it doesnt happen just like you hoped Zoro wont be facing the Emperors. :myman:
Imagine thinking that the strongest combatant on the good side wont fight strongest enemies... Bruh...
 
So your answer is 'I don't know, but must be this cause I don't like the other way :lusalty:'

I bring you manga and you bring me 'must be this way' alright I'm outta here :gokulaugh::gokulaugh::gokulaugh:


Lol imagine going down with a 'no named attack' as you call it then and against a nerfed opponent :milaugh: really top tier-like :vistalaugh:
You can ask Oda that.

Seeing how you ignored the facts pointed out, it would seem you agree
Geo they have the audacity to claim some shit without proofs :vistalaugh::vistalaugh:
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured, this has very little to back it up. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:


Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:



We Would Have Been Told That Killer's Combat Ability was Not at Its Best
This is based on the fact that when characters have their combat ability significantly hindered, we are often told so. This is I think the stronger rebuttal for me. The previous counterargument relies on the belief that we shouldn't expect Killer to be substantially stronger than Hawkins or be able to keep up with YC 3/2s while significantly restrained. I think that is a very sensible belief, but it does rely on headcanon powerscaling and it wouldn't be convincing to people who disagree with the headcanon powerscaling (as sensible as it may be). This counterargument is much more objective. The prior likelihood of Oda indicating in some form or another that someone has been significantly weakened is very high.

Specific Examples
Here are some examples to demonstrate it:

Zoro vs Cabaji
Buggy had previously stabbed Zoro, and the wounds he received had been hindering him. He went on to stab himself to further restrain his combat ability. Cabaji commented that his wounds were grievous and would be an acceptable excuse to explain Zoro's loss.

Zoro vs the Nyaban Brothers
Zoro only had one sword at the time and this severely hindered his combat ability. He repeatedly wished he had more swords, and when he finally recovered his remaining two swords, he hyped up the power of his Santoryu style.

Zoro at Arlong Park
Zoro was very weakened due to the damage he took from Mihawk. He's shown sweating profusely and short of breath, and ends up falling down a few times during his battle with Hachi. That he has a fever is mentioned several times and we are outright told that the his wounds were too deep and would have killed normal people or at least crippled them for half a year. Arlong questions how he can even stand.

Zoro at the Davy Back Fight
Zoro didn't have access to his swords. Sanji commented that a swordsman without his swords was "pathetic". If an analogy is to be made between Killer with scythes and Zoro without his swords, then something like the above is what I would expect.

Strawhats at Water Seven
The Strawhats had previously been unable to perform at their best as they were emotionally compromised due to Robin's betrayal. Nami mentioned this and that they were now much stronger because they were fighting to save Robin.

Zoro against Ryuma
Zoro only had two swords. He mentioned that he was uncomfortable without his third sword, and lamented being unable to show it to Ryuma. Ryuma himself expressed the desire to see Zoro's Santoryu and commended him for his strength.

Ryuma vs Zoro
Ryuma was fighting with Brook's shadow, and we are told that he was even stronger in his prime, with Ryuma lamenting his defeat and Zoro offering to pretend the fight never happened.

Zoro at Sabaody
Zoro was still suffering from taking Luffy's pain. That his injuries affected him was noted by other Strawhats, Zoro and even Borsalino.

Whitebeard at Marineford
Whitebeard at Marineford had been substantially weakened due to age and illness. His decline was noted by many people: Mihawk, Crocodile, Marco, Sakazuki, Blackbeard and even Whitebeard himself.

Sanji at Punk Hazard
Sanji's body suffered damage while Nami was in possession of it and this was noted by Sanji near immediately.

Smoker vs Vergo
Smoker wasn't fighting at his best against Vergo as he was trying to recover Law's heart. During the fight, Vergo commented that Smoker was fighting stupidly, and after Smoker returned Law's heart Law mentioned that Smoker wouldn't allow himself to be indebted to Pirates.

Doflamingo vs Luffy
Doflamingo had been weakened by Law's Gamma Knife and this was noted by Luffy.

Luffy vs Doflamingo
Luffy had taken some damage in his prior fights with Bellamy and co, and Doffy mentioned it.

Luffy vs Sanji
Luffy had taken a lot of damage in his prior fight with Cracker and Nami mentioned this.

Luffy vs Katakuri
When Luffy was unable to face Katakuri because he could not use haki, he mentioned it of his own accord.

Luffy at Udon
Luffy had been weakened due to the Kairouseki handcuffs.


The above list is by no means exhaustive (for one there's a hard image limit of 40 images and preparing all the panels is a chore). For another trying to reread all 981 chapters of One Piece to identify all instances of characters being weakened or not fighting at their best is a highly nontrivial task. As space permits though, I would add other examples I learn of to this post.

How many instances do we have of characters being significantly hindered (combat ability wise) and Oda not having inidicated or mentioned it in some form (either by the character, by spectators or by their opponents)? The only one that comes to mind as a potential counterexample is Charlotte Linlin, but I didn't pay attention to WCI (so it may have been brought up, and it's not clear how much of it is her truly being weakened and how much of it is Oda clowning on her, gag scenes, plot induced stupidity or plot conveniences). At any rate Oda has been sufficiently poor in his handling Big Mom that I usually refrain from powerscaling her.

For those who believe there hasn't been opportunities to do this, here are some examples of how Killer been weakened due to lacking his main weapons could have been mentioned:
  • Zoro could have noted that Killer's movements weren't that fluid as if he was unaccustomed to his weapons.
    • Zoro did note that Killer is tough so it would have been in character for him to do so. Instead Oda chose to have Zoro comment on Killer's toughness to show us that Killer was strong.
  • Gyukimaru could have noted this and mentioned it instead. He was observing the fight and was clearly a weapons master of high skill.
  • Killer could have wished for his original weapons while he was fighting Zoro.
  • When he met Kidd in Udon and was crying over his failure he could have cursed the lack of his original weapons. His failure would have been attributed to the weapons he had available if they were indeed the cause.

At this point you get the idea. Oda had opportunities to let us know that Killer was significantly weakened. Ample opportunity (and he could have invented more if needed, he's the author!), and he did not tell us so (in constrast we've already been told that Zoro is not at his best when he lacks three swords). If Killer was weakened, this would be incredibly surprising. When characters are significantly weakened, Oda goes out of his way to tell us so. There was no need to tell us that:
  • The Kairouseki handcuffs in Udon weakened Luffy.
    • We're not idiots, we know that devil fruit users are weakened by Kairouseki.
  • Doflamingo was in decline after Gamma Knife
    • Of course getting your organs shredded and merely mitigating the damage with first aid weakens you.
  • WB was in decline at Marineford
    • We saw him on Life Support not long before and he was stabbed through his chest.
  • Mihawk's slash nerfed Zoro at Arlong Park
    • Again, we're not idiots, the damage Zoro took from Mihawk was pretty bad.

I could go on, but you get the point. Even when he really does not need to, Oda goes out of his way to tell us that characters have been significantly weakened. Characters being weakened and Oda not telling us is very rare (barring the dubious Linlin example I mentioned earlier, I am not aware of any other instances). Our prior probability that a character would have been significantly weakened and Oda would show zero indication of it should be very low.
[/spoiler]




At this point, "Killer's combat ability was reduced because he was lacking his main weapons" is nothing but headcanon, and it isn't just headcanon, it's headcanon that is heavily contradicted by the manga.

Reiterating how appealing the headcanon is from your priors does not get around the fact that the manga doesn't back the headcanon up and flat out contradicts it.
and i will support this with a single panel destroying all this shit and oda showed it sanji was blackmailed by big mom if he didn't get married to her daughter Zeff would die and he had to leave the crew forever and you know what luffy came to bring him out but sanji didn't want that because he was blackmailed by them to protect zeff and his crew themself so he worked under big mom / his father and fought luffy on panel and tried the best of his ability and he said this shit on panel and him and after that he appeared crying the same shit killer did he got blackmailed to protect his crew he tried his best to do that and he cried after that and oda highlighted Killer and Kid will and if someone like killer couldn't do something sanji did he can get the fk out of supernovas and have sanji replacing him then .

 
@Aknolagon @nik87 @Zowo they have the audacity to claim some shit without proofs :vistalaugh::vistalaugh:
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured, this has very little to back it up. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:


Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:



We Would Have Been Told That Killer's Combat Ability was Not at Its Best
This is based on the fact that when characters have their combat ability significantly hindered, we are often told so. This is I think the stronger rebuttal for me. The previous counterargument relies on the belief that we shouldn't expect Killer to be substantially stronger than Hawkins or be able to keep up with YC 3/2s while significantly restrained. I think that is a very sensible belief, but it does rely on headcanon powerscaling and it wouldn't be convincing to people who disagree with the headcanon powerscaling (as sensible as it may be). This counterargument is much more objective. The prior likelihood of Oda indicating in some form or another that someone has been significantly weakened is very high.

Specific Examples
Here are some examples to demonstrate it:

Zoro vs Cabaji
Buggy had previously stabbed Zoro, and the wounds he received had been hindering him. He went on to stab himself to further restrain his combat ability. Cabaji commented that his wounds were grievous and would be an acceptable excuse to explain Zoro's loss.

Zoro vs the Nyaban Brothers
Zoro only had one sword at the time and this severely hindered his combat ability. He repeatedly wished he had more swords, and when he finally recovered his remaining two swords, he hyped up the power of his Santoryu style.

Zoro at Arlong Park
Zoro was very weakened due to the damage he took from Mihawk. He's shown sweating profusely and short of breath, and ends up falling down a few times during his battle with Hachi. That he has a fever is mentioned several times and we are outright told that the his wounds were too deep and would have killed normal people or at least crippled them for half a year. Arlong questions how he can even stand.

Zoro at the Davy Back Fight
Zoro didn't have access to his swords. Sanji commented that a swordsman without his swords was "pathetic". If an analogy is to be made between Killer with scythes and Zoro without his swords, then something like the above is what I would expect.

Strawhats at Water Seven
The Strawhats had previously been unable to perform at their best as they were emotionally compromised due to Robin's betrayal. Nami mentioned this and that they were now much stronger because they were fighting to save Robin.

Zoro against Ryuma
Zoro only had two swords. He mentioned that he was uncomfortable without his third sword, and lamented being unable to show it to Ryuma. Ryuma himself expressed the desire to see Zoro's Santoryu and commended him for his strength.

Ryuma vs Zoro
Ryuma was fighting with Brook's shadow, and we are told that he was even stronger in his prime, with Ryuma lamenting his defeat and Zoro offering to pretend the fight never happened.

Zoro at Sabaody
Zoro was still suffering from taking Luffy's pain. That his injuries affected him was noted by other Strawhats, Zoro and even Borsalino.

Whitebeard at Marineford
Whitebeard at Marineford had been substantially weakened due to age and illness. His decline was noted by many people: Mihawk, Crocodile, Marco, Sakazuki, Blackbeard and even Whitebeard himself.

Sanji at Punk Hazard
Sanji's body suffered damage while Nami was in possession of it and this was noted by Sanji near immediately.

Smoker vs Vergo
Smoker wasn't fighting at his best against Vergo as he was trying to recover Law's heart. During the fight, Vergo commented that Smoker was fighting stupidly, and after Smoker returned Law's heart Law mentioned that Smoker wouldn't allow himself to be indebted to Pirates.

Doflamingo vs Luffy
Doflamingo had been weakened by Law's Gamma Knife and this was noted by Luffy.

Luffy vs Doflamingo
Luffy had taken some damage in his prior fights with Bellamy and co, and Doffy mentioned it.

Luffy vs Sanji
Luffy had taken a lot of damage in his prior fight with Cracker and Nami mentioned this.

Luffy vs Katakuri
When Luffy was unable to face Katakuri because he could not use haki, he mentioned it of his own accord.

Luffy at Udon
Luffy had been weakened due to the Kairouseki handcuffs.


The above list is by no means exhaustive (for one there's a hard image limit of 40 images and preparing all the panels is a chore). For another trying to reread all 981 chapters of One Piece to identify all instances of characters being weakened or not fighting at their best is a highly nontrivial task. As space permits though, I would add other examples I learn of to this post.

How many instances do we have of characters being significantly hindered (combat ability wise) and Oda not having inidicated or mentioned it in some form (either by the character, by spectators or by their opponents)? The only one that comes to mind as a potential counterexample is Charlotte Linlin, but I didn't pay attention to WCI (so it may have been brought up, and it's not clear how much of it is her truly being weakened and how much of it is Oda clowning on her, gag scenes, plot induced stupidity or plot conveniences). At any rate Oda has been sufficiently poor in his handling Big Mom that I usually refrain from powerscaling her.

For those who believe there hasn't been opportunities to do this, here are some examples of how Killer been weakened due to lacking his main weapons could have been mentioned:
  • Zoro could have noted that Killer's movements weren't that fluid as if he was unaccustomed to his weapons.
    • Zoro did note that Killer is tough so it would have been in character for him to do so. Instead Oda chose to have Zoro comment on Killer's toughness to show us that Killer was strong.
  • Gyukimaru could have noted this and mentioned it instead. He was observing the fight and was clearly a weapons master of high skill.
  • Killer could have wished for his original weapons while he was fighting Zoro.
  • When he met Kidd in Udon and was crying over his failure he could have cursed the lack of his original weapons. His failure would have been attributed to the weapons he had available if they were indeed the cause.

At this point you get the idea. Oda had opportunities to let us know that Killer was significantly weakened. Ample opportunity (and he could have invented more if needed, he's the author!), and he did not tell us so (in constrast we've already been told that Zoro is not at his best when he lacks three swords). If Killer was weakened, this would be incredibly surprising. When characters are significantly weakened, Oda goes out of his way to tell us so. There was no need to tell us that:
  • The Kairouseki handcuffs in Udon weakened Luffy.
    • We're not idiots, we know that devil fruit users are weakened by Kairouseki.
  • Doflamingo was in decline after Gamma Knife
    • Of course getting your organs shredded and merely mitigating the damage with first aid weakens you.
  • WB was in decline at Marineford
    • We saw him on Life Support not long before and he was stabbed through his chest.
  • Mihawk's slash nerfed Zoro at Arlong Park
    • Again, we're not idiots, the damage Zoro took from Mihawk was pretty bad.

I could go on, but you get the point. Even when he really does not need to, Oda goes out of his way to tell us that characters have been significantly weakened. Characters being weakened and Oda not telling us is very rare (barring the dubious Linlin example I mentioned earlier, I am not aware of any other instances). Our prior probability that a character would have been significantly weakened and Oda would show zero indication of it should be very low.
[/spoiler]




At this point, "Killer's combat ability was reduced because he was lacking his main weapons" is nothing but headcanon, and it isn't just headcanon, it's headcanon that is heavily contradicted by the manga.

Reiterating how appealing the headcanon is from your priors does not get around the fact that the manga doesn't back the headcanon up and flat out contradicts it.
and i will support this with a single panel destroying all this shit and oda showed it sanji was blackmailed by big mom if he didn't get married to her daughter Zeff would die and he had to leave the crew forever and you know what luffy came to bring him out but sanji didn't want that because he was blackmailed by them to protect zeff and his crew themself so he worked under big mom / his father and fought luffy on panel and tried the best of his ability and he said this shit on panel and him and after that he appeared crying the same shit killer did he got blackmailed to protect his crew he tried his best to do that and he cried after that and oda highlighted Killer and Kid will and if someone like killer couldn't do something sanji did he can get the fk out of supernovas and have sanji replacing him then .

 
Not what you expected, eh? :cheers:

No, you never proved anything because I said that Emperors would be facing the entire Supernova lineup. Nice try tho.:suresure:
Yeah, hope that it doesnt happen just like you hoped Zoro wont be facing the Emperors. :myman:
Imagine thinking that the strongest combatant on the good side wont fight strongest enemies... Bruh...
Never been one of those who didn't like the idea of Zoro on the roof, the opposite.
I'm sure Zoro will reopen the wound and I've always affirmed it, but I find the decapitation thing hilarious. That simple.
My disrespect against Zoro comes cause of your disrespect towards other characters. Again, that simple :kayneshrug:

Difference between you and me is that I don't daydream
 
Killer didn't have to be at his best when fighting Zoro. His whole crew was in a shitty situation and being a tricked out pleasure wasn't the healthiest head space. Only after that was the weapon thing. He was obviously being compared to two sword Zoro in that sense.

The finish of the fight showed him behind Zoro, but that doesn't say much. Zoro would have had a respectable showing here even without the actual sword Enma (it's maybe 80% the man and 20% the sword) but now he's stronger.

Each of the characters presented have had a chance to transform the pain they have felt in this arc. Not just Straw Hats. Look at Usopp and Nami who will only showcase something after being pulped. Look at Sanji who's pretty much coasted emotionally and is now locked up for his complacency. Now look at Kinemon and the Zou Kings. Imagine Law and Kidd not showing off. Killer... he's come back from being broken down mentally and physically. He's the least of the five but when the four are already strong enough to look like a decent two on one for each emperor, the fifth man is staged to look like he puts them over. Well, before Oda starts the process of making them underdogs again.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
Never been one of those who didn't like the idea of Zoro on the roof, the opposite.
I'm sure Zoro will reopen the wound and I've always affirmed it, but I find the decapitation thing hilarious. That simple.
My disrespect against Zoro comes cause of your disrespect towards other characters. Again, that simple :kayneshrug:
Difference between you and me is that I don't daydream
Judging too early, as usual. Once Wano is over, then you will see who was daydreaming and who not. :cheers:
Betting against Zoro has never been wise whether you hate him or not, after all, the author himself said not to speak ill of Zoro. :finally:
 
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