Character Discussion "SaNjI bEtRaYeD LuFfY"
- Thread starter Chrono
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Again, if Sanji waited..... Kamabaka and Baratie would be attacked in a few days. Pekoms says that Sanji in a few days would get a head of loved one in a box if he didnt go. With Nami then saying it made sense that Sanji had no option but to leave. Stop being ignorant Oda made clear as day that Sanji had to leave with them immediately.
Yh but the Queen Mama chanter had a headstart, how tf would Pekoms ever catch up to it. And how would that help Sanji in anyway. I thought youd come up with a way of Pekoms persuading Big Mom to not come after Sanji, but you do realise your dumb plan will have Big Mom go after Baratie and Kamabaka. There are already witnesses like Capone whos seen everything. Good luck to Pekoms trying to lie.
They did well in both scenarios because of plot. Take away plot, and SHs wouldve been dead multiple times in WCI. They were constantly up against opponents they couldnt handle at all. However in Ennies Lobby's case, the so called Buster Call never even came close to them.
Fine, lets compare the 2 situations. Even if we were to say the threat lvl was relatively same, you would also need to take into account that Ennies \lobby, had the full crew wanting to fight to keep Robin in the crew. Whereas WCI, only has half the crew not wanting to fight and just wanting to escape. The SHs had no interest in properly fighting Big Mom's crew yet, as they havent prepared for it yet. However you expect them to properly engage.
And yes Sanji's character is highly important whether you like it or not. Being pissed that Sanji isnt acting like Ennie Lobby Sanji, is retarded since at that point Robin was the one in danger not him. Sanji is a self sacrificial person, most SHs are.....he would obviously act different for another person being danger.
What Sanji's decision in WCI had only one person who was getting in danger, and that was only himself. For sacrificing himself, he was protecting the SHs, Baratie and Kamabaka. Whereas for Robin sacrificing herself, she was only protecting the SHs. The entire point of Sanji doing everything in WCI was because Zeff and the Baratie were constantly being threatened. FFS, he even tried to fight back until the Vins kept on bringing up Zeff potentially getting killed.
Now lets say Post Timeskip Robin was put in Sanji's position. Im betting you she puts past all her development of trusting in Luffy, if Ohara ( if it was still alive) was in danger. Shed comply and try to sacrifice herself again.
So dont go around trying to compare situations, Sanji was in a far worse position because the lives of innocent people were on the line. Whereas for Robin, she just has to accept help from people who are already fighitng for her.
Why tf did Zoro betray Sanji
Yh but the Queen Mama chanter had a headstart, how tf would Pekoms ever catch up to it. And how would that help Sanji in anyway. I thought youd come up with a way of Pekoms persuading Big Mom to not come after Sanji, but you do realise your dumb plan will have Big Mom go after Baratie and Kamabaka. There are already witnesses like Capone whos seen everything. Good luck to Pekoms trying to lie.
They did well in both scenarios because of plot. Take away plot, and SHs wouldve been dead multiple times in WCI. They were constantly up against opponents they couldnt handle at all. However in Ennies Lobby's case, the so called Buster Call never even came close to them.
Fine, lets compare the 2 situations. Even if we were to say the threat lvl was relatively same, you would also need to take into account that Ennies \lobby, had the full crew wanting to fight to keep Robin in the crew. Whereas WCI, only has half the crew not wanting to fight and just wanting to escape. The SHs had no interest in properly fighting Big Mom's crew yet, as they havent prepared for it yet. However you expect them to properly engage.
And yes Sanji's character is highly important whether you like it or not. Being pissed that Sanji isnt acting like Ennie Lobby Sanji, is retarded since at that point Robin was the one in danger not him. Sanji is a self sacrificial person, most SHs are.....he would obviously act different for another person being danger.
What Sanji's decision in WCI had only one person who was getting in danger, and that was only himself. For sacrificing himself, he was protecting the SHs, Baratie and Kamabaka. Whereas for Robin sacrificing herself, she was only protecting the SHs. The entire point of Sanji doing everything in WCI was because Zeff and the Baratie were constantly being threatened. FFS, he even tried to fight back until the Vins kept on bringing up Zeff potentially getting killed.
Now lets say Post Timeskip Robin was put in Sanji's position. Im betting you she puts past all her development of trusting in Luffy, if Ohara ( if it was still alive) was in danger. Shed comply and try to sacrifice herself again.
So dont go around trying to compare situations, Sanji was in a far worse position because the lives of innocent people were on the line. Whereas for Robin, she just has to accept help from people who are already fighitng for her.
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Why tf did Zoro betray Sanji
Why you pretend Oda did not specify Pekomz could solve the problem.
Sanji should have never left, that´s the issue. Pekomz was healed in a matter of hours, you had two YC level guys who would do anything for them and made Bege shit themselves, Sanji chose to go because he wanted to finish with his family.
Why ignore this?
That´s my point, the situations were similar.
Whatever Oda needed to get them out (Vice Admiral standing on the ship but not getting involved, Aokiji simply betting on CP9 and admitting defeat once they lost) are all things the Strawhats could not have foreseen before and still took the risk.
Wrong. The first priority was to get Robin back, the fights needed to happen once Fukurou revealed the keys scheme, which forced them to beat each and every CP9 agent. They were even fine with getting Robin back by Usopp´s scheme on the train, but they did not account for Blueno´s door ability.
Oda weaving the narrative to fit 1vs1 fights is from a meta perspective obvious, but not for the Strawhats.
The only one who immediately took a target was Luffy, several times talking about the pigeon guy. And that was due to his instinct that he would be the most significant obstacle to getting Robin back, something directly stated towards the end of Enies Lobby.
Sanji being important or not is irrelevant to the point.
The point is, the way the decisions were taken, the way Sanji pretended the crew would not follow him despite he himself doing the same for a crewmate in a similar situation is at least ignorant, if not consciously harmful.
You can always say "everyone has a free mind, so Luffy´s and the crew´s decision is only based on them, they are responsible for it", but that´s not how adults argue. If your priority is the safety of the crew, you think about how the crew will react to your departure and act according to it.
And if you then argue "Sanji could not expect them to follow him there", and that opens a different can of shit, because it would entail that after seeing what the rest of the crew did for Robin, he did not expect them to do the same thing for him, which either would entail him thinking he is not an integrate part of the crew, which is clearly wrong, or that he is important but does not trust the crew to follow up on it, which, after the timeskip and anyone basically dedicating their life for the crew and Luffy, because Luffy always stood by them as well, leaves a shitty taste in one´s mouth, it simply does not fit, as people pointed out.
It was something Oda clearly shoehorned in to justify the story moving to WCI and creating the context for BM to get to Wa No.
Because we know he cant. We go off all the information we are given....its not picking and choosing. The Vinsmokes and Big Mom need Sanji, Pekoms cannot argue to save him. Especially if Sanji reaches WCI before Pekoms does, which he would since they cant catch up the Big Mama chanter. So even if Pekoms believe he can save him, the Vins wouldnt let him go and would carry on threatening Zeff.
Are you acting retarded on purpose at this point ? How many times do I have to tell you that Baratie and Kamabaka are in danger ? Why are you glossing over this. Wtf is Inu and Necko gonna do....teleport to the East Blue. Just admit you have nothing refute the point of Sanji leaving.
The point is they were ready to fight at Ennies Lobby not at WCI. The 2 situations are not similar. Nami says so herself that they wouldve brought the entire crew if they wanted to fight at WCI. Again your attempts to make both situations exactly similar will never work.
Again wtf was Sanji supposed to do in this situation big brains. Wait for the SHs and have someone from the Baratie killed. He left them a letter and Luffy was fine with him leaving, until Nami and Zoro started arguing with so they were forced to ask Sanji what was going. So funnily enough, they wouldve just trusted Sanji. Sanji never forced them to come at all, he did the best possible option and told them to stay and went to save the Baratie. They followed him after he told them he was handling it.
And if you honestly start saying that Sanji should value the crew over the Baratie....then go reread OP. Because I know damn well Luffy wouldve done the same if Ace was ever in danger. Again all your attempts are pathetic because you yourself cant argue against the fact that, they forced Sanji to go due to threats against Baratie/SHs/Kamabaka
Are you acting retarded on purpose at this point ? How many times do I have to tell you that Baratie and Kamabaka are in danger ? Why are you glossing over this. Wtf is Inu and Necko gonna do....teleport to the East Blue. Just admit you have nothing refute the point of Sanji leaving.
The point is they were ready to fight at Ennies Lobby not at WCI. The 2 situations are not similar. Nami says so herself that they wouldve brought the entire crew if they wanted to fight at WCI. Again your attempts to make both situations exactly similar will never work.
Again wtf was Sanji supposed to do in this situation big brains. Wait for the SHs and have someone from the Baratie killed. He left them a letter and Luffy was fine with him leaving, until Nami and Zoro started arguing with so they were forced to ask Sanji what was going. So funnily enough, they wouldve just trusted Sanji. Sanji never forced them to come at all, he did the best possible option and told them to stay and went to save the Baratie. They followed him after he told them he was handling it.
And if you honestly start saying that Sanji should value the crew over the Baratie....then go reread OP. Because I know damn well Luffy wouldve done the same if Ace was ever in danger. Again all your attempts are pathetic because you yourself cant argue against the fact that, they forced Sanji to go due to threats against Baratie/SHs/Kamabaka
Sanji saved Luffy from being targetted by all of Big Mom's forces. By attacking Luffy, he made it seem like Luffy was his enemy. If he even dared to show liking to him, then they would eliminate Luffy.
( Read the last 2 panels)
Luffy is only alive due to Sanji not acting suspicious. Now if Sanji tried to escape with Luffy, they wouldve captured all the SHs. Killed them, and forced Sanji to marry Pudding. Sanji did in fact save Luffy.
Try again.
( Read the last 2 panels)
Luffy is only alive due to Sanji not acting suspicious. Now if Sanji tried to escape with Luffy, they wouldve captured all the SHs. Killed them, and forced Sanji to marry Pudding. Sanji did in fact save Luffy.
Try again.
He was an idiot and he certainly could have handed things better, but it’s harsh to say he “betrayed” Luffy. That would imply a certain willingness from Sanji to actively sabotage the Strawhats, which wasn’t the case. If he had planned to make BM the PK that would be betrayal, instead he just sort of gave up on everything. Sanji betrayed himself more than anything, which is kind of his thing going back to Baratie.
Although beating the shit out of Luffy in the middle of enemy territory did come close to betrayal, it has to be remembered that he did then think he’d made a deal with BM that would allow Luffy to leave safely. It was a bad choice, but he only really had bad choices available.
The real thing Sanji did wrong was that Sanji, before Capone showed up, was aware that he was given a bounty poster that said alive only. Sanji is a clever enough person to know that means his past was catching up with him, and that could effect the safety of the crew. By not telling the other Strawhats on Zou what his past was, he put all of them in danger.
Although beating the shit out of Luffy in the middle of enemy territory did come close to betrayal, it has to be remembered that he did then think he’d made a deal with BM that would allow Luffy to leave safely. It was a bad choice, but he only really had bad choices available.
The real thing Sanji did wrong was that Sanji, before Capone showed up, was aware that he was given a bounty poster that said alive only. Sanji is a clever enough person to know that means his past was catching up with him, and that could effect the safety of the crew. By not telling the other Strawhats on Zou what his past was, he put all of them in danger.
Sanji saved Luffy from being targetted by all of Big Mom's forces. By attacking Luffy, he made it seem like Luffy was his enemy. If he even dared to show liking to him, then they would eliminate Luffy.
( Read the last 2 panels)
Luffy is only alive due to Sanji not acting suspicious. Now if Sanji tried to escape with Luffy, they wouldve captured all the SHs. Killed them, and forced Sanji to marry Pudding. Sanji did in fact save Luffy.
Try again.
( Read the last 2 panels)
Luffy is only alive due to Sanji not acting suspicious. Now if Sanji tried to escape with Luffy, they wouldve captured all the SHs. Killed them, and forced Sanji to marry Pudding. Sanji did in fact save Luffy.
Try again.
Big Mom did tell Luffy shed let him leave alive if he left Sanji alone. And that was only due to the fact that Sanji beat him up.
Lets ignore plot for a moment.....what would secure Luffy's safety more. Luffy being allowed to leave if he leaves Sanji or Sanji trying to escape with Luffy, and having Luffy killed. Only thing Sanji fucked up on was not giving convincing enough act for Luffy to leave him.
I dont see how telling them about Vinsmokes would help at all. He found out his bounty changed after the crew defeated Doffy. That was on the day Capone came and captured him. Barely even had any time to tell them.
The point is that Sanji didnt try to make Luffy like an ally that he would leave with. He made Luffy seem like an irrelevant non-factor that wouldnt make him leave. Thus making the Big Meme pirates just capture him and want him to keep silent.
- If Sanji showed love to Luffy, theyd kill Luffy
- If Sanji ignored Luffy, Luffy would progress more and more into becoming a threat with the stuff he would do for Sanji's attention.
Only option was to attack him and make him seem like an enemy.
Lets ignore plot for a moment.....what would secure Luffy's safety more. Luffy being allowed to leave if he leaves Sanji or Sanji trying to escape with Luffy, and having Luffy killed. Only thing Sanji fucked up on was not giving convincing enough act for Luffy to leave him.
I dont see how telling them about Vinsmokes would help at all. He found out his bounty changed after the crew defeated Doffy. That was on the day Capone came and captured him. Barely even had any time to tell them.
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The point is that Sanji didnt try to make Luffy like an ally that he would leave with. He made Luffy seem like an irrelevant non-factor that wouldnt make him leave. Thus making the Big Meme pirates just capture him and want him to keep silent.
- If Sanji showed love to Luffy, theyd kill Luffy
- If Sanji ignored Luffy, Luffy would progress more and more into becoming a threat with the stuff he would do for Sanji's attention.
Only option was to attack him and make him seem like an enemy.
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No, Sanji found out days before he left Zou. The timeline was:
-Luffy defeats Doflamingo, Jack leaves Zou on the same day
-Sanji and co arrive on Zou a day later
-the Strawhats leave Dressrosa three days after Doflamingo was defeated. At this point the bounties have for certain been released, but this could have came out earlier in the time that Luffy was unconscious
-the Strawhats take a week to travel to Zou, where they discover Sanji had left two days prior.
He had at least five days to tell the Strawhats why he had an “alive only bounty, but didn’t.
-Luffy defeats Doflamingo, Jack leaves Zou on the same day
-Sanji and co arrive on Zou a day later
-the Strawhats leave Dressrosa three days after Doflamingo was defeated. At this point the bounties have for certain been released, but this could have came out earlier in the time that Luffy was unconscious
-the Strawhats take a week to travel to Zou, where they discover Sanji had left two days prior.
He had at least five days to tell the Strawhats why he had an “alive only bounty, but didn’t.
Thats a lot of assumptions. The manga shows us that Sanji had knowledge of Doffy's defeat on the day Capone came.
Also another question, is how would Sanji know what the Only Alive means. He only pieced it together when he found out the Vins wanna make him marry BM's daughter. Theres no possible way of him knowing what it meant beforehand, he wouldve just be telling the SHs irrelvant info.
And lastly how would the information about the Vins be anyway helpful at all. Especially when Pekoms pretty much told them all they need to know.
@Garp the Fist
"The marriage talk solved the riddle for me "
"You cant kill me can you "
Sanji never knew what the Only Alive meant before. He only pieced it together at this moment.
Also another question, is how would Sanji know what the Only Alive means. He only pieced it together when he found out the Vins wanna make him marry BM's daughter. Theres no possible way of him knowing what it meant beforehand, he wouldve just be telling the SHs irrelvant info.
And lastly how would the information about the Vins be anyway helpful at all. Especially when Pekoms pretty much told them all they need to know.
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@Garp the Fist
"The marriage talk solved the riddle for me "
"You cant kill me can you "
Sanji never knew what the Only Alive meant before. He only pieced it together at this moment.
Not really, it was all lined up. Oda gave us the timeline for all of it.
He would not know it meant the Vinsmokes wanted him for a wedding, that would be impossible.
He would know that it meant the Vinsmoke’s needed him for some reasonl and his past is catching up with him. Unless you are willing to concede that Sanji is a complete idiot, it must have been clear to him that there’s only one person who would be able to get (and would have any reason to get) the World Gov to ask for him to be captured alive only- Judge.
Pekoms didn’t tell them anything important. He told them that Sanji was a Vinsmoke, who were a family of killers, who wanted to marry him to the Charlottes.
Sanji could have told the Strawhats more- how he hated the Vinsmokes, how he didn’t want anything to do with them, how they were basically awful people. The more knowledge, the better. As it was, the Strawhats were blind to a key aspect of Sanji’s motivations
Well, that goes back to what i said first then.
I always took that as Sanji realising how he could use his ”Only Alive” status as a shield against any harm from Capone’s men, but if we’re wanting to say he literally didn’t work out that his dad was the only one who could make him “Only Alive”, then yeah, Sanji’s an idiot.
He would not know it meant the Vinsmokes wanted him for a wedding, that would be impossible.
He would know that it meant the Vinsmoke’s needed him for some reasonl and his past is catching up with him. Unless you are willing to concede that Sanji is a complete idiot, it must have been clear to him that there’s only one person who would be able to get (and would have any reason to get) the World Gov to ask for him to be captured alive only- Judge.
Pekoms didn’t tell them anything important. He told them that Sanji was a Vinsmoke, who were a family of killers, who wanted to marry him to the Charlottes.
Sanji could have told the Strawhats more- how he hated the Vinsmokes, how he didn’t want anything to do with them, how they were basically awful people. The more knowledge, the better. As it was, the Strawhats were blind to a key aspect of Sanji’s motivations
Well, that goes back to what i said first then.
I always took that as Sanji realising how he could use his ”Only Alive” status as a shield against any harm from Capone’s men, but if we’re wanting to say he literally didn’t work out that his dad was the only one who could make him “Only Alive”, then yeah, Sanji’s an idiot.
So one piece of information of Pekomz is legitimate but the other is not because you do not believe it, that´s not how it works.
Pekomz is constantly negotiating with Big Mom to put her tantrums down, look at Fishman Island. He knows who he is dealing with.
It´s literally that, picking and choosing.
Big Mom did not need Sanji, not really. Sanji was the reason for the Vinsmokes to come to WCI, since Judge wanted to get to BM´s might, but did not want to sacrifice his successful experiments, so Sanji´s bounty getting out when it did was a huge coincidence. Big Mom could not care less which son it is, the deal was the important thing. And it is enough to get the Vinsmokes to WCI in the first place, which you could have done without Sanji, or pretend Sanji is there and contact them, they only saw Sanji in WCI, not before, so getting them to WCI was not that hard. And finishing off the Vinsmokes did not require "an assassination plot", they were beaten within minutes during the wedding, Judge was bitchslapped by BM.
Oda has done a shitty job to keep this cohesive and consistent, something that was required for us to still feel invested for the third time a crewmember leaves because of his/her past and the Strawhats need to save them, especially after the timeskip, and part of it is Sanji´s behavior.
The Vinsmokes would be dead. Nobody is saying Big Mom is supposed to forfeit her aim to get to Vinsmokes technology, the Vinsmokes are simply not grand and strong enough to keep her from getting it once they are in their territory.
1) Blindly believing that was stupid in the first place
2) You can still hatch up a plan to save them somehow if you buy time. Not immediately leave everything to fulfill your illusions.
Already addressed this, fight was a necessity only afterwards, i take it as forfeiting this one since you repeat what has been refuted.
Why would Zeff immediately be killed if he takes a few days more? Where does this info come from?
How can you account for the journey through the fucking New World big brain?
Big Mom and by extension the Vinsmokes did not know where Sanji was, so how are they gonna set a time limit for him to arrive at WCI? Your point literally falls apart here.
Pekomz literally wanted to keep quiet that he met Sanji, why? Because the threat that they want to use against him, Zeff and tranny island, only works once they meet him. And if they want to keep using it once they find him and take him, they need to keep them alive.
What were they going to do? The tea party arrives, Sanji is not there, Big Mom does nothing to the Vinsmokes, and the Vinsmokes then kill Zeff and co, and the whole thing is over? Talk about suspension of disbelief.
Sanji gets married by force into Yonkou crew -> never expected them to come. Stop bullshitting.
Luffy continued on his journey with the crew when he realized Ace is in danger due to the vivre card, not that was my point.
Sanji´s decision making immediately is the stupid thing.
Pekomz is constantly negotiating with Big Mom to put her tantrums down, look at Fishman Island. He knows who he is dealing with.
It´s literally that, picking and choosing.
Big Mom did not need Sanji, not really. Sanji was the reason for the Vinsmokes to come to WCI, since Judge wanted to get to BM´s might, but did not want to sacrifice his successful experiments, so Sanji´s bounty getting out when it did was a huge coincidence. Big Mom could not care less which son it is, the deal was the important thing. And it is enough to get the Vinsmokes to WCI in the first place, which you could have done without Sanji, or pretend Sanji is there and contact them, they only saw Sanji in WCI, not before, so getting them to WCI was not that hard. And finishing off the Vinsmokes did not require "an assassination plot", they were beaten within minutes during the wedding, Judge was bitchslapped by BM.
Oda has done a shitty job to keep this cohesive and consistent, something that was required for us to still feel invested for the third time a crewmember leaves because of his/her past and the Strawhats need to save them, especially after the timeskip, and part of it is Sanji´s behavior.
The Vinsmokes would be dead. Nobody is saying Big Mom is supposed to forfeit her aim to get to Vinsmokes technology, the Vinsmokes are simply not grand and strong enough to keep her from getting it once they are in their territory.
1) Blindly believing that was stupid in the first place
2) You can still hatch up a plan to save them somehow if you buy time. Not immediately leave everything to fulfill your illusions.
Already addressed this, fight was a necessity only afterwards, i take it as forfeiting this one since you repeat what has been refuted.
Why would Zeff immediately be killed if he takes a few days more? Where does this info come from?
How can you account for the journey through the fucking New World big brain?
Big Mom and by extension the Vinsmokes did not know where Sanji was, so how are they gonna set a time limit for him to arrive at WCI? Your point literally falls apart here.
Pekomz literally wanted to keep quiet that he met Sanji, why? Because the threat that they want to use against him, Zeff and tranny island, only works once they meet him. And if they want to keep using it once they find him and take him, they need to keep them alive.
What were they going to do? The tea party arrives, Sanji is not there, Big Mom does nothing to the Vinsmokes, and the Vinsmokes then kill Zeff and co, and the whole thing is over? Talk about suspension of disbelief.
Sanji gets married by force into Yonkou crew -> never expected them to come. Stop bullshitting.
Luffy continued on his journey with the crew when he realized Ace is in danger due to the vivre card, not that was my point.
Sanji´s decision making immediately is the stupid thing.
