Chapter Discussion Is Kizaru a psychopath ?

[Xione]

Lol?

They're only psychopaths if you consider humans who kill animals to be psychopaths. Or soldiers who kill enemy soldiers as psychopaths

They simply don't view as non-CD as humans like them but as insects. Likely groomed to be that way. They're rational in their mentality, they aren't unstable mentally. So wouldn't be psychopaths.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

They're only psychopaths if you consider humans who kill animals to be psychopaths. Or soldiers who kill enemy soldiers as psychopaths

They simply don't view as non-CD as humans like them but as insects. Likely groomed to be that way. They're rational in their mentality, they aren't unstable mentally. So wouldn't be psychopaths.

All I get from that is that they're demented and/or brainwashed. Still psychopathic though.

 

[Xione]

All I get from that is that they're demented and/or brainwashed. Still psychopathic though.

Sure but then you would argue about whether you're brainwashed into viewing animals to be inferior to humans thus you feel no remorse in killing them. Would that make you a psychopath?

They've shown perfectly fine emotions since their intro and have never shown any mental instability. You could say they're delusional due to their beliefs, but I don't think that would make em psychopaths. Unless you're using that word for murderers in general then sure.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Sure but then you would argue about whether you're brainwashed into viewing animals to be inferior to humans thus you feel no remorse in killing them. Would that make you a psychopath?

They've shown perfectly fine emotions since their intro and have never shown any mental instability. You could say they're delusional due to their beliefs, but I don't think that would make em psychopaths. Unless you're using that word for murderers in general then sure.

I don't really view animals as inferior overall, just inferior in intellect.
They still feel all the emotions we feel.
But I don't think we should killing certain animals. I mean, it's not like they won't die anyway.
You refrain from killing a deer, it's very likely to die to a wolf soon anyway.
An accurate equivalent wouldn't be killing animals for food and what not, but the people who capture them and make them perform in circuses and zoos and kill them if they try to leave.
THAT's psychopathic behavior, and it's exactly what the CDs do (though they go further with it, i.e molesting and marrying their slaves).

 

[Xione]

I don't really view animals as inferior overall, just inferior in intellect.
They still feel all the emotions we feel.
But I don't think we should killing certain animals. I mean, it's not like they won't die anyway.
You refrain from killing a deer, it's very likely to die to a wolf soon anyway.
An accurate equivalent wouldn't be killing animals for food and what not, but the people who capture them and make them perform in circuses and zoos and kill them if they try to leave.
THAT's psychopathic behavior, and it's exactly what the CDs do (though they go further with it, i.e molesting and marrying their slaves).

So you believe people who run circuses are psychopaths? Pet owners who essentially have animals enslaved are psychopaths?

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

So you believe people who run circuses are psychopaths? Pet owners who essentially have animals enslaved are psychopaths?

Pet owners and circus runners aren't the same thing.
People who own circuses will whip animals and make them do goofy acts for people they don't even know or care about.
When these animals run out of the circus and go berserk on the people who kidnap them, they get seen as an out of control savage and are shot down. Look up Tyke The Elephant.
Also happens with animals like Orcas.
This is different from pet owners. We often aren't even the ones putting these animals in shelters, we're just the ones picking them up.
At this point, they have no chance at seeing any family they may have. And their lives before were likely already garbage.
For example my cat was abused by her previous owners.

 

[Xione]

Pet owners and circus runners aren't the same thing.
People who own circuses will whip animals and make them do goofy acts for people they don't even know or care about.
When these animals run out of the circus and go berserk on the people who kidnap them, they get seen as an out of control savage and are shot down. Look up Tyke The Elephant.
Also happens with animals like Orcas.
This is different from pet owners. We often aren't even the ones putting these animals in shelters, we're just the ones picking them up.
At this point, they have no chance at seeing any family they may have. And their lives before were likely already garbage.
For example my cat was abused by her previous owners.

You're still restricting their freedom and treating them how you want to treat them with them having 0 say in it. You might be more humane to your slave (your pet) than somebody else who whips theirs, doesn't change the fact you still enslaved another lifeform. Then you have other animals who are groomed since birth to be slaves (pets).

All You're doing is setting boundaries at different standards than the Gorosei are. The Gorosei are setting boundaries at their own people that descend from the OG creator families. The rest of the "humans" to them are the same as any other animals, they're insects.

Even you specifically stated you pick and choose which animal we should kill and not kill. Do you think twice about killing an ant or a cockaroach? I don't. Because to me it's an insect. Would that make me a psychopath for not caring about the life of an ant?

Keep in mind we're talking about the Gorosei not random scrub Celestial Dragon. Charlos ? Yea that's a psychopath, he's very unstable. But the Gorosei are literally the most stoic group of individuals we have in the series from behavior, mental and any other aspect.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

You're still restricting their freedom and treating them how you want to treat them with them having 0 say in it. You might be more humane to your slave (your pet) than somebody else who whips theirs, doesn't change the fact you still enslaved another lifeform. Then you have other animals who are groomed since birth to be slaves (pets).

All You're doing is setting boundaries at different standards than the Gorosei are. The Gorosei are setting boundaries at their own people that descend from the OG creator families. The rest of the "humans" to them are the same as any other animals, they're insects.

Even you specifically stated you pick and choose which animal we should kill and not kill. Do you think twice about killing an ant or a cockaroach? I don't. Because to me it's an insect. Would that make me a psychopath for not caring about the life of an ant?

Keep in mind we're talking about the Gorosei not random scrub Celestial Dragon. Charlos ? Yea that's a psychopath, he's very unstable. But the Gorosei are literally the most stoic group of individuals we have in the series from behavior, mental and any other aspect.

I still think you're wrong on the animal stuff but I'll admit you're right that the Gorosei aren't exactly psychopaths, just unfathomably deluded and deranged egomaniacs.

 

[rerere]

Keep in mind we're talking about the Gorosei not random scrub Celestial Dragon. Charlos ? Yea that's a psychopath, he's very unstable. But the Gorosei are literally the most stoic group of individuals we have in the series from behavior, mental and any other aspect.

Keep in mind that psychopaths are not unstable people. At all. Real psychopaths are far more likely to act like the Elders than to act like Charloss.
Welcome back btw

 

[Krusher1357]

Tbh I got the impression he actually cares a lot and being an admiral he knows exactly how expendable he is to the gorosei.

My wounds are deep? Bro you about to fucking commit suicide or what kiz?

 

[zenox]

all the admirals except fujitora are psychopaths

 

[Aldarion]

Tbh I got the impression he actually cares a lot and being an admiral he knows exactly how expendable he is to the gorosei.

My wounds are deep? Bro you about to fucking commit suicide or what kiz?

After recent chapters, I got the impression that Kizaru is actually in deep depression. Basically, he cares and is not an inherently evil person, but unlike say Garp or Kuzan, he has completely given up on any possibility of making the world a better place. Kizaru is a broken man.

 

[MonsterKaido]

Kizaru suffering from brain damage

 

[Krusher1357]

After recent chapters, I got the impression that Kizaru is actually in deep depression. Basically, he cares and is not an inherently evil person, but unlike say Garp or Kuzan, he has completely given up on any possibility of making the world a better place. Kizaru is a broken man.

That's a pretty valid take, kizaru really does seem like someone who has come to terms with being a cog. It's also a contrast to the other OG3 admirals which is nice.

Aokiji believed the world government isn't good and didnt want to be a cog in that machine. kizaru may not believe either side is good or bad and pretty much stick around what has more power over him, at least at this point he is a Lil conflicted.
Akainu believes the world government is inherently good because pirates are inherently bad, he wants to be a cog in the sense the marines are the good. He is also big balled enough to realise the WG is bloody ridiculous but it maintains a form of order so why not
Lowkey makes me believe akainu has a chance to betray the WG if he can realise himself that that the WG isn't it chief.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

Kizaru turned out to be less sadistic than he seemed (personally I believe Oda changed the character as he first intented him to be, but that's just my feeling), although he still shows certain difficulty to manage his emotions, which was something established for his character. It's interesting to see how he now needs a moment to heal his psychological wounds.

An accurate equivalent wouldn't be killing animals for food and what not, but the people who capture them and make them perform in circuses and zoos and kill them if they try to leave.
THAT's psychopathic behavior,

This isn't what we'd call psychopathic behavior if your context systemically shows it in a good light. Human zoos have been a real thing and not everybody who either ran them or visited them were psychopaths because the people exhibited there weren't seen as rightful humans but an inferior species. If you want a modern example, not everybody involved in bullfighting is a psychopath in spite of how gruesome such traditions look for those who either aren't familiar with it or aren't into it.

Keep in mind that psychopaths are not unstable people. At all. Real psychopaths are far more likely to act like the Elders than to act like Charloss.

Yes they are, the popular depiction of psychopaths (which isn't a scientific label anyways) as refined, intelligent, manipulative people is far from reality and more commonly than not their mental instabilities are blatant. From a scientific point of view, what we popularly call "psychopathy" would fall in the cluster-B personality disorders and I can assure you those are far from mentally stable.

 

[Daves John]

Yes they are, the popular depiction of psychopaths (which isn't a scientific label anyways) as refined, intelligent, manipulative people is far from reality and more commonly than not their mental instabilities are blatant. From a scientific point of view, what we popularly call "psychopathy" would fall in the cluster-B personality disorders and I can assure you those are far from mentally stable.

Psychopathy is a disorder that exists, we just haven't been able to properly create a valid construct, so DSM-V doesn't have it.

While plenty of psychopaths are unstable, many have a perfectly convincing mask. That's why the profession with biggest ratio of psychopaths is CEO of a company

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

Psychopathy is a disorder that exists, we just haven't been able to properly create a valid construct, so DSM-V doesn't have it.

While plenty of psychopaths are unstable, many have a perfectly convincing mask. That's why the profession with biggest ratio of psychopaths is CEO of a company

Psychopathy lacks a proper scientific labelling. Again, what we popularly call "psychopathy" is addressed by other disorders that are more properly characterized, mainly from the cluster-B personality disorders —antisocial, histrionic, borderline and narcissistic; apart from that, all you'll read are vague "psychopathic traits". From here on, any statistic such as "profession with biggest ratio of psychopaths is CEO of a company" is pointless because, again, "psychopath" means nothing from a serious scientific point of view, which is why we haven't been able to build a specific construct labelled "psychopathy": it simply doesn't exist as its traits are best explained by other diagnoses including them.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Kizaru turned out to be less sadistic than he seemed (personally I believe Oda changed the character as he first intented him to be, but that's just my feeling), although he still shows certain difficulty to manage his emotions, which was something established for his character. It's interesting to see how he now needs a moment to heal his psychological wounds.



This isn't what we'd call psychopathic behavior if your context systemically shows it in a good light. Human zoos have been a real thing and not everybody who either ran them or visited them were psychopaths because the people exhibited there weren't seen as rightful humans but an inferior species. If you want a modern example, not everybody involved in bullfighting is a psychopath in spite of how gruesome such traditions look for those who either aren't familiar with it or aren't into it.



Yes they are, the popular depiction of psychopaths (which isn't a scientific label anyways) as refined, intelligent, manipulative people is far from reality and more commonly than not their mental instabilities are blatant. From a scientific point of view, what we popularly call "psychopathy" would fall in the cluster-B personality disorders and I can assure you those are far from mentally stable.

That's another problem with it
Animals are only inferior in intelligence. They still have feelings and everything

 

[Daves John]

Psychopathy lacks a proper scientific labelling. Again, what we popularly call "psychopathy" is addressed by other disorders that are more properly characterized, mainly from the cluster-B personality disorders —antisocial, histrionic, borderline and narcissistic; apart from that, all you'll read are vague "psychopathic traits". From here on, any statistic such as "profession with biggest ratio of psychopaths is CEO of a company" is pointless because, again, "psychopath" means nothing from a serious scientific point of view, which is why we haven't been able to build a specific construct labelled "psychopathy": it simply doesn't exist as its traits are best explained by other diagnoses including them.

"Proper" is a keyword here. Unlike "sociopathy", which was deemed obsolete, "psychopathy" is still used in studies, forensic and legal context.

That's because there is an argument on what it exactly is, a separate disorder, extreme/more violent version of ASPD or as you said, that it doesn't actually exist but is just combination of Cluster B symptoms.
But a lot of personality disorders share similar symptoms, so that doesn't exclude it immediately

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

That's another problem with it
Animals are only inferior in intelligence. They still have feelings and everything

Intelligence is directly related to feelings, which in their most complex forms require, first, a level of neocortical development only to be found in humans; and, second, specific cultural contexts that shape the feeling and how people experience it (a cultural complexity missing in other animals). Non-human animals experience from very basic emotions (even if it's only surprise) to feelings in the most intellectually developed (e.g. other hominids), but certain sentiments are reserved to humans as the most intelligent beings.

"Proper" is a keyword here. Unlike "sociopathy", which was deemed obsolete, "psychopathy" is still used in studies, forensic and legal context.

That's because there is an argument on what it exactly is, a separate disorder, extreme/more violent version of ASPD or as you said, that it doesn't actually exist but is just combination of Cluster B symptoms.
But a lot of personality disorders share similar symptoms, so that doesn't exclude it immediately

It gets to a point that it feels irrelevant to talk about "psychopaths", which is what I'm leading to. Even what you'd call the most basic assumptions about such profiles, like their lack of empathy, are heavily doubted or discussed (the empathy issue I mentioned was, indeed, one of the examples given during my training as psychologist). Those studies, forensic and legal context you mention will usually stick to the vagueness of "psychopathic traits" or similar, many times on a weak basis (e.g. many papers I've come across these years that talk about psychopathy use tools lacking enough reliability, such as the Dark Triad Test which, as far as I recall, showed strong overlap between its constructs; or simply choose "psychopathic" in absence of a better diagnosis). When the psychopathic profile can be better explained by using recognized labels (for example, I see no necessity in separating psychopathy from ASPD on the basis of it being a "extreme/more violent" version of it instead of simply including it as part of its spectrum), "psychopath" as a diagnostic becomes, at best unnecessary, at worst a buzzword abused by the average people that comes in handy to pathologize whatever they find unmoral.