Ever since the Zhao conquest has started many fans on this forum, reddit, discord servers, and various other forums have questioned or rather complained/bashed on Riboku not overthrowing or even trying to overthrow the Zhao Monarchy. And now recently with the speech he has given some brought this up again as a form of trolling him while others being serious about it being a negative of his character. SO, I figured why not just put this to rest and just take a depthful look at Riboku and the chances he had at overthrowing the Zhao Monarchy. Please bear with me this is going to be quite the long thread since I will be trying to lay out the field of not only Riboku's personal situation but the general political landscape of China. Then of course I will give my opinion on this whole idea.
Ryofui & Overthrowing of the Qin Monarchy:
I think it is only fair to take a look at the 1 specific revolt that was being done in the main storyline in front of our eyes with immense detail, before we go into Riboku's hypothetical revolt against the Zhao monarchy. So let's dive into what it took Ryofui to come close to overthrowing the Qin Monarchy.
1: Gather fuck ton of money as a merchant, money that arguably is more than even the Qin King himself. Money that could then be used to even buy off powerful politicians of other states like Kakukai from Zhao to manipulate various events.
2: Be close friends with the soon to be king and sell off your lover for your personal gains as a sacrifice.
3: Be lucky that your friend "dies" and the next successors are bunch of kids with relatively no power at all backing them up.
4. Have 2 of the top 5 military generals/talents of the entire state under you. Then also have the most influential politician & diplomat under you.
5. Be thankful that the King from 2 generations ago, King Sho, gathered fuck ton of Talent in Qin. That even after the Qin 6 are gone you still have 3 GGs (Duke/Choutou/Mougou) then having 3 Qin 6 level generals Tou + Ousen + Kanki, who are capable of defending the nation while being outside of the political conflict.
With Ryofui having all of these factors going for him, preparing to become a King since he was a mere teen. Dedicating everything he could and manipulating everything he could for decades to become the King of Qin... he still failed. It took a single betrayal from SHK for him to fail, had that betrayal not happened he probably would've been the King. But that's how delicate a revolt is and that is despite having those numerous things going for him.... So compared to this let's look at our dear Riboku shall we.
Riboku & Overthrowing the Zhao Monarchy:
Riboku unlike Ryofui didn't start off as somebody with grand ambition. Riboku in the same age that Ryofui was already planning up his future success to be the King... was on the battlefield seeking revenge for his fallen family members and getting fucked up in wars.
23 years ago: He meets Houken and changes himself as a soldier, instead of being a reckless warrior jumping into battle he becomes a strategist.
- spends unknown amount of time in Ganmon building up his reputation.
12 years ago: After Renpa leaves Zhao, leaving Zhao with no Great Heaven. Riboku steps up as a Zhao 3 after Renpa's departure and succeeds in killing the Xiongnu and right after takes down a Qin 6 in Ouki. Two back to back huge victories for Zhao that weakened both of Zhao's biggest enemies, the Xiongnu and the Qin.
11 years ago: Forms an alliance with Qin, and takes territory from Yan while solidfying Zhao defenses as the only Great3 caliber general. While at the sametime takes on the duties of a prime minister.
10 years ago: Sees through SHK's plan to conquer China with Sanyou, then proceeds to neg-diff Gekishin and Yan, taking more territory. Then goes out to each state to form the coalition.
9 years ago: Orchestrates the Coalition army invasion. Fails and loses all his powers.
7 years ago: Riboku returns to Kantan and starts building up the Zhao military again, with Chu & Qin standing out as the two superpowers of China.
5 years ago: The Keisha campaign happens, he then meets with Ei Sei and starts building fortifications for Zhao.
4 years ago: Qin invades, he loses and goes into retreat at Seika after being hunted by the new Zhao king.
2 years ago: Riboku returns again after making buddies buddies and recruiting Seika + bolstering up the Ganmon armies.
1 year ago: Kills Kanki and starts bolstering up the Zhao military again.
Present: We are in another Qin vs Zhao war.
Comparing Riboku to Ryofui's timeline for more clear understanding the difference:
Riboku in his teens and up to when he meets Houken was fighting battles recklessly for revenge - Ryofui was making money and political connections.
Riboku then was defending people of Ganmon from the Xiongnu - Ryofui was making money and recruiting military and political personnel under him.
Riboku then just 11 years ago achieves the position of prime minister - Ryofui is a chancellor at this time and arguably the richest man in China.
Riboku's best underlings being Keisha & Bananji - Ryofui's best underlings being SHK, Moubu, Saitaku & Rishi. 2 Qin6 level talents, top politician, top diplomat in china.
Riboku bore the responsibilities of top general+ PM + CoM - Ryofui was simply the PM equivalent in responsbilities.
Comparing state of Qin & state of Zhao Military:
Qin military wise:
- Tou, Shouheikun, Moubu, Mougou, Choutou, Duke Hyou, Ousen, Kanki, Yotanwa
- Rising stars of Ouhon, Mouten, Rokoumi, Shin, Kyoukai, etc.
- Fuck ton of strong subordinate generals
Zhao military wise:
- Riboku, Kouchou, Chou Haku
- Rising stars of Futei and Kaine
- Bananji, Keisha, SSJ, CGR, Gyou'un, and some other mid generals
That is a MASSIVE difference in military prowess. We'll get to why this is important down below.
When could Riboku have revolted?
The answer is... never, unless was a gonna be a dumbfuck.
In order for Ryofui to come close to overthrowing the monarchy, he became the richest man in China. He held arguably the most political sway we've seen from a non-king character. He had connections in other nations where he was able to manipulate political scenes. He was able to do all of this because he doesn't have to worry about fighting wars, his underlings do that for him. He had underlings that took care of various state responsibilities. HAVING ALL OF THAT....... he failed because of 1 simple betrayal.
Riboku on the other hand:
-> He doesn't have the money, THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR
-> He doesn't have the powerful underlings
-> He doesn't have the political sway until only 11 years ago, and even then it's nowhere close to Ryofui's
-> He loses part of that political power after the coalition failure
-> He then has to spend time building up the Zhao military since Renpa left Zhao and from the coalition failure
Revolting
- But let's even entertain this idea that he could've revolted when Renpa left, because he couldn't before that due to the Xiongnu. Instead of taking out Ouki and then building the Zhao military up, taking Yan territory then killing Gekishin and taking more Yan territory... he decides to revolt against the Monarchy. Do you know what's gonna happen? Qin will be coming rolling right in and fucking Zhao in the ass with Ouki more than likely being head of it or Moubu with Duke Hyou. OR Gekishin and Ordo waiting to take some territory... or Chu wanting to expand more... or Wei tryna get more territory with RENPA at the helm now or even better got damn Ouken wanting to reconquer more territory that Qi used to have.
- Alright no problem, let's fast forward to post-coalition. He doesn't have the political influence anymore from the failure of the army. On top of that Qin was having a military resurgence thanks to the big W at the coalition, with becoming a superpower along with the already powerhouse Chu. Then of course you have Qi, who was about to be targeted by the Coalition, they would've spared no time targeting a civil war ravaged Zhao.
- However, let's even skip this and come closer to when he's contacting Shibashou. He should've teamed up with Shibashou and just taken down Kantan.... Well.... Ousen & Kanki would be there on the borders happily ready to invade the moment Riboku & Shibashou start the civil war, ready to take vast number of Zhao territory, and possibly just even attack them with a pincer.
So really at no point in time would it ever make sense for Riboku to start a rebellion against the Zhao Monarchy when he's got enemies all over the borders ready to take Zhao territory... and the sole reason they haven't been able to do so after Renpa left is because of Riboku. Even when Riboku went into exile, the threat of Riboku's return still kept countries in check and cautious. Hell it was also Riboku's plan that kept Ousen and co checked up for a year after his exile to Seika.
BUT let's assume he does succeed:
He becomes the King. But after becoming the King he can't be the top general anymore. Those two things don't correlate at all. Since the duties of a King that Ei Sei takes care of can't be done while also doing the shit Shouheikun + Ousen do. So you're really gonna end up hindering Riboku's capabilities and burn the dude out.
OR
He puts Prince Ka on the throne, but he now has to babysit the young king to make sure no other political bs happens in order to manipulate the young king. And all the political drama that's going to be coming with it. Especially if this happens while Ryofui is alive, you can bet that mf Ryofui is gonna be doing his top tier manipulation lmao.
Conclusion:
In conclusion, Riboku does not have the actually faculties available to him to carry out a successful revolution, but he also simply is not in a situation where he can carry out a revolution while still being able to maintain or protect his nation. A person who was politically more powerful and had way more resources AND had WAY more time to prepare than him failed in his revolution while also having the privilege of multiple Qin 6 level generals protecting the borders. Expecting a successful one from Riboku is essentially asking him to be a god, like bruh has to go from dealing with the Xiongnu to now carrying out a revolution against his nation out of nowhere.
And for people who question why doesn't he abandon his country and go to a different one instead of serving under people like Toujou... like Renpa did. Well cause he's patriotic. That's it. It's been continously stressed at the start of the unification and even during it, people care about the nation they're from even if they don't care about the Kings. People care about the history of Zhao, they care about the culture their ancestors developed, they care about their separate identity. And Riboku cares about those people. It's that simple.
So it comes down to essentially: Do I want to protect and build upon the nation we have? or Do I want to try reconstructing it with 90% chance we'd lose fuck ton of territory and maybe even the capital itself?
And Riboku simply chose the former, which I personally wholeheartedly respect him for doing. And him still continuing to do so after what the monarchy has done to him just makes him even more respectable.
Please share your opinions and thoughts!
Ryofui & Overthrowing of the Qin Monarchy:
I think it is only fair to take a look at the 1 specific revolt that was being done in the main storyline in front of our eyes with immense detail, before we go into Riboku's hypothetical revolt against the Zhao monarchy. So let's dive into what it took Ryofui to come close to overthrowing the Qin Monarchy.
1: Gather fuck ton of money as a merchant, money that arguably is more than even the Qin King himself. Money that could then be used to even buy off powerful politicians of other states like Kakukai from Zhao to manipulate various events.
2: Be close friends with the soon to be king and sell off your lover for your personal gains as a sacrifice.
3: Be lucky that your friend "dies" and the next successors are bunch of kids with relatively no power at all backing them up.
4. Have 2 of the top 5 military generals/talents of the entire state under you. Then also have the most influential politician & diplomat under you.
5. Be thankful that the King from 2 generations ago, King Sho, gathered fuck ton of Talent in Qin. That even after the Qin 6 are gone you still have 3 GGs (Duke/Choutou/Mougou) then having 3 Qin 6 level generals Tou + Ousen + Kanki, who are capable of defending the nation while being outside of the political conflict.
With Ryofui having all of these factors going for him, preparing to become a King since he was a mere teen. Dedicating everything he could and manipulating everything he could for decades to become the King of Qin... he still failed. It took a single betrayal from SHK for him to fail, had that betrayal not happened he probably would've been the King. But that's how delicate a revolt is and that is despite having those numerous things going for him.... So compared to this let's look at our dear Riboku shall we.
Riboku & Overthrowing the Zhao Monarchy:
Riboku unlike Ryofui didn't start off as somebody with grand ambition. Riboku in the same age that Ryofui was already planning up his future success to be the King... was on the battlefield seeking revenge for his fallen family members and getting fucked up in wars.
23 years ago: He meets Houken and changes himself as a soldier, instead of being a reckless warrior jumping into battle he becomes a strategist.
- spends unknown amount of time in Ganmon building up his reputation.
12 years ago: After Renpa leaves Zhao, leaving Zhao with no Great Heaven. Riboku steps up as a Zhao 3 after Renpa's departure and succeeds in killing the Xiongnu and right after takes down a Qin 6 in Ouki. Two back to back huge victories for Zhao that weakened both of Zhao's biggest enemies, the Xiongnu and the Qin.
11 years ago: Forms an alliance with Qin, and takes territory from Yan while solidfying Zhao defenses as the only Great3 caliber general. While at the sametime takes on the duties of a prime minister.
10 years ago: Sees through SHK's plan to conquer China with Sanyou, then proceeds to neg-diff Gekishin and Yan, taking more territory. Then goes out to each state to form the coalition.
9 years ago: Orchestrates the Coalition army invasion. Fails and loses all his powers.
7 years ago: Riboku returns to Kantan and starts building up the Zhao military again, with Chu & Qin standing out as the two superpowers of China.
5 years ago: The Keisha campaign happens, he then meets with Ei Sei and starts building fortifications for Zhao.
4 years ago: Qin invades, he loses and goes into retreat at Seika after being hunted by the new Zhao king.
2 years ago: Riboku returns again after making buddies buddies and recruiting Seika + bolstering up the Ganmon armies.
1 year ago: Kills Kanki and starts bolstering up the Zhao military again.
Present: We are in another Qin vs Zhao war.
Comparing Riboku to Ryofui's timeline for more clear understanding the difference:
Riboku in his teens and up to when he meets Houken was fighting battles recklessly for revenge - Ryofui was making money and political connections.
Riboku then was defending people of Ganmon from the Xiongnu - Ryofui was making money and recruiting military and political personnel under him.
Riboku then just 11 years ago achieves the position of prime minister - Ryofui is a chancellor at this time and arguably the richest man in China.
Riboku's best underlings being Keisha & Bananji - Ryofui's best underlings being SHK, Moubu, Saitaku & Rishi. 2 Qin6 level talents, top politician, top diplomat in china.
Riboku bore the responsibilities of top general+ PM + CoM - Ryofui was simply the PM equivalent in responsbilities.
Comparing state of Qin & state of Zhao Military:
Qin military wise:
- Tou, Shouheikun, Moubu, Mougou, Choutou, Duke Hyou, Ousen, Kanki, Yotanwa
- Rising stars of Ouhon, Mouten, Rokoumi, Shin, Kyoukai, etc.
- Fuck ton of strong subordinate generals
Zhao military wise:
- Riboku, Kouchou, Chou Haku
- Rising stars of Futei and Kaine
- Bananji, Keisha, SSJ, CGR, Gyou'un, and some other mid generals
That is a MASSIVE difference in military prowess. We'll get to why this is important down below.
When could Riboku have revolted?
The answer is... never, unless was a gonna be a dumbfuck.
In order for Ryofui to come close to overthrowing the monarchy, he became the richest man in China. He held arguably the most political sway we've seen from a non-king character. He had connections in other nations where he was able to manipulate political scenes. He was able to do all of this because he doesn't have to worry about fighting wars, his underlings do that for him. He had underlings that took care of various state responsibilities. HAVING ALL OF THAT....... he failed because of 1 simple betrayal.
Riboku on the other hand:
-> He doesn't have the money, THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR
-> He doesn't have the powerful underlings
-> He doesn't have the political sway until only 11 years ago, and even then it's nowhere close to Ryofui's
-> He loses part of that political power after the coalition failure
-> He then has to spend time building up the Zhao military since Renpa left Zhao and from the coalition failure
Revolting
- But let's even entertain this idea that he could've revolted when Renpa left, because he couldn't before that due to the Xiongnu. Instead of taking out Ouki and then building the Zhao military up, taking Yan territory then killing Gekishin and taking more Yan territory... he decides to revolt against the Monarchy. Do you know what's gonna happen? Qin will be coming rolling right in and fucking Zhao in the ass with Ouki more than likely being head of it or Moubu with Duke Hyou. OR Gekishin and Ordo waiting to take some territory... or Chu wanting to expand more... or Wei tryna get more territory with RENPA at the helm now or even better got damn Ouken wanting to reconquer more territory that Qi used to have.
- Alright no problem, let's fast forward to post-coalition. He doesn't have the political influence anymore from the failure of the army. On top of that Qin was having a military resurgence thanks to the big W at the coalition, with becoming a superpower along with the already powerhouse Chu. Then of course you have Qi, who was about to be targeted by the Coalition, they would've spared no time targeting a civil war ravaged Zhao.
- However, let's even skip this and come closer to when he's contacting Shibashou. He should've teamed up with Shibashou and just taken down Kantan.... Well.... Ousen & Kanki would be there on the borders happily ready to invade the moment Riboku & Shibashou start the civil war, ready to take vast number of Zhao territory, and possibly just even attack them with a pincer.
So really at no point in time would it ever make sense for Riboku to start a rebellion against the Zhao Monarchy when he's got enemies all over the borders ready to take Zhao territory... and the sole reason they haven't been able to do so after Renpa left is because of Riboku. Even when Riboku went into exile, the threat of Riboku's return still kept countries in check and cautious. Hell it was also Riboku's plan that kept Ousen and co checked up for a year after his exile to Seika.
BUT let's assume he does succeed:
He becomes the King. But after becoming the King he can't be the top general anymore. Those two things don't correlate at all. Since the duties of a King that Ei Sei takes care of can't be done while also doing the shit Shouheikun + Ousen do. So you're really gonna end up hindering Riboku's capabilities and burn the dude out.
OR
He puts Prince Ka on the throne, but he now has to babysit the young king to make sure no other political bs happens in order to manipulate the young king. And all the political drama that's going to be coming with it. Especially if this happens while Ryofui is alive, you can bet that mf Ryofui is gonna be doing his top tier manipulation lmao.
Conclusion:
In conclusion, Riboku does not have the actually faculties available to him to carry out a successful revolution, but he also simply is not in a situation where he can carry out a revolution while still being able to maintain or protect his nation. A person who was politically more powerful and had way more resources AND had WAY more time to prepare than him failed in his revolution while also having the privilege of multiple Qin 6 level generals protecting the borders. Expecting a successful one from Riboku is essentially asking him to be a god, like bruh has to go from dealing with the Xiongnu to now carrying out a revolution against his nation out of nowhere.
And for people who question why doesn't he abandon his country and go to a different one instead of serving under people like Toujou... like Renpa did. Well cause he's patriotic. That's it. It's been continously stressed at the start of the unification and even during it, people care about the nation they're from even if they don't care about the Kings. People care about the history of Zhao, they care about the culture their ancestors developed, they care about their separate identity. And Riboku cares about those people. It's that simple.
So it comes down to essentially: Do I want to protect and build upon the nation we have? or Do I want to try reconstructing it with 90% chance we'd lose fuck ton of territory and maybe even the capital itself?
And Riboku simply chose the former, which I personally wholeheartedly respect him for doing. And him still continuing to do so after what the monarchy has done to him just makes him even more respectable.
Please share your opinions and thoughts!
