Powers & Abilities The Black Blade Issue

#1
With the mystery of GB having a Black Blade and all the discussion surrounding it with an insane amount of agenda from all sides I think we need to revisit what a Black Blade is and why GB has it (or not).

We are introduced to the Black Blade when Mihawk shows off Yoru against Zoro. However, at that point there is no emphasis on Yoru being a BB but what it signifies. Yoru is the strongest blade in the world and to surpass Mihawk, Zoro has to surpass the strongest blade too. Again the focus is not on Yoru being a BB.

Next we are introduced to Shusui and here the sword is being hyped for being a BB. We learn some of the qualities of a BB here for the first time. The main qualities are the toughness/durability of the blade and its destructive power and also being heavier and hard to control. This is an important point because it shows that not anybody can wield a BB and the BB is much stronger than blades of the same grade (Ryuma could break Wado too with Shusui).

After the TS, in Zoros first major fight we get his training FB with Mihawk where Mihawk says that any blade can become a black blade and then Zoro is forced to train his CoA. How haki protects the blade and why a nick should be treated as a sign of shame. Since then forging BB has turned into a CoA specific thing for many even after ACoC reveal.

BB is then not touched upon until Wano when Shusui is replaced with Enma (we also have that conversation with the fox about Ryumas history of battles forging Shusui into a BB) and Sukiyaki comments on how the rank of the blade can be raised by being forged into a BB which depends on Zoro. This is significant because if we take Odens story into account about him getting into fights and other situations and having Enma since his childhood and Oden having top tier haki and still not being able to forge Enma into a BB.

Lastly BB is mentioned in the Road to LT mags (which were published in Shonen Jump when OP took a month break between 953-954, last time this happened was when we got the TS). The Road to LT volumes revisit and touch on the most important overall and current story plot points. It includes Rogers Journey, RPs, World Events, Yonkos etc. In the three data sections we have one for DFs, one for bounties and one for swords. Here even though both Yoru and Shusui are shown, the focus of BB is on Yoru, where it is hailed as the strongest blade and BBs are regarded as the most elite swords. The mag notes how the Murakumogiri and Hassaikai are able to channel the full power of WB and Kaido due to their durability. The mag also clarifies that the grading is for weapons and not just swords by including WBs Murakumogiri, Kaidos Hassaikai and Katas Mole.

To summarize, a BB is a weapon (any weapon) which is forged through a history of battles (Ryuma and Mihawk both have had many battles) and it requires haki, haki should be so strong that there is not even a single nick on the sword. BBs are almost indestructible due to their toughness and can break other swords of similar rank without suffering any self damage. Because of their toughness/durability they can channel as much power as the wielder wants without breaking and their destructive power is very high (Zoros slashes being stronger with Shusui and Mihawks no named slashes cutting mountain size icebergs etc.).

The main ingredient so far seems to be haki in forging a black blade. The reason being that we can rule out the other assumed factors like becoming one with the blade/loving it/taming it etc. or requiring number of battles (this can obviously be wrong). My reasons are that of the people we have seen so far, top tier weapon wielders like Roger, WB, Kaido, Shanks, Oden, Rayleigh, Fujitora have not forged their weapons into BBs. Roger loved his sword so much he named his son after it, Shanks has a beloved weapon, Oden had his weapons since childhood and gave them to his children. The idea that these guys are not pure swordsmen seems absurd when we have manga statements of swords choosing their wielders, even more so these guys spending so much time with them and all of them having very high grade swords. We saw how Enma was acting with Zoro, why wouldnt the Supreme Grade weapons act or require just as much if not more.

History of battles also seems weird since guys like WB have lived to 70+ years and as a pirate he must have had a lot of battles. How could Mihawk and Ryuma achieve BB at much younger ages, even Roger was in his 50s at the time of his death, loved his blade, loved fighting and has one of the most hyped haki in the verse. Zoro is not going to have a history of battles at just 21 years age. He has had Wado since childhood (before that it was with Kuina), Enma was with Oden since childhood and Sandai had a history of dead owners. Of the three only Enma has a good case of history of battles with good level of haki usage. Venus is a centuries old geezer, a samurai character with top tier haki portrayal and even he couldnt forge Shodai Kitetsu in a BB.

So coming back it seems that haki is the main ingredient. But then comes the question of which haki and I think this is where many people take a tumble. Some want to push CoA to protect Roger/Shanks while others push CoC to put Mihawk above. And I have to say that both sides are wrong (no I am not going to say it is CoO). To understand we have to recap what haki actually is, how it has been shown in the series and why this question is stupid.

Haki is willpower, it has main applications of sensing others willpower/spiritual energy (CoO) and to use it for offense/defense. CoC is just willpower to overwhelm others willpower. CoC is not trained directly to grow stronger but it becomes stronger as the user becomes stronger. There is no CoC only becoming stronger while CoA and CoO are not getting stronger. You cannot have stronger CoC without stronger CoA. As such the argument that Roger/Shanks have stronger CoC than Mihawk but Mihawk forged a BB due to having stronger CoA is illogical. Unless Oda comes and retcons CoC and how it becomes stronger on its own this line of argument is absurd. CoC strength is a byproduct of the users strength. Even in SBS Oda relates to Luffys ability to KO all 100K fishmen with the difference in their strength. CoC KOs show that the difference in strength between the user and the fodders is so much that they cant even stand their presence. Maybe it is because people forget how big of an amp CoC gives compared to CoA.

To understand better we should get back to Mihawks words where he comments on treating every nick as a sign of shame and Zoros fight with Pica. Why does Zoro check his sword after clashing with hakified Pica, to check if his swords got nicked anywhere. In a clash the winner is decided by whose haki is stronger, Zoro broke Kings hakified sword. The idea that Mihawk would equal or win a clash against Shanks with weaker haki is going against the manga. Swords can get nicked in clashes as well as against armor so the haki should be so strong that even against the toughest armor and the strongest clash it should not get nicked. To forge the strongest blade in the world there is no other answer than to have the strongest haki in the world (unless we get some weird secret ingredient).

Now coming to the point of contention, does GB have a BB and did he forge it himself. On face value (which @Rootbeer sama has taught us not to do) there is no question that blade is indeed colored black. Some say it isnt confirmed until Oda colors it himself in a volume cover etc. or that it is actually a black sheath (examples being given of other black scabbards and Asura Dojis sword etc.). Despite his showings if GB has indeed forged a BB then I have to rank him among the other 2 forgers, whatever the implications.

@Fleet Leader Fenaker @Dragon777 @nik87 @grey matter @Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier etc.
 
#2
It doesn't matter black blade users are all stronger than emperors because they forge a black blade it makes them stronger

People who can't forge a black blade are obviously inferior swords are the strongest weapon and nobody who is called strong really made a black blade except Mihawk and he is the strongest and even Kaido did not make a black club or awakening he was a lame and only strong people can awaken their forge black blade and they can cut anything I think maybe they can even cut your soul and divide it into pieces and this is how the Gorosei become so many people because they were just 1 person but Imu cut them
 
#4
To be WSS black blade is the requirement
No you have to be stronger than Joyboy because even he never maked a black blade

R u dumb?

If Joyboy ever fought a black blade Ryuma he would just be cut so many times his body does not exist ok

And Mihawk is even stronger if he fought he would probably kill Joyboy's whole crew

Sword = most deadly weapon = highest ap highest durability highest armament and even conqueror and Mihawk even has the strongest observation haki

Stupid Shanks fans don't know Shanks only made a observation counter to try to beat Mihawk's already goated observation Mihawk literally stomps him and his so-called mentor Roger stupid Joyboy can only make black Haki he can't make black sword he just was first pirate doesn't mean he was strong ok he maked black lightning Haki but probably that was just common thing back then but nobody maked black blade ok??

That's not how it works

First you have to understand Ryuma Mihawk defeated all strong people and defeated them and there was no challengers which makes them the strongest and they can go anywhere they want and even emperor crews and Imu doesn't fight with them because they are powerfuler than him why else do you think world government doesn't fight Wano it's because Ryuma taught swordsmen how to fight and one time Ryuma could've just killed them all but he only stays in Wano so he just killed invader

This means Rykugyu is top 5 strongest characters right now he forge a black blade and it fits his character he probably maked black blade his girlfriend died and she was an old prostitute and her Haki got sucked into the black blade that's why awakening works it's probably related to death and this means Rykugyu already defeated every challenger

Also he has green color which means he is probably Zoro rival before Mihawk and Luffy can't fight or he will get his hands chop off so it will be 1v1 but the true problem is his Logia Power because if he has black lightning Haki forge black blade and logia power it means Zoro will have upgrade in Elbaf like master king of hell because he has to forge black blade n then he fights Mihawk when he has mastered his black blade at the final island but I think if two black blades clash it makes a black hole so idk I think Oda is trying to tell us Laughtale is going to get destroyed like God Valley
 
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#6
With the mystery of GB having a Black Blade and all the discussion surrounding it with an insane amount of agenda from all sides I think we need to revisit what a Black Blade is and why GB has it (or not).

We are introduced to the Black Blade when Mihawk shows off Yoru against Zoro. However, at that point there is no emphasis on Yoru being a BB but what it signifies. Yoru is the strongest blade in the world and to surpass Mihawk, Zoro has to surpass the strongest blade too. Again the focus is not on Yoru being a BB.

Next we are introduced to Shusui and here the sword is being hyped for being a BB. We learn some of the qualities of a BB here for the first time. The main qualities are the toughness/durability of the blade and its destructive power and also being heavier and hard to control. This is an important point because it shows that not anybody can wield a BB and the BB is much stronger than blades of the same grade (Ryuma could break Wado too with Shusui).

After the TS, in Zoros first major fight we get his training FB with Mihawk where Mihawk says that any blade can become a black blade and then Zoro is forced to train his CoA. How haki protects the blade and why a nick should be treated as a sign of shame. Since then forging BB has turned into a CoA specific thing for many even after ACoC reveal.

BB is then not touched upon until Wano when Shusui is replaced with Enma (we also have that conversation with the fox about Ryumas history of battles forging Shusui into a BB) and Sukiyaki comments on how the rank of the blade can be raised by being forged into a BB which depends on Zoro. This is significant because if we take Odens story into account about him getting into fights and other situations and having Enma since his childhood and Oden having top tier haki and still not being able to forge Enma into a BB.

Lastly BB is mentioned in the Road to LT mags (which were published in Shonen Jump when OP took a month break between 953-954, last time this happened was when we got the TS). The Road to LT volumes revisit and touch on the most important overall and current story plot points. It includes Rogers Journey, RPs, World Events, Yonkos etc. In the three data sections we have one for DFs, one for bounties and one for swords. Here even though both Yoru and Shusui are shown, the focus of BB is on Yoru, where it is hailed as the strongest blade and BBs are regarded as the most elite swords. The mag notes how the Murakumogiri and Hassaikai are able to channel the full power of WB and Kaido due to their durability. The mag also clarifies that the grading is for weapons and not just swords by including WBs Murakumogiri, Kaidos Hassaikai and Katas Mole.

To summarize, a BB is a weapon (any weapon) which is forged through a history of battles (Ryuma and Mihawk both have had many battles) and it requires haki, haki should be so strong that there is not even a single nick on the sword. BBs are almost indestructible due to their toughness and can break other swords of similar rank without suffering any self damage. Because of their toughness/durability they can channel as much power as the wielder wants without breaking and their destructive power is very high (Zoros slashes being stronger with Shusui and Mihawks no named slashes cutting mountain size icebergs etc.).

The main ingredient so far seems to be haki in forging a black blade. The reason being that we can rule out the other assumed factors like becoming one with the blade/loving it/taming it etc. or requiring number of battles (this can obviously be wrong). My reasons are that of the people we have seen so far, top tier weapon wielders like Roger, WB, Kaido, Shanks, Oden, Rayleigh, Fujitora have not forged their weapons into BBs. Roger loved his sword so much he named his son after it, Shanks has a beloved weapon, Oden had his weapons since childhood and gave them to his children. The idea that these guys are not pure swordsmen seems absurd when we have manga statements of swords choosing their wielders, even more so these guys spending so much time with them and all of them having very high grade swords. We saw how Enma was acting with Zoro, why wouldnt the Supreme Grade weapons act or require just as much if not more.

History of battles also seems weird since guys like WB have lived to 70+ years and as a pirate he must have had a lot of battles. How could Mihawk and Ryuma achieve BB at much younger ages, even Roger was in his 50s at the time of his death, loved his blade, loved fighting and has one of the most hyped haki in the verse. Zoro is not going to have a history of battles at just 21 years age. He has had Wado since childhood (before that it was with Kuina), Enma was with Oden since childhood and Sandai had a history of dead owners. Of the three only Enma has a good case of history of battles with good level of haki usage. Venus is a centuries old geezer, a samurai character with top tier haki portrayal and even he couldnt forge Shodai Kitetsu in a BB.

So coming back it seems that haki is the main ingredient. But then comes the question of which haki and I think this is where many people take a tumble. Some want to push CoA to protect Roger/Shanks while others push CoC to put Mihawk above. And I have to say that both sides are wrong (no I am not going to say it is CoO). To understand we have to recap what haki actually is, how it has been shown in the series and why this question is stupid.

Haki is willpower, it has main applications of sensing others willpower/spiritual energy (CoO) and to use it for offense/defense. CoC is just willpower to overwhelm others willpower. CoC is not trained directly to grow stronger but it becomes stronger as the user becomes stronger. There is no CoC only becoming stronger while CoA and CoO are not getting stronger. You cannot have stronger CoC without stronger CoA. As such the argument that Roger/Shanks have stronger CoC than Mihawk but Mihawk forged a BB due to having stronger CoA is illogical. Unless Oda comes and retcons CoC and how it becomes stronger on its own this line of argument is absurd. CoC strength is a byproduct of the users strength. Even in SBS Oda relates to Luffys ability to KO all 100K fishmen with the difference in their strength. CoC KOs show that the difference in strength between the user and the fodders is so much that they cant even stand their presence. Maybe it is because people forget how big of an amp CoC gives compared to CoA.

To understand better we should get back to Mihawks words where he comments on treating every nick as a sign of shame and Zoros fight with Pica. Why does Zoro check his sword after clashing with hakified Pica, to check if his swords got nicked anywhere. In a clash the winner is decided by whose haki is stronger, Zoro broke Kings hakified sword. The idea that Mihawk would equal or win a clash against Shanks with weaker haki is going against the manga. Swords can get nicked in clashes as well as against armor so the haki should be so strong that even against the toughest armor and the strongest clash it should not get nicked. To forge the strongest blade in the world there is no other answer than to have the strongest haki in the world (unless we get some weird secret ingredient).

Now coming to the point of contention, does GB have a BB and did he forge it himself. On face value (which @Rootbeer sama has taught us not to do) there is no question that blade is indeed colored black. Some say it isnt confirmed until Oda colors it himself in a volume cover etc. or that it is actually a black sheath (examples being given of other black scabbards and Asura Dojis sword etc.). Despite his showings if GB has indeed forged a BB then I have to rank him among the other 2 forgers, whatever the implications.

@Fleet Leader Fenaker @Dragon777 @nik87 @grey matter @Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier etc.
If Black Blades were the upmost elite of swords and weapons then Shusui would be a Supreme Grade Blade like Yoru and Yoru would have been able to cut Wado when Zoro got defeated in Baratie..

I completely disagree with this grouping of CoA and CoC.. They are 2 distinct powers for a reason, CoA refers to the Willpower in your personal tank while CoC refers to the Willpower beyond your tank when it has been emptied.. CoC becomes more powerful as the greatness of your character grows, it doesn't mean you get magically more stamina(CoA) with it.. Although strengthening your body and Armament to extreme training could have some sort of impact on the level of a person which can lead to CoC..

I think it's time people entertain the idea that there are different levels of Black Blades.. If Creating a Black Blade raises the Blade rank this means Yoru was a Great Grade Blade before, and Shusui was a Skillful Grade Blade.. Lets say if Greenbull's Blade was a Grade Blade level and became a Skillfull Grade Black Blade, it may have been considerably an easier feat than turning Shusui and Yoru Black..

I trully believe Usopp got a Black Weapon because his Kabuto is now called Black Kabuto and it's all Black, he was the one who connected with Merry the most and i think he found a way to bond with his Kabuto weapon and turned it Black, but it was easier for him cause his weapon is not a famous Meito.. The fact that Usopp has a '' Black '' Kabuto is brushed away way too easily when the topic of Black Blades is mentioned..

I also think no Supreme Grade Blade have been turned Black before as it would create another rank, and when it happens in the series it will be the first Red Blade, watch.. The reason why Supreme Grade Blade users have all not turned their blade in permanent Haki is because it has never been done not even by any World Strongest Swordsmen..
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#7
Haki is willpower, it has main applications of sensing others willpower/spiritual energy (CoO) and to use it for offense/defense. CoC is just willpower to overwhelm others willpower. CoC is not trained directly to grow stronger but it becomes stronger as the user becomes stronger. There is no CoC only becoming stronger while CoA and CoO are not getting stronger. You cannot have stronger CoC without stronger CoA. As such the argument that Roger/Shanks have stronger CoC than Mihawk but Mihawk forged a BB due to having stronger CoA is illogical. Unless Oda comes and retcons CoC and how it becomes stronger on its own this line of argument is absurd. CoC strength is a byproduct of the users strength.
Greatly summarized. I was just yesterday explaining this very thing to comrade and monochrome yoru...

The idea that Mihawk would equal or win a clash against Shanks with weaker haki is going against the manga.
This is the crucial point that so many don't understand.
They simply cope with Shanks>Mihawk instead.

Despite his showings if GB has indeed forged a BB then I have to rank him among the other 2 forgers, whatever the implications.
Bingo!
 
#10
If Black Blades were the upmost elite of swords and weapons then Shusui would be a Supreme Grade Blade like Yoru and Yoru would have been able to cut Wado when Zoro got defeated in Baratie.
Yoru was able to cut Wado. You know that. Even the biggest Mihawk hater on earth MUST know that.

Arguing Mihawk, whose very character introduction is him telling Zoro he does not hunt rabbits with a canon aka use 100% of his power against a target that requires 0,1% of it, FAILED to cut Wado or that Yoru could not do it is straight up nonsensical.

I do not buy you even believe that yourself.

Mihawk can cut a frozen tsunami the size of over a hundred Baratie with a single, unnamed attack.

If Wado can tank that level of force since as you say Yoru would otherwise obviously cut it? Zoro could have beaten Mr.1 to death with Wado via its sheer durability. Straight up.

This all btw ignoring that this is still a damn story and obviously Oda would not have Mihawk destroy the one named sword, which ties directly into Zoros backstory, during that stage of the story/ever.
 
#11
No you have to be stronger than Joyboy because even he never maked a black blade

R u dumb?

If Joyboy ever fought a black blade Ryuma he would just be cut so many times his body does not exist ok

And Mihawk is even stronger if he fought he would probably kill Joyboy's whole crew

Sword = most deadly weapon = highest ap highest durability highest armament and even conqueror and Mihawk even has the strongest observation haki

Stupid Shanks fans don't know Shanks only made a observation counter to try to beat Mihawk's already goated observation Mihawk literally stomps him and his so-called mentor Roger stupid Joyboy can only make black Haki he can't make black sword he just was first pirate doesn't mean he was strong ok he maked black lightning Haki but probably that was just common thing back then but nobody maked black blade ok??

That's not how it works

First you have to understand Ryuma Mihawk defeated all strong people and defeated them and there was no challengers which makes them the strongest and they can go anywhere they want and even emperor crews and Imu doesn't fight with them because they are powerfuler than him why else do you think world government doesn't fight Wano it's because Ryuma taught swordsmen how to fight and one time Ryuma could've just killed them all but he only stays in Wano so he just killed invader

This means Rykugyu is top 5 strongest characters right now he forge a black blade and it fits his character he probably maked black blade his girlfriend died and she was an old prostitute and her Haki got sucked into the black blade that's why awakening works it's probably related to death and this means Rykugyu already defeated every challenger

Also he has green color which means he is probably Zoro rival before Mihawk and Luffy can't fight or he will get his hands chop off so it will be 1v1 but the true problem is his Logia Power because if he has black lightning Haki forge black blade and logia power it means Zoro will have upgrade in Elbaf like master king of hell because he has to forge black blade n then he fights Mihawk when he has mastered his black blade at the final island but I think if two black blades clash it makes a black hole so idk I think Oda is trying to tell us Laughtale is going to get destroyed like God Valley
no you dummy , you have to be stronger than goku
 
#12
Yoru was able to cut Wado. You know that. Even the biggest Mihawk hater on earth MUST know that.

Arguing Mihawk, whose very character introduction is him telling Zoro he does not hunt rabbits with a canon aka use 100% of his power against a target that requires 0,1% of it, FAILED to cut Wado or that Yoru could not do it is straight up nonsensical.

I do not buy you even believe that yourself.

Mihawk can cut a frozen tsunami the size of over a hundred Baratie with a single, unnamed attack.

If Wado can tank that level of force since as you say Yoru would otherwise obviously cut it? Zoro could have beaten Mr.1 to death with Wado via its sheer durability. Straight up.

This all btw ignoring that this is still a damn story and obviously Oda would not have Mihawk destroy the one named sword, which ties directly into Zoros backstory, during that stage of the story/ever.
Yoru probably was able to cut Wado, but i don't think it can cut other Supreme Grade Blade on Yoru's Grade..

I guess you can't have Wado be cut at the start of Zoro's journey, and Mihawk didn't try his all the cut Wado either..

You would think that Yoru would at least put a dent or nick in Wado though?.. We don't know yet what makes Wado special
too as a Great Grade Blade, and Great Grade Blades base Durability should be quite tough, at minimum like Diamond no?..
 
#13
Yoru probably was able to cut Wado, but i don't think it can cut other Supreme Grade Blade on Yoru's Grade..

I guess you can't have Wado be cut at the start of Zoro's journey, and Mihawk didn't try his all the cut Wado either..

You would think that Yoru would at least put a dent or nick in Wado though?.. We don't know yet what makes Wado special
too as a Great Grade Blade, and Great Grade Blades base Durability should be quite tough, at minimum like Diamond no?..
If you are legit asking for an in-universe explanation here is two:

A: Mihawk just knew that Wado was a Great Grade Blade. Not exactly impossible since there are only 21 of them and Mihawk could conceivably just recognize it from looking at it/feeling it alone.

Mihawk, not being in the business of needlessly destroying sword of a legendary grade wielded by such figures like Oden, Ryum etc did consciously not destroy Wado.

B: Mihawk for some reason did not sense Wado/know it from look alone. In this scenario he just did not use enough force to destroy what he assumed would just be nameless fodder blade, from a random guy in the weakest seas that sorta impressed him.

Either way, it does not matter.

Mihawk, when destroying Zoro, for OBVIOUS reasons did not use his full power. Because if Mihawk did use just a fraction of the power he displayed at Marineford alone he would have literally destroyed the entirety of Baratie with one swing, never mind Wado.

There is no reality where Wado is just so tough that it can withstand Mihawk using his full force and swinging Yoru at it. IF we argue purely in-universe and remove all authorial intent, at bare minimum even if you want to give the blade itself diamond level durability, Mihawk MUST have held back.

Because he literally SAID he would do that. And no, just drawing Yoru does not mean he went all out, as he clearly, demonstrably didn't because Baratie was not wiped from existence and Zoro was also not atomized via a mountain busting swing from Yoru connecting with the sword in his MOUTH!

Unless Baratie arc Zoro has jaw strength able to withstand mountain busting attacks? Mihawk/Yoru “failing” to destroy Wano or nick it is meaningless since even via just Marineford feats we know Mihawk and Yoru can do more.

And again, if Wado could somehow withstand a full power Mihawk attack, Zoro could literally just have used it as a club to beat Mr.1 to death with the sword.
 
#14
If you are legit asking for an in-universe explanation here is two:

A: Mihawk just knew that Wado was a Great Grade Blade. Not exactly impossible since there are only 21 of them and Mihawk could conceivably just recognize it from looking at it/feeling it alone.

Mihawk, not being in the business of needlessly destroying sword of a legendary grade wielded by such figures like Oden, Ryum etc did consciously not destroy Wado.

B: Mihawk for some reason did not sense Wado/know it from look alone. In this scenario he just did not use enough force to destroy what he assumed would just be nameless fodder blade, from a random guy in the weakest seas that sorta impressed him.

Either way, it does not matter.

Mihawk, when destroying Zoro, for OBVIOUS reasons did not use his full power. Because if Mihawk did use just a fraction of the power he displayed at Marineford alone he would have literally destroyed the entirety of Baratie with one swing, never mind Wado.

There is no reality where Wado is just so tough that it can withstand Mihawk using his full force and swinging Yoru at it. IF we argue purely in-universe and remove all authorial intent, at bare minimum even if you want to give the blade itself diamond level durability, Mihawk MUST have held back.

Because he literally SAID he would do that. And no, just drawing Yoru does not mean he went all out, as he clearly, demonstrably didn't because Baratie was not wiped from existence and Zoro was also not atomized via a mountain busting swing from Yoru connecting with the sword in his MOUTH!

Unless Baratie arc Zoro has jaw strength able to withstand mountain busting attacks? Mihawk/Yoru “failing” to destroy Wano or nick it is meaningless since even via just Marineford feats we know Mihawk and Yoru can do more.

And again, if Wado could somehow withstand a full power Mihawk attack, Zoro could literally just have used it as a club to beat Mr.1 to death with the sword.
I don't really disagree with anything you said there.. I guess Yoru not cutting Wado is a poor example, and Zoro did say in thriller Bark that if the fight against Zombie Ryuma continued Wado would have broke, so ok then.. Well Black Blades are permanently clad in Hardened CoA after all..
 
#15
Black blades are superior to all normal blades. The only blades superior to black blades are black blades of a higher grade. There is no grade higher than supreme grade.


Ace is a higher grade than Shusui but not a superior sword. Ace can't break Shusui but Shusui can break Ace. A superior sword wouldn't break against an inferior sword. Once shusui became a black blade it became superior to all normal blades.

Yoru is the strongest blade because it's the only supreme grade black blade. If Roger would have forged Ace into a black blade it would be equal to Yoru.

Swords that are at least a decent quality don't easily break. Effort has to be put to break those swords. Zoro used Kitetsu III (fine grade blade) to block Shusui (excellent grade black blade) and it didn't break.


Zombie Ryuma had to use a sword breaking technique to try to break Zoro's inferior swords and they didn't break because Zoro countered Ryuma's attack before he could break them.


My reality is backed by manga

The reason Mihawk didn't cut or break Wado was because he wasn't trying to.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#16
If Roger would have forged Ace into a black blade it would be equal to Yoru.
Not necessarily because haki still determines which of the blades would be stronger.
For example, all of Zoro's swords will become stronger than Yoru despite not being Supreme grades before.
And that is because of Zoro's haki, which will be unrivaled under the heavens.

The reason Mihawk didn't cut or break Wado was because he wasn't trying to.
Correct, he never targetted it because the sword in the mouth is targeting just one side and Mihawk simple went on the other side.
 
#17
Not necessarily because haki still determines which of the blades would be stronger.
For example, all of Zoro's swords will become stronger than Yoru despite not being Supreme grades before.
And that is because of Zoro's haki, which will be unrivaled under the heavens.


Correct, he never targetted it because the sword in the mouth is targeting just one side and Mihawk simple went on the other side.
Agree with the rest of your post but kinda disagree on that point not gonna lie man.

Swords do not work that way from what we are shown. Sword grades, ultimately, DO matter. Zoros haki will become stronger than Mihawks haki, but there is literally nothing as far as the setting has told us that Zoro can do to make Sandai Kitseu for example into a stronger blade than Yoru.

Sandai is legit a simple Grade Blade. The lowest of the low. The only other one we even know to exists belongs to goddamn Tashigi. Its a "cursed" blade sure, so that might change the ranking a bit but still. Oda established that blackening a blade ranks up a swords quality. So clearly a swords quality is an innate thing that is not just gonna get an INSANE boost just because you got cracked Haki.

Zoro, even if he turns Sandai black and Oda reveals "actually all blades that are considered cursed are automatically a rank higher, but most swordsmen are to weak willed to wield them and fear them thus ranking them down in quality" or something like that? That would STILL only make Sandai have the same rank as Wado is now.

Yoru is a supreme grade blade right now, and a black one at that. Even if one was to think that Yoru was a Great Grade Blade before (I don’t, but hey for the sake of argument lets say it was) if Zoro turns both Wado and Enma black that would make the SWORDS just equal to Yoru still.

The way that strong/top tier people have supreme grade swords also leads me to believe that eventually the ONE way Oda might get “rid” of Kitsetsu even though I don’t subscribe to that idea fully is to legit have it explode because it cant handle Zoros haki anymore.

Though, I will admit, even since Joyboy seemed to infuse his Haki into a random rope of all thins without it exploding that theory kinda became a lot less likely, I still think overall WEAPONS work differently.

Zoro by EOS could likely not infuse an island cutting amount of Haki into any random sword he picked up from the nearest vendor, or do you disagree with that? Because I legit don't think its even about Haki control or anything but just what the swords, themselves, can stomach before they break.

At least to me, sword ranks MUST to matter to some degree or else why would have Oda even made the point of creating them and tying their ranking into black blades for that matter?

If they do not matter any ANY blade can become stronger through just its wielder, why even give Zoro graded blades at all? If his goal was to surpass the top/eclipse the heavens despite having “lesser” blades, that would be one thing but Oda made Wado and Enma Great Grade Blades and made the WSS have the world strongest blade for a reason.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#19
Agree with the rest of your post but kinda disagree on that point not gonna lie man.

Swords do not work that way from what we are shown. Sword grades, ultimately, DO matter. Zoros haki will become stronger than Mihawks haki, but there is literally nothing as far as the setting has told us that Zoro can do to make Sandai Kitseu for example into a stronger blade than Yoru.

Sandai is legit a simple Grade Blade. The lowest of the low. The only other one we even know to exists belongs to goddamn Tashigi. Its a "cursed" blade sure, so that might change the ranking a bit but still. Oda established that blackening a blade ranks up a swords quality. So clearly a swords quality is an innate thing that is not just gonna get an INSANE boost just because you got cracked Haki.

Zoro, even if he turns Sandai black and Oda reveals "actually all blades that are considered cursed are automatically a rank higher, but most swordsmen are to weak willed to wield them and fear them thus ranking them down in quality" or something like that? That would STILL only make Sandai have the same rank as Wado is now.

Yoru is a supreme grade blade right now, and a black one at that. Even if one was to think that Yoru was a Great Grade Blade before (I don’t, but hey for the sake of argument lets say it was) if Zoro turns both Wado and Enma black that would make the SWORDS just equal to Yoru still.

The way that strong/top tier people have supreme grade swords also leads me to believe that eventually the ONE way Oda might get “rid” of Kitsetsu even though I don’t subscribe to that idea fully is to legit have it explode because it cant handle Zoros haki anymore.

Though, I will admit, even since Joyboy seemed to infuse his Haki into a random rope of all thins without it exploding that theory kinda became a lot less likely, I still think overall WEAPONS work differently.

Zoro by EOS could likely not infuse an island cutting amount of Haki into any random sword he picked up from the nearest vendor, or do you disagree with that? Because I legit don't think its even about Haki control or anything but just what the swords, themselves, can stomach before they break.

At least to me, sword ranks MUST to matter to some degree or else why would have Oda even made the point of creating them and tying their ranking into black blades for that matter?

If they do not matter any ANY blade can become stronger through just its wielder, why even give Zoro graded blades at all? If his goal was to surpass the top/eclipse the heavens despite having “lesser” blades, that would be one thing but Oda made Wado and Enma Great Grade Blades and made the WSS have the world strongest blade for a reason.
I understand why you disagree - because majority of people assumed that rank increase through forging a black blade is only done by one rank 1 and thus logically, Sandai Kitetsu would never be comparable to Yoru... However, this is just our assumption.
The rank increase may not be done by 1 rank up specifically, there is no evidence that says the increase is by 1 rank.

The weapon grading is for 99.99% of the universe that uses weapons to fight but we are talking here about the 0.01% that managed to do what all others couldn't. To them, the weapon grading doesn't matter, they are the forgers who ultimately determine the rank of their weapons.
Also, if all supreme Grades are held by someone else, theoretically you could never match them because all the best weapons are taken and you are left with inferior weapons. That's why haki is what matters and allows you to surpass the initial grading, if you haki is strong enough and you are the chosen one to do the impossible, breaking free of that deadlock that is limiting supreme grades to just 12.

What you said about Sandai Kitetsu breaking and being replaced by superior grade is possible, certainly but I wouldn't bet on it.
Sandai Kitetsu was the black sheep that nobody wanted and Zoro is the one who makes history with it. And it also belongs to the 3rd generation of Kitetsus while number 3 is Zoro's theme.

I think Yoru was supreme grade before forging so theoretically the assumed 1 rank increase could never beat it but as long as haki is what truly matters, Yoru might have been even 4th grade and turning it into the strongest weapon in the world would be the biggest flex.
It is also possible that Enma and Wano surpass Yoru while Sandai Kitetsu stays weaker but I wouldn't bet on that either.
We are repeatedly told that haki is what matters most in this show and considering that we are already past the ability of handful of strongest, forgery of Black Blades is truly something else.

The feat is reserved for the 3 strongest characters of 3 different eras, this shouldn't be judged by the standards of those who arent capable of doing the same.
 
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