General & Others When and why did the manga go downhill?

#21
After Shabondy where Oda tried to make it all about Luffy the manga became unbearable, Zoro should have sent Wano, Sanji should have gone a muai tai island etc... I think Sanji didn't really needed to learn more cooking. Iva was just not fit to teach Sanji since he is weak and all his abilities are Df based.
 
#25
Ups and downs in beginning of post time skip, fish man island wasโ€ฆbad, punk hazard was really good, Dressrosa was mid, wci was good but kind of repetitive and slow, zou was absolutely awful, wano was good, egghead was good, and Elbaf has been good
 
#27
I wouldn't say it went downhill. But there have been some major changes associated with a drop in quality:
  • Story becoming more Luffy centric
  • Less focus on the other strawhats
  • Strawhats personalities relying on tropes
  • Focus on uninteresting side characters
  • Bad pacing
Most of these are a result of the world getting way bigger. Harder to focus on the other strawhats in a world with emperors/admirals/Gorosei/Revolutionaries. Easier to focus on Chopper in Skypiea or Brook in Thriller Park than in Wano with Kaido/BM/Kidd/Law/Marco. This elevated the role of the captain and downgraded the rest of the crew. Oda spending less time on the strawhats meant their characters becoming worse. Bigger world meant more side characters which meant less time on each character and side characters being boring/shallow. It also meant it is getting harder to pace an arc. It is getting harder to finish an arc with so many plotlines.

Most of these problems are a result of Oda massively expanding the world between EL and Marineford. W7/EL introduced the admirals/revolutionaries/emperors. Marineford set the scale of an emperor crew which is essentially an army with many commanders, underlings, and allies. You can't go back to the times when an arc had the strawhats, the villain and his underlings, and 3/4 island specific characters. Most of the problems of Onepiece had its roots planted in arcs mostly considered as the story peaks in the community. But this also had its upsides: bigger and livelier world, some really cool side characters, bigger sense of scale and stakes.

Other problems like art getting worse or stories becoming more repetitive is a result of Oda's age and the story going for so long.
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
โ€Žโ€Žโ€Ž
#33
Lmao how is WCI worse than FMI, PH, or Dressrosa? Itโ€™s so far tied for 2nd best post-TS arc along with Eggheaad (Zou is #1)
Enormous focus on Luffy over any other Straw Hat.
Sanji was utterly destroyed this arc and did nothing but bake a cake then get saved by his hated family
Terrible side characters. Pudding remains one of Oda's worst
Horrible villains. Linlin's hated specifically for the last 30 chapters of this act and Katakuri goes from being the terminator to giving a threat to his family undue respect.

Genuinely nothing good came from this arc.
 
#34
Enormous focus on Luffy over any other Straw Hat.
Sanji was utterly destroyed this arc and did nothing but bake a cake then get saved by his hated family
Terrible side characters. Pudding remains one of Oda's worst
Horrible villains. Linlin's hated specifically for the last 30 chapters of this act and Katakuri goes from being the terminator to giving a threat to his family undue respect.

Genuinely nothing good came from this arc.
I don't understand the criticism of Germa saving the SH in the arc
Post automatically merged:

Also, didn't WCI give more focus to Brook and Jimbei then most of post timeskip anyway? Even Nami got her moments.
 

Akai2

๐Ÿ†‰๐Ÿ…พ๐Ÿ†๐Ÿ…พ ๐Ÿ†ƒ๐Ÿ…พ๐Ÿ…พ ๐Ÿ†‚๐Ÿ†ƒ๐Ÿ†๐Ÿ…พ๐Ÿ…ฝ๐Ÿ…บ!
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#35
It's unfair to pinpoint a specific part as the "downhill" point or when the series "jumped the shark", as if everything afterwards is by default progressively worse.

One Piece definitely has its weak spots where the story's payoff is weak or doesn't fully land due to uneven pacing, the tail end of Onigashima is probably the best example of that.

That said, Oda is still an elite mangaka who is still consistently delivering interesting concepts and storylines. I get this is an unpopular opinion here, but things most WorstGen users look for in a chapter aren't what Oda is focusing on or aiming to deliver.
 
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Yoho

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#36
Enormous focus on Luffy over any other Straw Hat.
Sanji was utterly destroyed this arc and did nothing but bake a cake then get saved by his hated family
Terrible side characters. Pudding remains one of Oda's worst
Horrible villains. Linlin's hated specifically for the last 30 chapters of this act and Katakuri goes from being the terminator to giving a threat to his family undue respect.

Genuinely nothing good came from this arc.

Ahem Perospero
 

Akai2

๐Ÿ†‰๐Ÿ…พ๐Ÿ†๐Ÿ…พ ๐Ÿ†ƒ๐Ÿ…พ๐Ÿ…พ ๐Ÿ†‚๐Ÿ†ƒ๐Ÿ†๐Ÿ…พ๐Ÿ…ฝ๐Ÿ…บ!
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#37
I actually don't think that One Piece has gone downhill. But, I do think it's shifted it's focus from where it used to be.

Every arc used to be more character focused. And we used to be almost guaranteed to get a new crewmember every arc, because that's the formula that got established. I think this is partially why so many people keep expecting characters like Carrot and Yamato to join the crew. In the past, if a character got a major focus, they would join the crew. That's just how the formula worked back then.

But, nowadays, I think the story is less character focused and more plot focused. Oda is more interested in writing about the larger world and the larger themes of the story. He's more focused on the bigger picture, rather than the details and the character moments we used to get.

You could even make the case that the story is more villain focused. Because, I do think that the "modern" One Piece villains are usually written as being more complex and layered than the "classic" One Piece villains. Most of the "modern" villains have a sympathetic backstory, and Oda goes out of the way to show how their original dreams were actually pretty understandable. The villain's dream's just got corrupted over time.

Instead of being focused on the Strawhats, the story is now focused on the larger plot going on all around the world. It's more interested in the various factors and events that lead into how the World became like this, rather than on the adventures and desires of the Strawhats, themselves.

There's definitely been trade offs to this. Before, we would get more time with our main characters, and more chances for them to interact together. But, the story was much more similar to other shonen action manga. Nowadays, I think the story is a lot more complex and layered. There's a lot more ideas to unpack and explore in each arc. The villains have more complex and nuanced motivations. But, we've kind of lost that character focus and interactions that made the first part of the story so charming, and that's a shame.



A lot of people are going to say this happened post-timeskip. And that's actually fair enough. It's the most obvious place to point out how the story changed. A lot of other stuff changed around that same time, so it's just very easy and "clean" to say that it all changed during the timeskip. Some people might even say this kicked into high gear around the time of the Nika reveal in Wano.

But, I actually think the change happened earlier than that.

This video goes into more detail about the idea, if you want to give it a watch.

They actually make a fair argument that the change from being character-focused to plot-focused originally happened during Thriller Bark. And even nails down the very scene where the entire story changed focus.

"Nothing happened."

Now, this is a all-time great scene, don't get me wrong. But, it does show a change in how Oda approaches the story. Before this point, you could make a argument that ALL the Strawhat's dreams were equally important. They ALL mattered and had to be seen through to completion.

But, during this scene, Zoro is basically willing to sacrifice his dream to save Luffy. He's willing to die, to make sure Luffy survives in order to see his dream come true. Narratively, this makes Luffy's dream the most important dream of them all. The story is no longer about ALL the Strawhats achieving their dreams together. It's now about all the Strawhats working together to make sure Luffy's dream can come true.

And it's kind of telling that almost immediately after Thriller Bark, the Strawhats are all separated, and the manga becomes the Luffy Show for a few arcs, basically until after the timeskip. This is no longer a ensemble story, really. This story is now about Luffy. Luffy is our main character, and everyone else is a member of his supporting cast.



So, I'm not totally convinced there's been a change for the worse. But, I do think there's been a noticeable change. I think we've traded character complexity for plot and world-building complexity. And I'm pretty sure that change has it's roots ALL the way back in Thriller Bark.
It didn't go downhill.
Oda priorotizes other things now than what he used to, and the community just didn't adapt.
I can't argue with the folks saying post-timeskip arcs are trash because I wasn't reading them weekly so I don't know what that experience was like, but yeah I do like post-timeskip a lot, more than pre-timeskip honestly.
I was about to drop a critical mindset/logiko level post, but I kept it short since I already saw these 4 CHADs represent people on the right side of history :PepeChad:
 
#38
FI arc was a letdown, when Oda decided to skip whole Fishman Karate Dojo that he already hyped for years.
Instead Oda decided to show useless, irrelevant and ugly designed characters like Van Der Decken, Hody Jones, and Shirahoshi's brothers. It is sad that the best looking fishman in entire series is Arlong (Jinbe is second) that already introduced as soon as East Blue saga, while in Fishman Island there is nobody looking as cool and intimidating as Arlong.

Nobody wants to talk about Van Der Decken nor Hody Jones anymore, it is as if both are so bad people doesn't want to even remember them anymore. While in comparison, people here still gladly talking about older villains like Vergo, Doflamingo, Pica, Crocodile, Moria, Lucci, Magellan etc.
 

Yoho

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#39
FI arc was a letdown, when Oda decided to skip whole Fishman Karate Dojo that he already hyped for years.
Instead Oda decided to show useless, irrelevant and ugly designed characters like Van Der Decken, Hody Jones, and Shirahoshi's brothers. It is sad that the best looking fishman in entire series is Arlong (Jinbe is second) that already introduced as soon as East Blue saga, while in Fishman Island there is nobody looking as cool and intimidating as Arlong.

Nobody wants to talk about Van Der Decken nor Hody Jones anymore, it is as if both are so bad people doesn't want to even remember them anymore. While in comparison, people here still gladly talking about older villains like Vergo, Doflamingo, Pica, Crocodile, Moria, Lucci, Magellan etc.
Well Vergo, Pica and Doffy are relatively recent, Moria, Crocodile and Lucci are still relevant in the story

No need to talk about Hody and Decken because they aren't relevant and left no lasting impact
 
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