Role Madness One Piece Mash 2.0

[EkkoLoJinx]

@Waluigi in one of the sites u cited where u hosted a game in 2009 (total war?) the game was very very similar to naruto forum (my first home forum) games in the past. you indeed used to vote people for the silliest reasons ever, my favorite was because they wore an evil avatar. i looked at the game u hosted and it was similar. this seems to be the case everywhere

the skill floor and ceiling expectations for this game has evolved tremendously over the years. games seem more competitive in nature now unless you force yourself not to be competitive. and with any competitive game comes frustration when things go south

im really impressed you have this passion for the game until now. i was afraid id eventually lose passion for mafia somewhere along the way because it recently hasn't been as fun as it used to be. idk if it's the same for you or otherwise. i might venture into MU or other forums a bit like you do as a breath of fresh air to see if it reignites enjoyment for the game

i dont know anyone who plays where i play that links games from 15 years ago to cite an achievement. that's maybe because meta's change every year.. or even every month... but also i doubt people even remember those games. i can hardly remember the games i played last year. everything blurs together and feels repetitive. sometimes i find myself playing out of obligation rather than for the purpose of enjoyment. if changing sites helped u maintain your passion for the game that's something i'll have to look into, because i really like the idea of the game but i feel like it's mostly been a time-pass for me these days

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

Mergers suck. There shouldn't be any merger

Take Rocks pirates. They were less like a crew and more like merger of different personalities with different agendas.

Cool initially but gradually fault appears

rocks pirates were the goats

 

[Reborn]

rocks pirates were the goats

They were


But merger sucks. If they had bond like a crew, we would have seen an unstoppable force

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

the topic of town vs mafia alignments is interesting and i tend to agree that currently most people with few exceptions tend to enjoy randing town more than randing wolf. i wanted to write this post for awhile and im glad yall opened up this discussion

first i want to establish that when it comes to winrates just off top of my head most if not all of us have won more games as mafia than as town, yet the majority of us seem to like town more, and there are reasons for that for both veteran and rookie mafia players.


A. why do rookies and veterans dislike rolling mafia despite winning more?

for rookies, it's because playing as mafia can and will get boring. specially in traditional-designed games. when there is nothing for a rookie mafia to do than wait for town mistakes, the game will inevitably get boring for them, and it can be quickly seen from their posting.

this is why you introduce indies, you introduce unique role interactions, extra conditions, and basically create a mini-game for a rookie mafia to play and strive for within the game.

but this mostly applies to the new players that enjoy the role aspect of games more than the threadplay aspect, which are majority of the players here.

for veterans, they can always find something to do as mafia in dry games. set up the next mislynch, shield a teammate, powewolf and destroy town cores, set up a teammate for success, etc...

this is all fun for them to do, or was, until it also became a chore due to the existence of 3 things:

1. the increasingly low range that newer and more fun oriented players tend to have. this is mostly a by product of the lack of things for them to do as mafia as stated above. when they rand wolves it becomes very apparent that they don't enjoy playing that alignment. they aren't veteran thread players, so there is nothing for them to do if the game doesn't offer something for mafia to strive for. ive noted a possible solution for this below. when the game has many low range players, it greatly limits what angles a veteran mafia can push without looking bad for them, hence making the game a chore.

2. the increasingly high demand of activity. there is no denying that games these days demand 10x the amount of activity than in the past. i've proven previously that every game can be won simply by talking louder than the opponent. be more present in thread and talk more. this makes the game a chore for mafia players that like to play the thread. there is so much more that they have to fake now. it takes alot more energy to do that than to naturally yap for many pages as a rookie town.

3. the increasingly liklihood of the veteran's entire play being ruined by a mechanical counterclaim or result. given that the veteran players will by default have higher ranges, they tend to naturally be high on the list of targets to be mechanically resolved. this can destroy an entire game for a veteran wolf for something that feels cheap. now the veteran player has to play every game while keeping in mind the possibility of being caught by mech at any moment. it takes away from the motivation of playing it.

===============

B. what are some solutions to increase players enjoyment as mafia?

for rookies who are not willing to put in the hours to improve on the threadplay aspect of the game, or they simply prefer to remain casual players of mafia. the solution is really simple. it mostly comes down to creating things for mafia to do. here are few examples:

1. give them something to hunt for. for example, a super town role that they gotta fish for. list it in the mafia roles so they know "aha! this is a townie we gotta find and we get a reward for it!". you'll soon start to notice the mafia players having an "agenda" to play for, and it'll give them some enjoyment when they find that role and nail it down for their reward. maybe even give them a list of 3-4 town roles that they gotta hunt to unlock a massive boon.

2. create a dynamic where there is another threat in the game that everyone has to respect. while this can imply multiball, it doesn't need to be. a big bad indie, an indie that wants to mess with mafia, or even a traitor that mafia must find to make join their ranks. whatever it is, it can be any other non-town that mafia has to hunt for. it gives them something to do and once again show their "agenda". i typically love including indies that have special mechanics that the whole game can interact with.

3. create unique role dynamics between the team themselves and/or interactions with non-mafia roles. add in unique passives that trigger when certain flavor related events happen. this keeps the mafia team engaged, specially if they enjoy the flavor. add in an usurper, add in a mafia role that clearly wants to survive longer to become the big bad. whatever it is, don't make the roles too bland. they will be boring!

tl;dr for a rookie player the key aspect to make them enjoy playing mafia is adding something to the game or their mafia roles that draws out their mafia agenda, and makes them play for something. it is then town's job to catch this by determining that the wolf player is more focused on fishing for town roles, indie hunting, or talking about flavor stuff etc... the agendas that you drew out.

for veterans it gets a little tricky because the lack of enjoyment as mafia for them is mostly not setup related, but rather player and motivation related. sometimes motivation to enjoy and play the game can come from simply randing wolf with someone you enjoy playing the thread with. few general things that can improve the veterans enjoyment of randing mafia include:

1. the rookies getting better. as the rookies get better at the game, the veterans will find playing mafia less of a chore by default. there will be more threadplay challenge for them. the rookies will now try to catch the veterans via threadplay more so than rely on mech, and the rookies will now have higher ranges, which opens more angles for the veteran wolves to push. the enjoyment of randing that alignment slowly rises.

2. reducing the amount of strong mechanical clears in games. this doesn't mean make the game less role heavy, just make it less investigation heavy. roles like roleblockers, busdrivers, redirectors, refillers, motivators, doctors, vote silencers and any variations of those etc.. are mostly fine to have in abundance because they do not generate a direct result and carry some risks if misued. roles like mason tracker watcher cop etc.. need to be limited more because they create an informative result while carrying 0 risk. roles like vigilante/duellists etc.. can be kept in moderation or abundance depending on setups because they generate a result but they carry a big risk of misfiring. this point also includes reducing dichotomies and similarities in roles as these are things that rookie townies can naively latch on and is always frustrating for veteran wolves to get caught by.

3. this step is controversial but reducing post counts or placing post caps is something that i am certain will increase the game's enjoyment as mafia for veteran players. it reduces the needless town yapping and as a result reduces the amount of faking that the veteran needs to perform, which reduces the chore-ness of the game and as a result increases the enjoyment of it.

tl;dr for veterans the enjoyment to play the mafia alignment mostly rely on the rookies getting better at the game and for the investigative-mech heaviness of the games to be toned down. both things promote townies to play the thread more which are things the veteran wolves will find more enjoyable to play against. implementing a post cap is an added quality of life to reduce the amount of effort a veteran wolf needs to win the game as opposed to a player who mostly coasts.

===============

C. how do we create the ultimate game where everyone enjoys randing mafia?

to do that we need to merge all of the points above into one game, and luckily, they can all easily be mutually inclusive!

for rookie townies that love to play with roles, make sure the setup and roles have abundance of roleblockers, busdrivers, redirectors, refillers, motivators, doctors, vote silencers, and add in couple of kills with caution. do not add in alot of investigative and or/ easily self-clearing roles (such as revives, ICs or masons). keep them very very limited (yes much limited than kills). do not add alot of copies and similar roles, especially not ones that create dichotomies. do all this and the veteran wolves will love to play against town in this setup. now you've increased the enjoyment of a game that has rookie townies vs veteran wolves.

now to counterbalance the design of this, in the event the game ends up having veteran townies vs rookie wolves, make sure the game has abundance of role related stuff for wolves to do as discussed above. an usurper, a traitor to find, a super powerful town role listed in the mafia roles that they gain a boon for hunting, some flavor related interactions between mafia and town roles, some unique indie floating around with crazy game mechanic that all of the game must respect, etc... now you've created things for rookie mafia to do and their agenda will go wild with it, and the veteran townies will have some proper agenda to catch, as opposed to trying to catch frozen rookie wolves. now you've increased the enjoyment of a game that has rookie wolves vs veteran townies.

and lastly ofcourse remember when real rand happens the game will likely have a mixture of rookie and veteran townies vs a mixture of rookie and veteran wolves. with the items above in mind you've created a game that is enjoyable for both skill levels in both major alignments. the ultimate game!


i wanted to make this post for awhile and this is something ive been keeping in mind when implementing my games as you can see in expedition 33 and i strongly recommend hosts to do so to increase the enjoyment of the game for everyone playing it!

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

i will probably put that post in OLF and/or in another thread of it's own somewhere tomorrow, just wanted to share it with yall here for now as it's something ive wanted to write for awhile and yall opened the perfect topic for it

might also format the grammar later so it looks more presentable

tl;dr the post talks about why do most players currently enjoy randing wolves less than town despite winning more as wolves, and the things we can do to improve players enjoyment of that alignment.

 

[Waluigi]

@Waluigi in one of the sites u cited where u hosted a game in 2009 (total war?) the game was very very similar to naruto forum (my first home forum) games in the past. you indeed used to vote people for the silliest reasons ever, my favorite was because they wore an evil avatar. i looked at the game u hosted and it was similar. this seems to be the case everywhere

the skill floor and ceiling expectations for this game has evolved tremendously over the years. games seem more competitive in nature now unless you force yourself not to be competitive. and with any competitive game comes frustration when things go south

im really impressed you have this passion for the game until now. i was afraid id eventually lose passion for mafia somewhere along the way because it recently hasn't been as fun as it used to be. idk if it's the same for you or otherwise. i might venture into MU or other forums a bit like you do as a breath of fresh air to see if it reignites enjoyment for the game

i dont know anyone who plays where i play that links games from 15 years ago to cite an achievement. that's maybe because meta's change every year.. or even every month... but also i doubt people even remember those games. i can hardly remember the games i played last year. everything blurs together and feels repetitive. sometimes i find myself playing out of obligation rather than for the purpose of enjoyment. if changing sites helped u maintain your passion for the game that's something i'll have to look into, because i really like the idea of the game but i feel like it's mostly been a time-pass for me these days

Mmmmhm.

I mostly keep track of my old games because I have a terrrrrrrible memory.

I have to keep links and bookmarks and an actual written record of my games because I have entire games where, I never remembered randing town or wolf in it, I dont remember what happened or who was in it, I dont remember saying a single thing I said that game.

It is like someone stole my account and played all those games and I was literally never in them.

So I track the old games and reread them sometimes. Just to read them with fresh eyes.

But playing over so many eras of mafia, over so many different site cultures, so many different accepted town and wolf expected behavior sets, I have had to radically adapt to so many things.

Moving from my casual dopey I vote you for no reason, clown emoji, website, to twoplustwo roughly 12 years ago, where people would 400 post single day phases, and I would barely crack 50 posts a day on my home site and be the most talking MFer by far.

That was strange. That was walking into a room full of me's and not knowing how to react. Some of them wayyyyy more me than even I could handle.

But I did it. Then I helped found the Mafia Universe site, wrote the code of conduct, served as moderator and head moderator for years, became an admin, and retired so I could play the games on the site I built instead of being mister stuffy moderator guy who just puts out brush fires between players.

I got SOOOOOOOO excited to play games when I didnt have to read reports and coach people on their behaviors.

Alas, my time on MU and some other sites is at an end. Sometimes, things just don't work out.

I think if I dont find a relatively safe new home to play soon, I will just retire. Its not worth the stresses.

But I keep trying to reignite the spark that made me want to play-

1. new friends
2. new memories to form
3. new people to dazzle with my wolf or town performances, see if I can show them something theyve never seen before. Sometimes I instead make a big wet fart and impress no one, but you know. it happens.

I like forging those memories where you come in clutch, or do funny things, or make people laugh, or just.... find each other.

This one game in 2020, war of princes, me and some random guy i never played with before, had a day 1 playstyle difference disagreement. he was treating his friend a certain, untouchable way, and I just want people to play the game and their alignments, not form a masonry with their best friend every game.

Felt like not playing to wincon, ya know. So I was a little critical about it and felt half of the duo was wolfy, accused them. One got upset, and the other got upset their friend was upset, but it was all in the bounds of we're allowed to accuse people.

Anyway, day 2, we yeet a wolf together. Suddenly, opinion of me improves. he's secretly the town doctor, and he protects me that night, and I jail someone. zero deaths.

So day 3 starts and I announce I lied about who I was jailing, and jailed the same person I jailed night one. wolves were taken in by my lie, and they murdered the same target, both mafia families (two of them) whiffed.

I dunked a mafia day 3. it was a member of the other mafia family, back to back, with no town deaths in between.

Now my doctor loves my crazy ass, and we dunk a third mafia on day 4, and another one on day 5, and the mafia cant find my doctor and murder me.

We sweep the whole game, 6 wolves in a row, dead.

He reveals he was my doctor the whole time. And he might not have even ever protected me, if not for realizing he was town late day 1 and apologizing for sussing him and his friend.

Merely for being friendly with each other.

It's moments like that.... where you dont know a person. theyre a total stranger. and suddenly something happens, and a spark.

And youre just friends for life.

That man never stopped being my friend, even 5 years later, and that was the only game we ever played together.


Thats what brings me back to playing mafia, is the possibility that something like that could happen.

To new friends. Who are only strangers until they become our new friends.

cheers.

Like I said, I won't be on MU or certain other sites anymore for reasons.

I used to play on straight dope, but they turned their board into an infinite scroll, mobile friendly thing, and I just cant get used to playing mafia on it.

I hated it when people made the switch to xenforo forums for mafia playing, so I dont play on Novel Updates Forums or civilization fanatics forums anymore. I won't play on super toxic sites, either.

I have a list of sites I won't play on. And unless I find a place to call home I probably hang it up.

BUT.

I did get to randomly meet you, ekko, and have a blasty blast sweeping up a town. I did get to play that sub in game over on OLF where I made the game less toxic and accused all the wolves and townread all the townies.

Got to know fujishiro a lot better.

Met so many wonderful folks here.

That's what keeps me going, is the possibility of new fast friends. That always reignites the spark.

Sometimes the spark for the game fades, and there isn't a bunch of new friends.

Old friends move on.

Forums die, due to inactivity or toxicity, or bad staff.

Life goes on. Everything is temporary, and everything fades over time.

But temporary can still be a long time, and friends for life, even if life is temporary, feels like forever.

So, that's my thoughts

Being a wolf, has ABSOLUTELY lost its spark, for its own sake. but I got to forge friends with you and Rohan, and live up to Michelle's foreshadowing that she had found a "monster" to replace your inactive partner.

That's fun, of a sort.

But really, the fun I find is randing town, and protecting them from bad accusations, and dunking wolves with them, and forming memories that way.

Every town rand is a new adventure.

As someone who has burned out from playing at least 10 times, retired from playing at least that many times.

I know you can run out of gas, or desire to play, or fall out of love with it.

Even break up entirely with whole forums full of folks you used to enjoy playing with.

But the journey and the adventure and the friendships never end, if there's a new spark, new places, new people, new situations.

For however longer I play, or you do, I look at each single mafia game as if it might be my last.

Each new friend I make, might be the last new friend I make, over a 17 year mafia playing career.

But it might not be the last memory, or the last game, or the last new friend.

And if it is for you, or it is for me, you still have the good times to look back on.

As the final comic panel of the final Calvin and Hobbes comic said, and I never forgot-

Spoiler: big image

My brain memory is bad. So, I write down everything, keep links to everything. Archive everything, so I can go back and read all the stories we wrote together by accident and on purpose.

I can see all the friends long gone, and the memories that have faded.

And each one is special enough to me that reliving it is ever so special, and I think, wow. I'd love to go on that roller coaster again with them. Or with someone new.

So the town mystery still appeals. New friends do. New places do. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

But it's a magical world to explore, one more time, each and every time.

@EkkoLoJinx

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

Mmmmhm.

I mostly keep track of my old games because I have a terrrrrrrible memory.

I have to keep links and bookmarks and an actual written record of my games because I have entire games where, I never remembered randing town or wolf in it, I dont remember what happened or who was in it, I dont remember saying a single thing I said that game.

It is like someone stole my account and played all those games and I was literally never in them.

So I track the old games and reread them sometimes. Just to read them with fresh eyes.

But playing over so many eras of mafia, over so many different site cultures, so many different accepted town and wolf expected behavior sets, I have had to radically adapt to so many things.

Moving from my casual dopey I vote you for no reason, clown emoji, website, to twoplustwo roughly 12 years ago, where people would 400 post single day phases, and I would barely crack 50 posts a day on my home site and be the most talking MFer by far.

That was strange. That was walking into a room full of me's and not knowing how to react. Some of them wayyyyy more me than even I could handle.

But I did it. Then I helped found the Mafia Universe site, wrote the code of conduct, served as moderator and head moderator for years, became an admin, and retired so I could play the games on the site I built instead of being mister stuffy moderator guy who just puts out brush fires between players.

I got SOOOOOOOO excited to play games when I didnt have to read reports and coach people on their behaviors.

Alas, my time on MU and some other sites is at an end. Sometimes, things just don't work out.

I think if I dont find a relatively safe new home to play soon, I will just retire. Its not worth the stresses.

But I keep trying to reignite the spark that made me want to play-

1. new friends
2. new memories to form
3. new people to dazzle with my wolf or town performances, see if I can show them something theyve never seen before. Sometimes I instead make a big wet fart and impress no one, but you know. it happens.

I like forging those memories where you come in clutch, or do funny things, or make people laugh, or just.... find each other.

This one game in 2020, war of princes, me and some random guy i never played with before, had a day 1 playstyle difference disagreement. he was treating his friend a certain, untouchable way, and I just want people to play the game and their alignments, not form a masonry with their best friend every game.

Felt like not playing to wincon, ya know. So I was a little critical about it and felt half of the duo was wolfy, accused them. One got upset, and the other got upset their friend was upset, but it was all in the bounds of we're allowed to accuse people.

Anyway, day 2, we yeet a wolf together. Suddenly, opinion of me improves. he's secretly the town doctor, and he protects me that night, and I jail someone. zero deaths.

So day 3 starts and I announce I lied about who I was jailing, and jailed the same person I jailed night one. wolves were taken in by my lie, and they murdered the same target, both mafia families (two of them) whiffed.

I dunked a mafia day 3. it was a member of the other mafia family, back to back, with no town deaths in between.

Now my doctor loves my crazy ass, and we dunk a third mafia on day 4, and another one on day 5, and the mafia cant find my doctor and murder me.

We sweep the whole game, 6 wolves in a row, dead.

He reveals he was my doctor the whole time. And he might not have even ever protected me, if not for realizing he was town late day 1 and apologizing for sussing him and his friend.

Merely for being friendly with each other.

It's moments like that.... where you dont know a person. theyre a total stranger. and suddenly something happens, and a spark.

And youre just friends for life.

That man never stopped being my friend, even 5 years later, and that was the only game we ever played together.


Thats what brings me back to playing mafia, is the possibility that something like that could happen.

To new friends. Who are only strangers until they become our new friends.

cheers.

Like I said, I won't be on MU or certain other sites anymore for reasons.

I used to play on straight dope, but they turned their board into an infinite scroll, mobile friendly thing, and I just cant get used to playing mafia on it.

I hated it when people made the switch to xenforo forums for mafia playing, so I dont play on Novel Updates Forums or civilization fanatics forums anymore. I won't play on super toxic sites, either.

I have a list of sites I won't play on. And unless I find a place to call home I probably hang it up.

BUT.

I did get to randomly meet you, ekko, and have a blasty blast sweeping up a town. I did get to play that sub in game over on OLF where I made the game less toxic and accused all the wolves and townread all the townies.

Got to know fujishiro a lot better.

Met so many wonderful folks here.

That's what keeps me going, is the possibility of new fast friends. That always reignites the spark.

Sometimes the spark for the game fades, and there isn't a bunch of new friends.

Old friends move on.

Forums die, due to inactivity or toxicity, or bad staff.

Life goes on. Everything is temporary, and everything fades over time.

But temporary can still be a long time, and friends for life, even if life is temporary, feels like forever.

So, that's my thoughts

Being a wolf, has ABSOLUTELY lost its spark, for its own sake. but I got to forge friends with you and Rohan, and live up to Michelle's foreshadowing that she had found a "monster" to replace your inactive partner.

That's fun, of a sort.

But really, the fun I find is randing town, and protecting them from bad accusations, and dunking wolves with them, and forming memories that way.

Every town rand is a new adventure.

As someone who has burned out from playing at least 10 times, retired from playing at least that many times.

I know you can run out of gas, or desire to play, or fall out of love with it.

Even break up entirely with whole forums full of folks you used to enjoy playing with.

But the journey and the adventure and the friendships never end, if there's a new spark, new places, new people, new situations.

For however longer I play, or you do, I look at each single mafia game as if it might be my last.

Each new friend I make, might be the last new friend I make, over a 17 year mafia playing career.

But it might not be the last memory, or the last game, or the last new friend.

And if it is for you, or it is for me, you still have the good times to look back on.

As the final comic panel of the final Calvin and Hobbes comic said, and I never forgot-

Spoiler: big image

My brain memory is bad. So, I write down everything, keep links to everything. Archive everything, so I can go back and read all the stories we wrote together by accident and on purpose.

I can see all the friends long gone, and the memories that have faded.

And each one is special enough to me that reliving it is ever so special, and I think, wow. I'd love to go on that roller coaster again with them. Or with someone new.

So the town mystery still appeals. New friends do. New places do. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

But it's a magical world to explore, one more time, each and every time.

@EkkoLoJinx

very well said

after reading this im inspired to do some forum hopping and meet different player bases. pls invite me to games on other forums if you are aware of any good ones with solid playerlist taking place. let's meet somewhere in the vast multiverse of mafia

 

[MangoSenpai]

Mmmmhm.

I mostly keep track of my old games because I have a terrrrrrrible memory.

I have to keep links and bookmarks and an actual written record of my games because I have entire games where, I never remembered randing town or wolf in it, I dont remember what happened or who was in it, I dont remember saying a single thing I said that game.

It is like someone stole my account and played all those games and I was literally never in them.

So I track the old games and reread them sometimes. Just to read them with fresh eyes.

But playing over so many eras of mafia, over so many different site cultures, so many different accepted town and wolf expected behavior sets, I have had to radically adapt to so many things.

Moving from my casual dopey I vote you for no reason, clown emoji, website, to twoplustwo roughly 12 years ago, where people would 400 post single day phases, and I would barely crack 50 posts a day on my home site and be the most talking MFer by far.

That was strange. That was walking into a room full of me's and not knowing how to react. Some of them wayyyyy more me than even I could handle.

But I did it. Then I helped found the Mafia Universe site, wrote the code of conduct, served as moderator and head moderator for years, became an admin, and retired so I could play the games on the site I built instead of being mister stuffy moderator guy who just puts out brush fires between players.

I got SOOOOOOOO excited to play games when I didnt have to read reports and coach people on their behaviors.

Alas, my time on MU and some other sites is at an end. Sometimes, things just don't work out.

I think if I dont find a relatively safe new home to play soon, I will just retire. Its not worth the stresses.

But I keep trying to reignite the spark that made me want to play-

1. new friends
2. new memories to form
3. new people to dazzle with my wolf or town performances, see if I can show them something theyve never seen before. Sometimes I instead make a big wet fart and impress no one, but you know. it happens.

I like forging those memories where you come in clutch, or do funny things, or make people laugh, or just.... find each other.

This one game in 2020, war of princes, me and some random guy i never played with before, had a day 1 playstyle difference disagreement. he was treating his friend a certain, untouchable way, and I just want people to play the game and their alignments, not form a masonry with their best friend every game.

Felt like not playing to wincon, ya know. So I was a little critical about it and felt half of the duo was wolfy, accused them. One got upset, and the other got upset their friend was upset, but it was all in the bounds of we're allowed to accuse people.

Anyway, day 2, we yeet a wolf together. Suddenly, opinion of me improves. he's secretly the town doctor, and he protects me that night, and I jail someone. zero deaths.

So day 3 starts and I announce I lied about who I was jailing, and jailed the same person I jailed night one. wolves were taken in by my lie, and they murdered the same target, both mafia families (two of them) whiffed.

I dunked a mafia day 3. it was a member of the other mafia family, back to back, with no town deaths in between.

Now my doctor loves my crazy ass, and we dunk a third mafia on day 4, and another one on day 5, and the mafia cant find my doctor and murder me.

We sweep the whole game, 6 wolves in a row, dead.

He reveals he was my doctor the whole time. And he might not have even ever protected me, if not for realizing he was town late day 1 and apologizing for sussing him and his friend.

Merely for being friendly with each other.

It's moments like that.... where you dont know a person. theyre a total stranger. and suddenly something happens, and a spark.

And youre just friends for life.

That man never stopped being my friend, even 5 years later, and that was the only game we ever played together.


Thats what brings me back to playing mafia, is the possibility that something like that could happen.

To new friends. Who are only strangers until they become our new friends.

cheers.

Like I said, I won't be on MU or certain other sites anymore for reasons.

I used to play on straight dope, but they turned their board into an infinite scroll, mobile friendly thing, and I just cant get used to playing mafia on it.

I hated it when people made the switch to xenforo forums for mafia playing, so I dont play on Novel Updates Forums or civilization fanatics forums anymore. I won't play on super toxic sites, either.

I have a list of sites I won't play on. And unless I find a place to call home I probably hang it up.

BUT.

I did get to randomly meet you, ekko, and have a blasty blast sweeping up a town. I did get to play that sub in game over on OLF where I made the game less toxic and accused all the wolves and townread all the townies.

Got to know fujishiro a lot better.

Met so many wonderful folks here.

That's what keeps me going, is the possibility of new fast friends. That always reignites the spark.

Sometimes the spark for the game fades, and there isn't a bunch of new friends.

Old friends move on.

Forums die, due to inactivity or toxicity, or bad staff.

Life goes on. Everything is temporary, and everything fades over time.

But temporary can still be a long time, and friends for life, even if life is temporary, feels like forever.

So, that's my thoughts

Being a wolf, has ABSOLUTELY lost its spark, for its own sake. but I got to forge friends with you and Rohan, and live up to Michelle's foreshadowing that she had found a "monster" to replace your inactive partner.

That's fun, of a sort.

But really, the fun I find is randing town, and protecting them from bad accusations, and dunking wolves with them, and forming memories that way.

Every town rand is a new adventure.

As someone who has burned out from playing at least 10 times, retired from playing at least that many times.

I know you can run out of gas, or desire to play, or fall out of love with it.

Even break up entirely with whole forums full of folks you used to enjoy playing with.

But the journey and the adventure and the friendships never end, if there's a new spark, new places, new people, new situations.

For however longer I play, or you do, I look at each single mafia game as if it might be my last.

Each new friend I make, might be the last new friend I make, over a 17 year mafia playing career.

But it might not be the last memory, or the last game, or the last new friend.

And if it is for you, or it is for me, you still have the good times to look back on.

As the final comic panel of the final Calvin and Hobbes comic said, and I never forgot-

Spoiler: big image

My brain memory is bad. So, I write down everything, keep links to everything. Archive everything, so I can go back and read all the stories we wrote together by accident and on purpose.

I can see all the friends long gone, and the memories that have faded.

And each one is special enough to me that reliving it is ever so special, and I think, wow. I'd love to go on that roller coaster again with them. Or with someone new.

So the town mystery still appeals. New friends do. New places do. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

But it's a magical world to explore, one more time, each and every time.

@EkkoLoJinx

Hope we'll play more games together later, love your energy

 

[Waluigi]

Metroman- "And I love you, random citizen!"

No, for real, I had a wonderful experience being here, and you were awesome as well, Mango.

I'm genuinely considering signing up for another game here. I just want to make sure I don't have another toxic experience, that I had elsewhere, is all. I have to vet the player list a little more carefully this time.

 

[Waluigi]

very well said

after reading this im inspired to do some forum hopping and meet different player bases. pls invite me to games on other forums if you are aware of any good ones with solid playerlist taking place. let's meet somewhere in the vast multiverse of mafia

I can recommend a site or two, I will DM you.

 

[Waluigi]

I've been to 20 sites. I know the good ones and the bad ones.

I have all the deets.

 

[Rej]

Metroman- "And I love you, random citizen!"

No, for real, I had a wonderful experience being here, and you were awesome as well, Mango.

I'm genuinely considering signing up for another game here. I just want to make sure I don't have another toxic experience, that I had elsewhere, is all. I have to vet the player list a little more carefully this time.

You are invited to play my upcomming games. But they are still slowcooking for a few weeks/months.

 

[Reborn]

the topic of town vs mafia alignments is interesting and i tend to agree that currently most people with few exceptions tend to enjoy randing town more than randing wolf. i wanted to write this post for awhile and im glad yall opened up this discussion

first i want to establish that when it comes to winrates just off top of my head most if not all of us have won more games as mafia than as town, yet the majority of us seem to like town more, and there are reasons for that for both veteran and rookie mafia players.


A. why do rookies and veterans dislike rolling mafia despite winning more?

for rookies, it's because playing as mafia can and will get boring. specially in traditional-designed games. when there is nothing for a rookie mafia to do than wait for town mistakes, the game will inevitably get boring for them, and it can be quickly seen from their posting.

this is why you introduce indies, you introduce unique role interactions, extra conditions, and basically create a mini-game for a rookie mafia to play and strive for within the game.

but this mostly applies to the new players that enjoy the role aspect of games more than the threadplay aspect, which are majority of the players here.

for veterans, they can always find something to do as mafia in dry games. set up the next mislynch, shield a teammate, powewolf and destroy town cores, set up a teammate for success, etc...

this is all fun for them to do, or was, until it also became a chore due to the existence of 3 things:

1. the increasingly low range that newer and more fun oriented players tend to have. this is mostly a by product of the lack of things for them to do as mafia as stated above. when they rand wolves it becomes very apparent that they don't enjoy playing that alignment. they aren't veteran thread players, so there is nothing for them to do if the game doesn't offer something for mafia to strive for. ive noted a possible solution for this below. when the game has many low range players, it greatly limits what angles a veteran mafia can push without looking bad for them, hence making the game a chore.

2. the increasingly high demand of activity. there is no denying that games these days demand 10x the amount of activity than in the past. i've proven previously that every game can be won simply by talking louder than the opponent. be more present in thread and talk more. this makes the game a chore for mafia players that like to play the thread. there is so much more that they have to fake now. it takes alot more energy to do that than to naturally yap for many pages as a rookie town.

3. the increasingly liklihood of the veteran's entire play being ruined by a mechanical counterclaim or result. given that the veteran players will by default have higher ranges, they tend to naturally be high on the list of targets to be mechanically resolved. this can destroy an entire game for a veteran wolf for something that feels cheap. now the veteran player has to play every game while keeping in mind the possibility of being caught by mech at any moment. it takes away from the motivation of playing it.

===============

B. what are some solutions to increase players enjoyment as mafia?

for rookies who are not willing to put in the hours to improve on the threadplay aspect of the game, or they simply prefer to remain casual players of mafia. the solution is really simple. it mostly comes down to creating things for mafia to do. here are few examples:

1. give them something to hunt for. for example, a super town role that they gotta fish for. list it in the mafia roles so they know "aha! this is a townie we gotta find and we get a reward for it!". you'll soon start to notice the mafia players having an "agenda" to play for, and it'll give them some enjoyment when they find that role and nail it down for their reward. maybe even give them a list of 3-4 town roles that they gotta hunt to unlock a massive boon.

2. create a dynamic where there is another threat in the game that everyone has to respect. while this can imply multiball, it doesn't need to be. a big bad indie, an indie that wants to mess with mafia, or even a traitor that mafia must find to make join their ranks. whatever it is, it can be any other non-town that mafia has to hunt for. it gives them something to do and once again show their "agenda". i typically love including indies that have special mechanics that the whole game can interact with.

3. create unique role dynamics between the team themselves and/or interactions with non-mafia roles. add in unique passives that trigger when certain flavor related events happen. this keeps the mafia team engaged, specially if they enjoy the flavor. add in an usurper, add in a mafia role that clearly wants to survive longer to become the big bad. whatever it is, don't make the roles too bland. they will be boring!

tl;dr for a rookie player the key aspect to make them enjoy playing mafia is adding something to the game or their mafia roles that draws out their mafia agenda, and makes them play for something. it is then town's job to catch this by determining that the wolf player is more focused on fishing for town roles, indie hunting, or talking about flavor stuff etc... the agendas that you drew out.

for veterans it gets a little tricky because the lack of enjoyment as mafia for them is mostly not setup related, but rather player and motivation related. sometimes motivation to enjoy and play the game can come from simply randing wolf with someone you enjoy playing the thread with. few general things that can improve the veterans enjoyment of randing mafia include:

1. the rookies getting better. as the rookies get better at the game, the veterans will find playing mafia less of a chore by default. there will be more threadplay challenge for them. the rookies will now try to catch the veterans via threadplay more so than rely on mech, and the rookies will now have higher ranges, which opens more angles for the veteran wolves to push. the enjoyment of randing that alignment slowly rises.

2. reducing the amount of strong mechanical clears in games. this doesn't mean make the game less role heavy, just make it less investigation heavy. roles like roleblockers, busdrivers, redirectors, refillers, motivators, doctors, vote silencers and any variations of those etc.. are mostly fine to have in abundance because they do not generate a direct result and carry some risks if misued. roles like mason tracker watcher cop etc.. need to be limited more because they create an informative result while carrying 0 risk. roles like vigilante/duellists etc.. can be kept in moderation or abundance depending on setups because they generate a result but they carry a big risk of misfiring. this point also includes reducing dichotomies and similarities in roles as these are things that rookie townies can naively latch on and is always frustrating for veteran wolves to get caught by.

3. this step is controversial but reducing post counts or placing post caps is something that i am certain will increase the game's enjoyment as mafia for veteran players. it reduces the needless town yapping and as a result reduces the amount of faking that the veteran needs to perform, which reduces the chore-ness of the game and as a result increases the enjoyment of it.

tl;dr for veterans the enjoyment to play the mafia alignment mostly rely on the rookies getting better at the game and for the investigative-mech heaviness of the games to be toned down. both things promote townies to play the thread more which are things the veteran wolves will find more enjoyable to play against. implementing a post cap is an added quality of life to reduce the amount of effort a veteran wolf needs to win the game as opposed to a player who mostly coasts.

===============

C. how do we create the ultimate game where everyone enjoys randing mafia?

to do that we need to merge all of the points above into one game, and luckily, they can all easily be mutually inclusive!

for rookie townies that love to play with roles, make sure the setup and roles have abundance of roleblockers, busdrivers, redirectors, refillers, motivators, doctors, vote silencers, and add in couple of kills with caution. do not add in alot of investigative and or/ easily self-clearing roles (such as revives, ICs or masons). keep them very very limited (yes much limited than kills). do not add alot of copies and similar roles, especially not ones that create dichotomies. do all this and the veteran wolves will love to play against town in this setup. now you've increased the enjoyment of a game that has rookie townies vs veteran wolves.

now to counterbalance the design of this, in the event the game ends up having veteran townies vs rookie wolves, make sure the game has abundance of role related stuff for wolves to do as discussed above. an usurper, a traitor to find, a super powerful town role listed in the mafia roles that they gain a boon for hunting, some flavor related interactions between mafia and town roles, some unique indie floating around with crazy game mechanic that all of the game must respect, etc... now you've created things for rookie mafia to do and their agenda will go wild with it, and the veteran townies will have some proper agenda to catch, as opposed to trying to catch frozen rookie wolves. now you've increased the enjoyment of a game that has rookie wolves vs veteran townies.

and lastly ofcourse remember when real rand happens the game will likely have a mixture of rookie and veteran townies vs a mixture of rookie and veteran wolves. with the items above in mind you've created a game that is enjoyable for both skill levels in both major alignments. the ultimate game!


i wanted to make this post for awhile and this is something ive been keeping in mind when implementing my games as you can see in expedition 33 and i strongly recommend hosts to do so to increase the enjoyment of the game for everyone playing it!

Mmmmhm.

I mostly keep track of my old games because I have a terrrrrrrible memory.

I have to keep links and bookmarks and an actual written record of my games because I have entire games where, I never remembered randing town or wolf in it, I dont remember what happened or who was in it, I dont remember saying a single thing I said that game.

It is like someone stole my account and played all those games and I was literally never in them.

So I track the old games and reread them sometimes. Just to read them with fresh eyes.

But playing over so many eras of mafia, over so many different site cultures, so many different accepted town and wolf expected behavior sets, I have had to radically adapt to so many things.

Moving from my casual dopey I vote you for no reason, clown emoji, website, to twoplustwo roughly 12 years ago, where people would 400 post single day phases, and I would barely crack 50 posts a day on my home site and be the most talking MFer by far.

That was strange. That was walking into a room full of me's and not knowing how to react. Some of them wayyyyy more me than even I could handle.

But I did it. Then I helped found the Mafia Universe site, wrote the code of conduct, served as moderator and head moderator for years, became an admin, and retired so I could play the games on the site I built instead of being mister stuffy moderator guy who just puts out brush fires between players.

I got SOOOOOOOO excited to play games when I didnt have to read reports and coach people on their behaviors.

Alas, my time on MU and some other sites is at an end. Sometimes, things just don't work out.

I think if I dont find a relatively safe new home to play soon, I will just retire. Its not worth the stresses.

But I keep trying to reignite the spark that made me want to play-

1. new friends
2. new memories to form
3. new people to dazzle with my wolf or town performances, see if I can show them something theyve never seen before. Sometimes I instead make a big wet fart and impress no one, but you know. it happens.

I like forging those memories where you come in clutch, or do funny things, or make people laugh, or just.... find each other.

This one game in 2020, war of princes, me and some random guy i never played with before, had a day 1 playstyle difference disagreement. he was treating his friend a certain, untouchable way, and I just want people to play the game and their alignments, not form a masonry with their best friend every game.

Felt like not playing to wincon, ya know. So I was a little critical about it and felt half of the duo was wolfy, accused them. One got upset, and the other got upset their friend was upset, but it was all in the bounds of we're allowed to accuse people.

Anyway, day 2, we yeet a wolf together. Suddenly, opinion of me improves. he's secretly the town doctor, and he protects me that night, and I jail someone. zero deaths.

So day 3 starts and I announce I lied about who I was jailing, and jailed the same person I jailed night one. wolves were taken in by my lie, and they murdered the same target, both mafia families (two of them) whiffed.

I dunked a mafia day 3. it was a member of the other mafia family, back to back, with no town deaths in between.

Now my doctor loves my crazy ass, and we dunk a third mafia on day 4, and another one on day 5, and the mafia cant find my doctor and murder me.

We sweep the whole game, 6 wolves in a row, dead.

He reveals he was my doctor the whole time. And he might not have even ever protected me, if not for realizing he was town late day 1 and apologizing for sussing him and his friend.

Merely for being friendly with each other.

It's moments like that.... where you dont know a person. theyre a total stranger. and suddenly something happens, and a spark.

And youre just friends for life.

That man never stopped being my friend, even 5 years later, and that was the only game we ever played together.


Thats what brings me back to playing mafia, is the possibility that something like that could happen.

To new friends. Who are only strangers until they become our new friends.

cheers.

Like I said, I won't be on MU or certain other sites anymore for reasons.

I used to play on straight dope, but they turned their board into an infinite scroll, mobile friendly thing, and I just cant get used to playing mafia on it.

I hated it when people made the switch to xenforo forums for mafia playing, so I dont play on Novel Updates Forums or civilization fanatics forums anymore. I won't play on super toxic sites, either.

I have a list of sites I won't play on. And unless I find a place to call home I probably hang it up.

BUT.

I did get to randomly meet you, ekko, and have a blasty blast sweeping up a town. I did get to play that sub in game over on OLF where I made the game less toxic and accused all the wolves and townread all the townies.

Got to know fujishiro a lot better.

Met so many wonderful folks here.

That's what keeps me going, is the possibility of new fast friends. That always reignites the spark.

Sometimes the spark for the game fades, and there isn't a bunch of new friends.

Old friends move on.

Forums die, due to inactivity or toxicity, or bad staff.

Life goes on. Everything is temporary, and everything fades over time.

But temporary can still be a long time, and friends for life, even if life is temporary, feels like forever.

So, that's my thoughts

Being a wolf, has ABSOLUTELY lost its spark, for its own sake. but I got to forge friends with you and Rohan, and live up to Michelle's foreshadowing that she had found a "monster" to replace your inactive partner.

That's fun, of a sort.

But really, the fun I find is randing town, and protecting them from bad accusations, and dunking wolves with them, and forming memories that way.

Every town rand is a new adventure.

As someone who has burned out from playing at least 10 times, retired from playing at least that many times.

I know you can run out of gas, or desire to play, or fall out of love with it.

Even break up entirely with whole forums full of folks you used to enjoy playing with.

But the journey and the adventure and the friendships never end, if there's a new spark, new places, new people, new situations.

For however longer I play, or you do, I look at each single mafia game as if it might be my last.

Each new friend I make, might be the last new friend I make, over a 17 year mafia playing career.

But it might not be the last memory, or the last game, or the last new friend.

And if it is for you, or it is for me, you still have the good times to look back on.

As the final comic panel of the final Calvin and Hobbes comic said, and I never forgot-

Spoiler: big image

My brain memory is bad. So, I write down everything, keep links to everything. Archive everything, so I can go back and read all the stories we wrote together by accident and on purpose.

I can see all the friends long gone, and the memories that have faded.

And each one is special enough to me that reliving it is ever so special, and I think, wow. I'd love to go on that roller coaster again with them. Or with someone new.

So the town mystery still appeals. New friends do. New places do. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

But it's a magical world to explore, one more time, each and every time.

@EkkoLoJinx

It took me few seconds just to scroll these two posts

 

[Ratchet]

I can recommend a site or two, I will DM you.

Would also be interested in this. Might not join immediately but nice to have.

 

[Michelle]

I can recommend a site or two, I will DM you.

Would also be interested in this. Might not join immediately but nice to have.

Yeah, same!

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

Yeah, same!

Would also be interested in this. Might not join immediately but nice to have.

you stalkers! whole idea is to play with different people, we can't bring the squad

 

[Michelle]

you stalkers! whole idea is to play with different people, we can't bring the squad

I always played with different people in many sites. I wish to know what Waluigi’s preferences are.
Also don't be selfish, in a new playerslist you need someone to say: "i know this guy, he's 100% town"

 

[Ratchet]

you stalkers! whole idea is to play with different people, we can't bring the squad

I mean I wouldn't be using "Ratchet" so...

 

[Hayumi]

I can recommend a site or two, I will DM you.

Yeah, same!

same tee hee

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

I mean I wouldn't be using "Ratchet" so...

i just got an evil idea