Controversial Why don't more people Complain about Zoro pulling out Haki during his Fight with Das Bonez?
- Thread starter Dettles
- Start date
I would say Haki was introduced the moment they started discussing voices, so Zoro was demonstrating it in that very scene.
1) He dodged falling debris
- Observation Haki
2) He cut steel because he learned the voice of it
- An innate understanding about the world constitutes spiritual growth. In doing so, his use of armaments became critically improved.
The first point is practically indisputable, and the second point is bordering on ambiguity. I understand this, but the second point is also correct in how it applied mechanically.
1) He dodged falling debris
- Observation Haki
2) He cut steel because he learned the voice of it
- An innate understanding about the world constitutes spiritual growth. In doing so, his use of armaments became critically improved.
The first point is practically indisputable, and the second point is bordering on ambiguity. I understand this, but the second point is also correct in how it applied mechanically.
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I was on your side for a bit (because I forgot about those Wano panels), but you have to admit that Oda retconned that scene into being haki after you see that Wano panel.
Meaning: Zoro used haki in pre timeskip.
Probably not consistently, but in clutch moments like against Mr 1, Zoro used armament haki to cut through his iron.
So yes, from that perspective, Zoro could injure logias too.
However, Oda didn't have haki though out back then, and this is just a retcon.
So it's a weird situation.
Pre timeskip Oda would have never made Zoro injure a logia.
But if we look at Zoro vs Mr 1 scenario from a Post-Wano framework, then technically Zoro should be able to injure a logia if he uses the same haki he used against Mr 1
Whether you like it or not, retcons are part of the author's vision, and the author's vision transcends your own vision. So if Oda retrospectively decided that Zoro used haki during his fight with Mr 1, then you should accept it.
Meaning: Zoro used haki in pre timeskip.
Probably not consistently, but in clutch moments like against Mr 1, Zoro used armament haki to cut through his iron.
So yes, from that perspective, Zoro could injure logias too.
However, Oda didn't have haki though out back then, and this is just a retcon.
So it's a weird situation.
Pre timeskip Oda would have never made Zoro injure a logia.
But if we look at Zoro vs Mr 1 scenario from a Post-Wano framework, then technically Zoro should be able to injure a logia if he uses the same haki he used against Mr 1
Whether you like it or not, retcons are part of the author's vision, and the author's vision transcends your own vision. So if Oda retrospectively decided that Zoro used haki during his fight with Mr 1, then you should accept it.
Haki is a retcon. The fact that you don't need the understanding of Haki at all for context makes it irrelevant to that reading experience, unless your experience came after learning about Haki. In that case, though, your understanding would be incompatible with how the story was written at the time.
My position is that Haki is not a retcon. The argument that Haki is a retcon relies on the visual element of Armament Haki not being seen.
The point of concern is Marineford Arc where Whitebeard's crew and Shanks' crew and high-ranking Marines should've been using it. For example, like when Shanks stopped Akainu without using Armament Haki on his sword.
That can be called 1 of 2 things
1) It was a retcon because his Hakiless sword should've melted.
2) If it's not a retcon, then it's just an awkward transition between pre-timeskip concepts to post-timeskip concepts.
In option 1, you have to assume Oda forgot Shanks' sword was supposed to melt. However, it was so deliberate that it's hard to believe that.
If the audience's perception is meant to evolve with the protagonist, then the changing visuals are a feature of the storytelling, not a bug. In other words, the very reason we couldn't see stuff like that was because we shared the perception of Luffy, and Luffy hadn't been taught that yet. He couldn't see it, so we couldn't either as readers.
The point of concern is Marineford Arc where Whitebeard's crew and Shanks' crew and high-ranking Marines should've been using it. For example, like when Shanks stopped Akainu without using Armament Haki on his sword.
That can be called 1 of 2 things
1) It was a retcon because his Hakiless sword should've melted.
2) If it's not a retcon, then it's just an awkward transition between pre-timeskip concepts to post-timeskip concepts.
In option 1, you have to assume Oda forgot Shanks' sword was supposed to melt. However, it was so deliberate that it's hard to believe that.
If the audience's perception is meant to evolve with the protagonist, then the changing visuals are a feature of the storytelling, not a bug. In other words, the very reason we couldn't see stuff like that was because we shared the perception of Luffy, and Luffy hadn't been taught that yet. He couldn't see it, so we couldn't either as readers.
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We can't speak for the author though, you're assuming that he created Logias without creating their counter, you're assuming back then He didn't think of Haki even though its literally mentioned by Blackbeard on their next Island couple volumes after Mr. 1 Fight,
You're assuming Zoro unlocked Observation Haki in that fight, even though He couldn't sense Ohm behind the wall in following Arc, same Arc where their opponents had Mantra,
That Wano Panel simply confirms what Koushirou taught Zoro, but nothing says that's how Zoro achieved such Feats,
Why don't you apply your logic the other way, who did you see talk about Breath coming from objects beside Zoro?
Koushirou talked about a Feat, He didn't explain how it's achieved, then Hyogoro said that They have a Power which is Adv. CoA that allows them to perform such Feat, nothing says its the only way,
Zoro also against Mr. 1 didn't just learn how to Cut him, He also mastered one-sword style, sword draw technique, and following arc revealed He cd send flying slashes too, that means against Mr. 1, Zoro learned both Gentle Blade and Strong Blade Masteries, is that Haki too?
My point is, no need to assume everything we can't answer as a retconn, just be patient and we will learn how such Feats were possible,
Zoro already explained it as Breath Sensing, neither Wano nor another Arc explained how can things have their own Breath without being touched even though only living beings have Haki.
You're assuming Zoro unlocked Observation Haki in that fight, even though He couldn't sense Ohm behind the wall in following Arc, same Arc where their opponents had Mantra,
That Wano Panel simply confirms what Koushirou taught Zoro, but nothing says that's how Zoro achieved such Feats,
Why don't you apply your logic the other way, who did you see talk about Breath coming from objects beside Zoro?
Koushirou talked about a Feat, He didn't explain how it's achieved, then Hyogoro said that They have a Power which is Adv. CoA that allows them to perform such Feat, nothing says its the only way,
Zoro also against Mr. 1 didn't just learn how to Cut him, He also mastered one-sword style, sword draw technique, and following arc revealed He cd send flying slashes too, that means against Mr. 1, Zoro learned both Gentle Blade and Strong Blade Masteries, is that Haki too?
My point is, no need to assume everything we can't answer as a retconn, just be patient and we will learn how such Feats were possible,
Zoro already explained it as Breath Sensing, neither Wano nor another Arc explained how can things have their own Breath without being touched even though only living beings have Haki.
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It goes..
"Oda had the core concept but he didn't fully know what he was going to do it with it yet."
This is not proof in of itself that it is true, and it acknowledges that Haki was present in some form pre-timeskip. It also suggests he knows what he's doing with it currently.
When you say Oda didn't know yet, it creates a crutch. It means anything he did before wasn't fully planned and anything he does now is supposed to be perfectly explained. However, we get surprises about Haki frequently, and people constantly say Oda didn't plan it and he still doesn't know what he's doing with it.
It creates an extreme bias where we can constantly say Oda doesn't know what he's doing and never has, so we can spin it any way we want to since he's such an unreliable author (from that point of view).
How about this one?
If Haki didn't exist and wasn't planned, what's the deal with Mihawk's Black Blade to begin with? How the hell did it turn black? Are we supposed to assume someone painted it LOL
I think this is turning into conspiracy theory stuff and the object of the conspiracy is itself unreliable. This is funny because then people start saying stuff like...
"Wow, Oda is so lazy, look at how he retroactively twisted the story to make it look like he planned it. He's just making it up as he goes!"
He's so unreliable that any foreshadowing is now suspicious of being used in a conspiracy.
"Oda had the core concept but he didn't fully know what he was going to do it with it yet."
This is not proof in of itself that it is true, and it acknowledges that Haki was present in some form pre-timeskip. It also suggests he knows what he's doing with it currently.
When you say Oda didn't know yet, it creates a crutch. It means anything he did before wasn't fully planned and anything he does now is supposed to be perfectly explained. However, we get surprises about Haki frequently, and people constantly say Oda didn't plan it and he still doesn't know what he's doing with it.
It creates an extreme bias where we can constantly say Oda doesn't know what he's doing and never has, so we can spin it any way we want to since he's such an unreliable author (from that point of view).
How about this one?
If Haki didn't exist and wasn't planned, what's the deal with Mihawk's Black Blade to begin with? How the hell did it turn black? Are we supposed to assume someone painted it LOL
I think this is turning into conspiracy theory stuff and the object of the conspiracy is itself unreliable. This is funny because then people start saying stuff like...
"Wow, Oda is so lazy, look at how he retroactively twisted the story to make it look like he planned it. He's just making it up as he goes!"
He's so unreliable that any foreshadowing is now suspicious of being used in a conspiracy.
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