Worstgen
Cinera
My main update from this is that I would give less credibility to Doffy being above all YCs bar the YC 1s. Basically, YC 1.5 Doflamingo is now less credible (I wasn't that serious an advocate of this before and had placed him below Lucky Roo and Queen in my tier list). I think I'm now more confident in placing Doffy somewhere in the YC 2 category. I guess my major update would be too revise a two armed Jozu upwards.
Cinera
There's not much reason to place him below the other YC 2s because he was stopped by Doffy.
comrade
Would Jozu be able to counter parasite in a 1 on 1 vs. Doffy? Sanji is very fast and has a high level of CoO, yet, even though he was facing Doffy 1 on 1, he got caught in parasite immediately. How would Jozu avoid parasite? Especially if Doffy is spamming awakening from all sides to distract Jozu? He could also turn the ground into strings to restrain Jozu.
Cinera
@Sentinel: regarding Kuzan, @silverfire has a very good post on it. To summarise the most pertinent parts:
* Jozu was also warned before Kuzan froze him.
* Kuzan being merciful/deliberately sandbagging his attack on Doflamingo is mainly fannon at this point. We weren't really told that his attack on Doffy was that much weaker than his attack on Jozu.
* Jozu was also warned before Kuzan froze him.
* Kuzan being merciful/deliberately sandbagging his attack on Doflamingo is mainly fannon at this point. We weren't really told that his attack on Doffy was that much weaker than his attack on Jozu.
LANJI CUCKSMOKE
very true cinera and very consistent. In whatever case doffy would be a bad matchup for jozu but he isnt above jozu in powerlevel yc3 max.
Cinera
I am aware of your counterargument though, and it's why I don't favour Doffy that much on the basis of the Kuzan encounter. I guess the best I can do for now is placing Jozu at the step below Doffy. Jozu has never looked better than Doffy, but there are some instances where Doffy plausibly looked better. Placing Jozu above Doffy despite that would be pretty perverse.
Cinera
@LANJI CUCKSMOKE I don't agree with YC 3 max. YC 3 max for Base Doffy maybe. His awakening was a massive combat ability boost for him (an ability that the YCs below YC 1) have yet to demonstrate.
Cinera
Base Doffy was decisively superior to Dressrosa Law, and Dressrosa Law should have been at least as strong as Urouge. So on the higher end of the YC 4 range. Base Doffy may have already been a mid high tier (on the lower end), or at least at the peak of low high tier. I still don't find YC 3 plausible for Doffy. Not while Doffy has such a huge trump card in awakening and was already very strong in Base.
comrade
Luffy, upon gaining FS, surpassed Katakuri. That in turn would mean that non FS (but basic CoO) Katakuri is below Dressrosa Luffy. Especially since he would benefit from FS even more with shapeshifting. At the same time it was clear that DR Luffy was clearly inferior to Doffy. Even post Gamma Knife, Doffy waited for 3 boundman attacks before activating awakening in a barely conscious state.
comrade
And still he outperformed G4, with Luffy, after losing G4, being barely conscious, wobbling and being unable to stand. While against Katakuri, he could still goof around and run away, despite receiving 2 power mochis before G4 ran out.
LANJI CUCKSMOKE
I am basing this off a variety of factors .
1. each yc luffy faced demonstrated better coa than luffy with katakuri having the massive edge in coo as well.
2. cracker is not confirmed to be awakened however his ability could be produced from the environment hours on end with little drawback. Keep in mind these biscuits aside from a water nerf needed a kong gun to break through them. tb continued.
1. each yc luffy faced demonstrated better coa than luffy with katakuri having the massive edge in coo as well.
2. cracker is not confirmed to be awakened however his ability could be produced from the environment hours on end with little drawback. Keep in mind these biscuits aside from a water nerf needed a kong gun to break through them. tb continued.
LANJI CUCKSMOKE
You had luffy do relatively fine with doffy in both g2 and g3rd > he was able to deal damage in both forms against doffy but they werent fatal. in stark contrast to how katakuri and cracker handled his other forms aside from g4 specifically cracker it was renderred useless. Lastly cracker matched doffy's feat of out lasting g4 and would have done so multiple times if his biscuits were not nerfed.
Cinera
@comrade I don't agree to the above. I think Luffy made more gains than just FS. For one, haki and one's abilities become stronger during very difficult battles. Before Katakuri Luffy had two very difficult battles with Doflamingo and with Cracker. I think the Luffy that fought Katakuri was already significantly stronger than the Luffy that fought Doflamingo.
comrade
G2/G3 Luffy had no chance against Doffy. When healthy, he was dodging and counter attacking easily. Only right after Gamma Knife, Luffy could lay a hand on him for a bit, until Doffy adjusted and started dodging and counter attacking again.
LANJI CUCKSMOKE
Doffy didnt have any highlighted mastery in either coa or coo. the two yc commanders were able to somewhat match his awakening feat. I dont believe a fight between doffy and cracker is anything less than an extreme diff fight. add to this stronger yc3 perhaps Lucky roo and jack who is much more of an endurance monster than doffy is. Yc3 is about right.
comrade
@Cinera I think it is usually hinted when someone becomes stronger (Zoro pointing out be became stronger, Daz pointing out Zoro grew, us seeing Luffy doing active training). When Luffy had the flashback of Rayleigh telling him about Haki blooming in extreme situations, it was only when he was learning FS. But there was no such thing against Doffy. And against Cracker, he was goofing around. Trying to wear him down
LANJI CUCKSMOKE
g2/g3 specifically g2 did deal significant damage to doffy .
I can get panels for that, however they werent fatal . doffy lamented saying one form was fast and the ther had power but lacked speed. against katakuri and cracker g2/g3 looked even worse. with cracker he went g4 literal minutes into the fight. cracker took an elephant gun much better than kaido did pushing him to the ground. he literally smashed luffy in.
I can get panels for that, however they werent fatal . doffy lamented saying one form was fast and the ther had power but lacked speed. against katakuri and cracker g2/g3 looked even worse. with cracker he went g4 literal minutes into the fight. cracker took an elephant gun much better than kaido did pushing him to the ground. he literally smashed luffy in.