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"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the People's Stick." Bakunin, guy who was libertarian socialist counter-part to Marx in his time

You can because libertarian socialism's action plan is literally make strong unions and strong worker co-ops, it's not the "take over the state and be a dictator" leninist action plan

You are projecting authoritarianism onto me when I'm a libertarian socialist I explained the difference

@Roo In socialism, there is no feudal lord and no capitalist, the workers themselves own the land and they become the share holders, and they decide things together and run it democratically But there are 2 main schools of socialist thought: Authoritarian socialism, Marx, Engels, Lenin...

This is projection

Yeah but they are small capital holders

But wouldn't it be better for all of you? And yeah you would have that option in a socialist society, just nobody would want to join a capitalist enterprise if they had the choice of a worker co-op They're rare in capitalism though

It's only an oversimplification if you consider the working class owning 0.01% of a company relevant

I mean @Roo would it not be better for you and all your coworkers if you guys got all the profits and ran the company democratically together?

Socialist praxis But so what I said in the explanation of capitalism and socialism wasn't a mistake

If things were like you're implying, america would be in a socialist economy, workers would own their companies and make the decisions democratically How many workers go to stockholder meetings and vote? 0 Why? Because the working class owning 00.01% of a company is irelevant

Yes they are owned that way

Let me find a meme, I'll try to find it, it describes your argument perfectly @Roo I guess it makes sense because you mentioned supporting libertarianism specifically before _______ It was a libertarian meme of a guy saying "Of course I believe in owning the means of production, I...

I think you did not understand my message 99.9% of stock in a company is NOT owned by workers, it IS owned by people whose wealth comes PURELY from owning capital

This is like peasants owning their homes Yeah man you own your home, but 99.9% of the space, is owned by lords who get their wealth by extracting the value you produce by working the land

This is ridiculous dude, 99.9% of stocks are NOT owned by workers I didn't say 99.9% of workers aren't tiny stockholders I said 99.9% of stockholders AREN'T workers Or more specifically, 99.9% is NOT owned by people who work for a living

To put this into feudalism Some feudal lords may have worked the land too Same thing

Come on though man 99.9% of stockholders aren't workers And the argument that capitalism is exploitative comes in big part from the extraction of surplus value capitalists do

That part is semantycs, they do no production, no planning, etc They may make decisions on where to invest their capital, but company employees are the ones who actually manage the capital that stockholders invest

Well I guess MZTS still has me on ignore but @Roo if you're interested what do you think of my breakdown of socialism?