Welcome gentlemen to a Lee thread long overdue, where today we are going to talk about the big man himself, arguably the strongest Great General in all of China at the moment, the big papa himself, the Tiger of Chu and Conqueror of the East, Great General Kou En of Chu:
^Canonical appearance
I’ve talked a lot Kou En in the past but today we’re going to attempt to put a definitive level on this guy based on the information we have currently.
“But Lee,” you are saying. “Kou En’s name has only been spoken like twice in the entire manga, how can we possibly scale him?”
Well, I believe we have enough information on Kou En to actually make some safe speculations as to exactly how powerful Kou En is. Obviously this is a speculation thread but we’re going to have some fun regardless.
Let’s do this!
Part 1: The Conqueror of the East
So this is a title that always interested me, and I’ve pointed this out a few times in less formal ways but we’re actually going to make the point again in this thread.
So Kou En is obviously the “Conqueror of the East.” What does that mean exactly? Well, obviously this title implies Kou En conquered a ton of territory in Eastern Chu. This appears to be a dead end lead until you realize what exactly Eastern Chu used to be:
Eastern Chu = the former southern Super State Qi.
So, who cares right? Kou En maybe possibly conquered Southern Qi during the time when Gakuki formed the anti-Qi Coalition. A cool detail perhaps, but what point are you trying to make exactly, Lee?
Well, we have only one other example of how powerful the random territories of an ex-Superstate can be:
The territory of Juukou was literally powerful enough to give two Qin 6 and a Wei 7 a fairly hard battle.
Juukou was not some key army of Chu, it was an important strategic stronghold but otherwise this seems to really just be a standard Chu territory. It was even said at one point that you probably can’t go far in Chu without running into guys like the Juukou gang, ex-GGs and Supreme Commanders of conquered territories.
So, what if southern Qi was the same way? What if southern Qi was also filled with ex-GGs and Supreme Commanders of conquered territories? It’s possible right? Chu and Qi both being super-states and all.
If this is the case, then this would mean Kou En is literally credited with conquering an entire region (like 5% of all of China) filled with Juukou-esque territories. You scared yet? Well we are really just getting started.
Part 2: Karin
So the best way to scale a guy who has almost zero information revealed definitively is to scale him relative to characters we know for a fact that he is superior to. That means that yes, it is time to discuss Karin and Kanmei. Kou En is Chu’s number 1 ranked Great General, meaning he outranked both Karin and Kanmei in the Chu hierarchy. Kouretsu described sending Karin and Kanmei to the Coalition War was him “being stingy,” because in the words of Renpa:
Kou En was really the guy who Chu should have sent to lead the whole Coalition force as Kanmei’s superior.
Now I could just post a bunch of feats of Karin’s and be like “look how crazy this is!” But that would be somewhat pointless and vague.
Instead I’m going to try and post some feats of Karin’s, and then explain why I believe her to be a commander overall relative in level to Tou and Moubu, or perhaps even superior to them. Let’s just start typing and see how this goes lmfao.
Now, Shunshinkun described Karin as a “genius”, and Riboku later described her as “the real deal.” However, these are pretty vague comments. Ouki referred to Fuuki as “extremely brilliant” hours before Ouki’s strategy would ultimately claim Fuuki’s life, so statements like these don’t always tell us exactly how the subject would fair compared to the person making the statement.
That said, the overall complexity or Karin’s warfare completely took a shit on everybody else present during the Coalition army. Yes, that includes Ousen even if Ousen ultimately was the one who bested her Kankoku Pass plan. Let’s go over just how complex Karin’s moves were during the Coalition War:
Step 1: unleash African War elephants (WTF) to reap devastation on the Kanou and Rokuomi armies:
purely as a distraction:
In order to set the Tou army up for a combination double-pincer/Wave attack combo:
Step 2: personally charge the Tou army with your main army, again as a distraction:
A main army so strong that even one of the mightiest units of the Ouki army could not even make them flinch with a pincer attack (Shibashou vibes):
While also being aware of a flank attack despite not looking in that direction:
Step 3: Learn that Moubu might make it to Kanmei and intentionally doing nothing:
Step 4: Corner Moubu like a rat and kill him:
While (correctly tbh) pointing out that honor duels are stupid and claiming that you will “handle” a berserk Kanmei:
Step 5: casually order your superiors to calm the fuck down after Kanmei’s death:
Step 6: Reveal that the entire fucking thing was a feint in order to fall Kankoku pass which wasn’t even your orders:
Step 7: Claim superiority over Riboku and Shunshinkun
Step 8: Get Buttfucked by Ousen
Honestly no other Coalition Commander showed anything even close to this in terms of the amount of feints, distractions, and deceptions all being pulled off on a grand scale. Additionally, only Karin and Ousen had the foresight to recognize that their true goals were not the enemies in front of them, but Kankoku Pass itself.
I am confident in saying that Karin is a Qin 6/Zhao 3 level commander. The amount of times she deceived the likes of Tou, manipulated the entire Qin vs Chu battle, stepped outside of her role as the Chu second in Command and instead usurped the entire Coalition War, and the complexity involved in her strategies in comparison to other Qin 6 level commanders just solidly puts her solidly on that level.
And so now I remind you all of the purpose of this thread, that Kou En is above Karin in the Chu hierarchy.
Now in case anyone here is under the mistaken belief that Karin is actually better than Kou En since she was named the commander of the Chu military, this is false. Karin was named the commander of the Chu military because she has an army of 300k personally loyal to her (btw, wtaf):
After the Coalition War, Karin was promoted to Chu GG #2, meaning she was still ranked below Kou En after all of China had seen her in action.
Karin also definitely seemed to view Kou En in a more serious light than she viewed Kanmei:
Which could be an indicator that she acknowledges Kou En as superior to herself. With Kanmei, there was always that notion that Karin really wasn’t that intimidated by him and viewed him as relative to her, but with Kou En she seems to take him more seriously.
VERDICT: Karin is Qin 6/Zhao 3 level and Kou En is above even her.
Part 3: Kanmei
Now I already did a whole thread on Kanmei so I would encourage you to check out that thread for a deeper breakdown. For now I’ll just hit the highlights.
Weight of a Great General:
The only commander in Kingdom other than Hakuki to claim 100 victories for his state without losing even once:
Appears to have one shot (or at least defeated) Oukotsu of the legendary Qin 6:
I don’t think it is controversial to say that Kanmei is definitively above Qin 6 level from what we know,
And Kanmei is seemingly universally considered to be an inferior commander to Kou En.
Part 4: Verdict
Now, if we dive into history spoilers there’s obviously a lot, a lot more to say here but we’re going to keep this post 100% manga-centric. I am confident that Kou En is a commander definitively above the Qin 6/Zhao 3 level. Here are a brief list of generals who I believe we can say Kou En is superior to with certainty or near certainty:
Kanmei
Karin
Moubu
Tou
Here are characters who I think we can by proxy say Kou En is above based on their proximity to those above:
Kanki
Yotanwa
Every old Qin 6 bar maybe Hakuki?
And here are characters who I believe it’s more debatable but Kou En is highly likely still above:
Ousen
Renpa
Ouki
Shouheikun
Rinshoujou
Shibashou
And here are characters I think Kou En is either equal to or maybe weaker than:
Godboku
With history spoilers there is much more to say here but for now, this is what I believe can be reasonably inferred about Kou En.
What do you guys think?
@Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @Blackbeard @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @RayanOO @Rumble @Greenbeard @Dark Admiral @Jailer @Peroroncino @Monet @Topi Jerami @Shanks @Cichy @Bullet @mmd @Yo Tan Wa @𝓓𝓡 . 𝕋𝒆ñ𝐦𝐚 @Darkrai1381 @tcb @Pirao @Luffy is the mc @Warchief Sanji D Goat @Bepo @Daniel @Pot Goblin @centurion @Ou Zen @GUI VI @Alexis2282AE @Ousen
^Canonical appearance
I’ve talked a lot Kou En in the past but today we’re going to attempt to put a definitive level on this guy based on the information we have currently.
“But Lee,” you are saying. “Kou En’s name has only been spoken like twice in the entire manga, how can we possibly scale him?”
Well, I believe we have enough information on Kou En to actually make some safe speculations as to exactly how powerful Kou En is. Obviously this is a speculation thread but we’re going to have some fun regardless.
Let’s do this!
Part 1: The Conqueror of the East
So this is a title that always interested me, and I’ve pointed this out a few times in less formal ways but we’re actually going to make the point again in this thread.
So Kou En is obviously the “Conqueror of the East.” What does that mean exactly? Well, obviously this title implies Kou En conquered a ton of territory in Eastern Chu. This appears to be a dead end lead until you realize what exactly Eastern Chu used to be:
Eastern Chu = the former southern Super State Qi.
So, who cares right? Kou En maybe possibly conquered Southern Qi during the time when Gakuki formed the anti-Qi Coalition. A cool detail perhaps, but what point are you trying to make exactly, Lee?
Well, we have only one other example of how powerful the random territories of an ex-Superstate can be:
The territory of Juukou was literally powerful enough to give two Qin 6 and a Wei 7 a fairly hard battle.
Juukou was not some key army of Chu, it was an important strategic stronghold but otherwise this seems to really just be a standard Chu territory. It was even said at one point that you probably can’t go far in Chu without running into guys like the Juukou gang, ex-GGs and Supreme Commanders of conquered territories.
So, what if southern Qi was the same way? What if southern Qi was also filled with ex-GGs and Supreme Commanders of conquered territories? It’s possible right? Chu and Qi both being super-states and all.
If this is the case, then this would mean Kou En is literally credited with conquering an entire region (like 5% of all of China) filled with Juukou-esque territories. You scared yet? Well we are really just getting started.
Part 2: Karin
So the best way to scale a guy who has almost zero information revealed definitively is to scale him relative to characters we know for a fact that he is superior to. That means that yes, it is time to discuss Karin and Kanmei. Kou En is Chu’s number 1 ranked Great General, meaning he outranked both Karin and Kanmei in the Chu hierarchy. Kouretsu described sending Karin and Kanmei to the Coalition War was him “being stingy,” because in the words of Renpa:
Kou En was really the guy who Chu should have sent to lead the whole Coalition force as Kanmei’s superior.
Now I could just post a bunch of feats of Karin’s and be like “look how crazy this is!” But that would be somewhat pointless and vague.
Instead I’m going to try and post some feats of Karin’s, and then explain why I believe her to be a commander overall relative in level to Tou and Moubu, or perhaps even superior to them. Let’s just start typing and see how this goes lmfao.
Now, Shunshinkun described Karin as a “genius”, and Riboku later described her as “the real deal.” However, these are pretty vague comments. Ouki referred to Fuuki as “extremely brilliant” hours before Ouki’s strategy would ultimately claim Fuuki’s life, so statements like these don’t always tell us exactly how the subject would fair compared to the person making the statement.
That said, the overall complexity or Karin’s warfare completely took a shit on everybody else present during the Coalition army. Yes, that includes Ousen even if Ousen ultimately was the one who bested her Kankoku Pass plan. Let’s go over just how complex Karin’s moves were during the Coalition War:
Step 1: unleash African War elephants (WTF) to reap devastation on the Kanou and Rokuomi armies:
purely as a distraction:
In order to set the Tou army up for a combination double-pincer/Wave attack combo:
Step 2: personally charge the Tou army with your main army, again as a distraction:
A main army so strong that even one of the mightiest units of the Ouki army could not even make them flinch with a pincer attack (Shibashou vibes):
While also being aware of a flank attack despite not looking in that direction:
Step 3: Learn that Moubu might make it to Kanmei and intentionally doing nothing:
Step 4: Corner Moubu like a rat and kill him:
While (correctly tbh) pointing out that honor duels are stupid and claiming that you will “handle” a berserk Kanmei:
Step 5: casually order your superiors to calm the fuck down after Kanmei’s death:
Step 6: Reveal that the entire fucking thing was a feint in order to fall Kankoku pass which wasn’t even your orders:
Step 7: Claim superiority over Riboku and Shunshinkun
Step 8: Get Buttfucked by Ousen
Honestly no other Coalition Commander showed anything even close to this in terms of the amount of feints, distractions, and deceptions all being pulled off on a grand scale. Additionally, only Karin and Ousen had the foresight to recognize that their true goals were not the enemies in front of them, but Kankoku Pass itself.
I am confident in saying that Karin is a Qin 6/Zhao 3 level commander. The amount of times she deceived the likes of Tou, manipulated the entire Qin vs Chu battle, stepped outside of her role as the Chu second in Command and instead usurped the entire Coalition War, and the complexity involved in her strategies in comparison to other Qin 6 level commanders just solidly puts her solidly on that level.
And so now I remind you all of the purpose of this thread, that Kou En is above Karin in the Chu hierarchy.
Now in case anyone here is under the mistaken belief that Karin is actually better than Kou En since she was named the commander of the Chu military, this is false. Karin was named the commander of the Chu military because she has an army of 300k personally loyal to her (btw, wtaf):
After the Coalition War, Karin was promoted to Chu GG #2, meaning she was still ranked below Kou En after all of China had seen her in action.
Karin also definitely seemed to view Kou En in a more serious light than she viewed Kanmei:
Which could be an indicator that she acknowledges Kou En as superior to herself. With Kanmei, there was always that notion that Karin really wasn’t that intimidated by him and viewed him as relative to her, but with Kou En she seems to take him more seriously.
VERDICT: Karin is Qin 6/Zhao 3 level and Kou En is above even her.
Part 3: Kanmei
Now I already did a whole thread on Kanmei so I would encourage you to check out that thread for a deeper breakdown. For now I’ll just hit the highlights.
Weight of a Great General:
The only commander in Kingdom other than Hakuki to claim 100 victories for his state without losing even once:
Appears to have one shot (or at least defeated) Oukotsu of the legendary Qin 6:
I don’t think it is controversial to say that Kanmei is definitively above Qin 6 level from what we know,
And Kanmei is seemingly universally considered to be an inferior commander to Kou En.
Part 4: Verdict
Now, if we dive into history spoilers there’s obviously a lot, a lot more to say here but we’re going to keep this post 100% manga-centric. I am confident that Kou En is a commander definitively above the Qin 6/Zhao 3 level. Here are a brief list of generals who I believe we can say Kou En is superior to with certainty or near certainty:
Kanmei
Karin
Moubu
Tou
Here are characters who I think we can by proxy say Kou En is above based on their proximity to those above:
Kanki
Yotanwa
Every old Qin 6 bar maybe Hakuki?
And here are characters who I believe it’s more debatable but Kou En is highly likely still above:
Ousen
Renpa
Ouki
Shouheikun
Rinshoujou
Shibashou
And here are characters I think Kou En is either equal to or maybe weaker than:
Godboku
With history spoilers there is much more to say here but for now, this is what I believe can be reasonably inferred about Kou En.
What do you guys think?
@Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @Blackbeard @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @RayanOO @Rumble @Greenbeard @Dark Admiral @Jailer @Peroroncino @Monet @Topi Jerami @Shanks @Cichy @Bullet @mmd @Yo Tan Wa @𝓓𝓡 . 𝕋𝒆ñ𝐦𝐚 @Darkrai1381 @tcb @Pirao @Luffy is the mc @Warchief Sanji D Goat @Bepo @Daniel @Pot Goblin @centurion @Ou Zen @GUI VI @Alexis2282AE @Ousen
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