Questions & Mysteries About Roger-Kaido Haki level

[HerreraIsBack]

Both roger and Kaido have split the sky with their haki and both have ability to coat conqueror's haki.

If roger's haki is 100 what is Kaido's haki level?

Is hard to say because we don't know the full extent of Roger powers and there isn't a clear comparison between them two.

What we know is that Kaido has what we call advanced conqueror and advanced observation, we don't know about advanced armament.

And Roger only has advanced conqueror.

So I'd put Kaido's haki to be better skilled than Roger but that doesn't mean it is stronger. When talking about conqueror, physical strength is all that matters. In this case I have to give the edge to Roger for better performance against Domi Reversi Xebec.

 

[MonsterKaido]

Is hard to say because we don't know the full extent of Roger powers and there isn't a clear comparison between them two.

What we know is that Kaido has what we call advanced conqueror and advanced observation, we don't know about advanced armament.

And Roger only has advanced conqueror.

So I'd put Kaido's haki to be better skilled than Roger but that doesn't mean it is stronger. When talking about conqueror, physical strength is all that matters. In this case I have to give the edge to Roger for better performance against Domi Reversi Xebec.

 

[Kiri]

I think it should be interpreted that way because it is now obvious that Oda never had any intention of lifting Roger above others.
At least not when it comes to individual strength.

Yes, the new gen in 20 years is about the prophecy but you forget that Oden knows the strength of Roger and Whitebeard first hand, he fought both of them, he is very much aware that if he fails, nobody else is strong enough to kill Kaido either.
And then you add in the context of Oden returning many times stronger and called by author invicnible and triumphant as well as author saying that might of Kozuki Oden surpassed Kaido's expectations while treating him as mighty pirate like Roger and WB, as well as Oden's own statement that his sword style is the best there is and the fact that Oda chose only him to leave a scar on Kaido...
...there is only one logical conclusion to this - Kaido>Oden>rest of the old generation.

"you forget that Oden knows the strength of Roger and Whitebeard first hand" I didn't forget, I made this argument countless times. You just agreed the prophecy is about the new gen being the one to do it. This still doesn't prove this MUST MEAN Oden thinks Roger and WB won't do it, because they are weaker than he is. All you have done is spoken for the character. You can't prove this objectively.

"And then you add in the context of Oden returning many times stronger and called by author invicnible and triumphant " - I understand this as well. Over the voyage he got stronger. Surpassing Kaido's expectations and Kaido giving him respect, these things aren't clear indicators that Oden has surpassed Roger and WB. In fact you saying "like Roger and WB" isn't "More than Roger and WB". This doesn't show Oden is > Roger and WB either

Odens swordsmanship being stronger is a self proclamation, not a confirmation.

You use language like "I'm telling you what the author said" or "the narration confirms this", but your stance does not come from objective facts. My reply was to show you your interpretation is not an objective one. I used to have your interpretation, until I realised in the context of a prophecy it does not Have to mean anyone in Oden's time is incapable, only that they aren't the prophesised to do it, Joyboy is.

And this is obviously heavily tied to the narrative, it's common sense this is the explanation for why Kaido wasn't taken down before Luffy got to him.

Coming back to Oden's proclamation, even if for the sake of argument I give you that Oden's swordsmanship is stronger. It doesn't guarantee Oden is stronger than Roger. All this would mean, is that if Roger learnt Oden's swordsmanship he'd have the potential to be more lethal. But you can still use a weaker sword style than someone and be stronger than them.

Look at Shanks, I think Shanks is not only stronger than Roger using his own swordsmanship, but is stronger than Oden, using Rogers swordsmanship. Which according to you must be inferior because Oden said so whilst knowing Roger. To me this just shows Oden's supreme confidence in his own abilities.

"the fact that Oda chose only him to leave a scar on Kaido..."- This is not a good argument. This makes sense from a narrative standpoint considering it's Oden's homeland being affected, and he is the daimyo. To Oden this was a kozuki matter, he wasn't going to accept help. Ofc he would be the one to scar Kaido in a direct confrontation where Kaido is the tyrant in his homeland.

The thing is you're using who leaves a scar on Kaido to be the prime indicator for portrayal. But when was Kaido stated to be this kind of objective marker? Just because a character scars Kaido defending his homeland, doesn't mean he must be stronger than a person who has not, especially when there is no direct comparison.

For example you can say he's stronger than Moria, because moria came back to do the same thing Oden did, and he failed to scar Kaido. Yet Roger or WB was narratively kept out of Wano's borders for a reason.

Roger even went out his way to avoid BM and simply stole her glyph, he didn't have to scar BM for example, he wasn't defending a country against her tyranny. Are we going to say Law and Kidd have better portrayal simply because they took her down when Roger didn't?

In fact Kaido is wanking Roger without Roger having ever scarred him in the narrative.

The point that doesn't seem to be getting across is, this prophecy on Oden's part cannot objectively be used as a method of scaling him about Roger and WB, when the prophecy never claims anyone outside of it is too weak, only that they are not the chosen ones to do it.

 

[Philosoraptor]

The problem I'm right now having is that a Sky split is a certain benchmark, that confirms a certain lvl, a lvl that we as fans consider solid top tier lvl or atleast mid top tier lvl or great pirate lvl, whatever one wants to call it.

I reject the notion with fans making the assertions that there is such a thing as adding sub-tiers among top tiers via low-top tier, mid- top tier. That junk never makes sense. It's a forced position so they can justify characters they are not impressed with to diminished their value according to the narrative or vise-versa where the perception over analyzes a characters strength to squeeze them up above.

For that it's a great and pretty much the only measuring stick, but what do we do, if guys -via portrayal (and feats) - should be considered above others, who were already sky splitting- similar to drunk Kaido. Via shuron hakke Kaido we know levels above are possible and in his case we got verbal confirmation, but otherwise it's difficult to deduct.

Shuron hakke is the only case to considered looking past the Sky splitting threshold because it was stated by verbatim to have an increase in haki.

So in context if we have a case to other characters being able to empower their haki even further then their threshold(sky-split) THEN we can considered otherwise.

IF NOT then we should start looking tit or tat. Like what are the user speed feat, their strengths, endurance/durability, what are the users techniques, how well is their combat speed, skills in said department, etc.

So what I think is, that we would do injustice to PK Roger and Primebeard and the whole FB Rogerbeard clash, when we would just look at the sky split phenomenon and basically scale them down at hand of it.

You are forced to say that because your paradigm has forced the narrative to treat these 2 as the creme of the crop as they received the most hype above all characters.

Your position is a matter of perception to the world and not in actuality.

To the World: becoming PK makes you the best of the best and the strongest of the strongest. So by perception you are the strongest. But in actuality we witnessed Roger's journey and the result wasn't him being able to overcome any characters by strength.

While Primebeard was the last person that made an encounter with Roger. So the perception is Primebeard was able to still live in his battle against the "PK" therefore is he the person closest to One Piece.

But to where the narrative has shared throughout the story, Primebeard had peer rivals who is just a powerful and dangerous as him.

It's not clear yet what Oda's going to do in order to portray lvls above that visually, but I think it's very likely that at these lvls of CoC power, the sky split visual basically makes up the base and then Oda can go the extra mile with added information and visuals.

I don't think so, it looks like overanalyzing so you can justified why Roger and Primebeard being "clear cut above the rest"

And I think he did so within the Rogerbeard clash. The whole island was shaking and ships at the coasts were capsizing, trees were flying around and stuff. It's just faaaar too much extra things he went for there and then it just so happens to be PK Roger and prolly WSM Primebeard he did it for.
For me personally it's clear Oda wanted to establish a new height for these two in specific - besides guys like DR Rocks and Joyboy ofc.

I believe Joyboy is the only person that demonstrated what it looks like to be above Emperor level characters. I'll explain DR Rocks below.

You mean it as: They all weren't equal yet, but the context tells us all of them have the same potential or in other words, all of them are going to peak at the same level..?

Correct

You don't consider Xebec's solo sky split special or superior to the conventional clash created sky splits?

I don't hold the position it was solo for Rocks. Although it is correct that this didn't happen until he over powered Roger and Garp. But I believe the process only happened because both Roger and Garp first tried to overpower Rocks first. The attack first start with Roger and Garps CoC's haki trying to breech Xebec's own haki. Xebec was forced to push right back. Thus it ended in this collision

This interpretation follows more align with the remainder of the chapter to where it need the combine force of Roger and Garp to overcome DR Xebec. And the only way to win was to overcome him and do a 3-way KO.

And just in order to get you right: For you it's basically: Drunk Kaido >~ DR Xebec ~ Primebeard ~ Prime Roger ~ Big Mom ~ sober Kaido ~ 1026 Luffy..?

Strictly their CoC's haki, yes