Yo, what's up? I'd say it's essay time.
This thing is a little longer than usual threads, but if you got the time, give it a try, it's definitely worth it :D
If you comment on it and I don't answer shortly afterwards, don't be mad at me, I'm pretty busy right now. I really just wanted to drop this thing- finally.
I you want to shorten the read, 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 would be the most important parts.
List of contents
1. Main thread
1.1 Introduction
1.2 Enma
1.3 Roger vs WB
1.4 A little powerscale
1.5 Conclusive thoughts
2. Additional thoughts: Roger's and WB's advCoAlvl2
1 Main thread
1.1 Introduction
We all know the term „advanced CoA“. It's going around as a known concept since Udon, where Hyo taught us something about the advanced applications of CoA.
The thing is, next to those advanced applications/techs/skills that we call "advanced CoA lvl 1&2", "hardening lvl 2&3" or "barrier-/penetration haki" there is another thing within the CoA category at which characters can be advanced users of.
And this one is imo not part of the community's common knowledge and it is the thing I mainly want to talk about in this thread:
The advanced usage of the haki flow itself.
Let's just cut it short and dive right into it.
1.2 Enma
1.3 Roger vs WB
1.4 A little powerscale
1.5 Conclusive thoughts
2 Additional thoughts: Roger's and WB's advCoAlvl2
_________________________________________________________________________
This thing is a little longer than usual threads, but if you got the time, give it a try, it's definitely worth it :D
If you comment on it and I don't answer shortly afterwards, don't be mad at me, I'm pretty busy right now. I really just wanted to drop this thing- finally.
I you want to shorten the read, 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 would be the most important parts.
List of contents
1. Main thread
1.1 Introduction
1.2 Enma
1.3 Roger vs WB
1.4 A little powerscale
1.5 Conclusive thoughts
2. Additional thoughts: Roger's and WB's advCoAlvl2
1 Main thread
1.1 Introduction
We all know the term „advanced CoA“. It's going around as a known concept since Udon, where Hyo taught us something about the advanced applications of CoA.
The thing is, next to those advanced applications/techs/skills that we call "advanced CoA lvl 1&2", "hardening lvl 2&3" or "barrier-/penetration haki" there is another thing within the CoA category at which characters can be advanced users of.
And this one is imo not part of the community's common knowledge and it is the thing I mainly want to talk about in this thread:
The advanced usage of the haki flow itself.
Let's just cut it short and dive right into it.
1.2 Enma
Let's take a look at the Enma scene.
Enma obviously sucked off a whole lot of his haki there, that much is clear. It went as far as draining Zoro's right arm afterall.
But what's really interesting here? After doing so, Enma was surrounded by a lot of a steam like substance and multiple of those black haki tendrils were covering the sword aswell.
Obviously all of this is Zoro's haki, but what's the difference between those two applications?
Those blackened tendrils seemingly stayed attached to the sword for a little longer (in the next panel they are gone aswell) while the steam like haki is just flowing away into the atmosphere. First note for now, I will talk about it more in the next part.
Anyway, all of that showed us that it's possible for characters to release a shit ton of haki at once. Obviously Zoro had no control of it yet and therefore did it involuntarily.
But let's assume Zoro would have control over it and therefore wouldn't enter that drawback territory. What would happen is, that he could, at will, let a great amount of haki, flow onto his sword, maybe less than in the Enma scene, but still a lot more
But what's really interesting here? After doing so, Enma was surrounded by a lot of a steam like substance and multiple of those black haki tendrils were covering the sword aswell.
Obviously all of this is Zoro's haki, but what's the difference between those two applications?
Those blackened tendrils seemingly stayed attached to the sword for a little longer (in the next panel they are gone aswell) while the steam like haki is just flowing away into the atmosphere. First note for now, I will talk about it more in the next part.
Anyway, all of that showed us that it's possible for characters to release a shit ton of haki at once. Obviously Zoro had no control of it yet and therefore did it involuntarily.
But let's assume Zoro would have control over it and therefore wouldn't enter that drawback territory. What would happen is, that he could, at will, let a great amount of haki, flow onto his sword, maybe less than in the Enma scene, but still a lot more
When I saw those Enma scenes I already knew where this was going. But I wasn't too sure about how all of this will exactly look like and play out.
But then the flashback happened and we saw the following scene:
That cleared it up for me.
First of all, it's very interesting that when both were using their haki, the whole amount of their used haki was completely attached to their blades and I mean all of it.
Not even the handle of their weapons was still covered.
We have never seen that before. Every other time the forearm and/or the handle was still covered in haki aswell.
And we also got those huge blackened haki tendrils, which stayed attached to their weapons even during their swings. Nowhere is that steam like haki we have seen during the Enma scene, that simply flew off the weapon.
This paints a clear picture for me:
Granted that those guys are Primebeard and Roger in action, this is probably the most efficient usage of the haki flow.
And as seen from the size of those tendrils, those guys put in a freaking huge amount of haki into those swings. And consequently the impact is shaking the island and is pretty much more powerful than anything we have seen before, besides those emperor CoC clashes.
What I take from this is:
a) With the size of the tendrils Oda will visualize the amount of haki that's used (good job, sherlock)
b) At hand of the parts that are still covered besides the actual impact area (weapon/hand) and the ratio between blackened tendrils and the steam like haki, we will recognize the user's grade of mastery over it. Means that every bit of haki used on parts other than the release point, is probaby wasted within the actual attack.
But then the flashback happened and we saw the following scene:
First of all, it's very interesting that when both were using their haki, the whole amount of their used haki was completely attached to their blades and I mean all of it.
Not even the handle of their weapons was still covered.
We have never seen that before. Every other time the forearm and/or the handle was still covered in haki aswell.
And we also got those huge blackened haki tendrils, which stayed attached to their weapons even during their swings. Nowhere is that steam like haki we have seen during the Enma scene, that simply flew off the weapon.
This paints a clear picture for me:
Granted that those guys are Primebeard and Roger in action, this is probably the most efficient usage of the haki flow.
And as seen from the size of those tendrils, those guys put in a freaking huge amount of haki into those swings. And consequently the impact is shaking the island and is pretty much more powerful than anything we have seen before, besides those emperor CoC clashes.
What I take from this is:
a) With the size of the tendrils Oda will visualize the amount of haki that's used (good job, sherlock)
b) At hand of the parts that are still covered besides the actual impact area (weapon/hand) and the ratio between blackened tendrils and the steam like haki, we will recognize the user's grade of mastery over it. Means that every bit of haki used on parts other than the release point, is probaby wasted within the actual attack.
But before anyone goes crazy, cause this thread could imply that Zoro will bump out Prime Roger CoA attacks after his training- Nah, imo there's still a big difference in their actual haki strength/their spirit, which is still the source for all of that.
Additionally I really don't think that Zoro will have it fully mastered already. Remember, when they did it, the handle wasn't covered anymore, no steam like haki was seen and such. Things that still could be present during Zoro's all out haki usage. Still I'm positive that Zoro will have moves where a lot of haki will be concentrated upon his sword (much bigger tendrils), which will give him much more attack power.
A rough powerscale could look like this:
Roger: haki strength (10) x amount of haki used (100 out of max.100) = 1000AP
Zoro: haki strength (6-7) x amount of haki used (70 out of max.100) = 420- 490 AP
Just for getting the point across, don't crucify me if you don't agree with those numbers. But obviously this way it can be a massive PU for him, which it will obviously be (that cliff scene) while it does not make him far too overpowered and later on it can still be further developed.
All this, in respective to the fact that Zoro already showed those small tendrils in DR, might also explain his already existing exceptional attack power, without the need to put him at G3 lvl of physical strength.
He's basically just able to put more haki into his moves than others, which fits his confirmed CoA spec.
And in general, the power of those fully haki boosted moves will be incredible... if WB vs Roger wasn't already enough to convince you.
A novice user in Luffy would have already been able to deflect O-Lin's slap (going by Hyo's words), something he would otherwise probably need G3 or even G4 for.
And that's the same Luffy who only gathers a comparatively small amount of haki around his hands.
Those higher end moves should be insanely more powerful than this, while even those basic moves, already outperform physical strength by a lot.
*Base strength+hardening <<< Gear3 ~ base strength +barrier move*
It explains how Roger could sent a stat beast like Oden half across an island with a one handed swing, even though Roger is not like "20times" more physically powerful than Oden.
Additionally I think that this will be a common concept within top tier fights. It would explain how Mihawk can pull out those ridiculously powerful air slashes at one time, while at the other time, he spares with a Commander lvl guy on eye level. The range in power between high end CoA usage and basic hardening is just this large.
With that, guys like Mihawk and Shanks for example, who still got more normal human like bodies, while one even lacks an arm, do not need to have greater physical strength than monsters like Jozu or the transformed calamities, in order to beat them in power. Makes a lot more sense to me.
And in general someone like Zoro suddenly does not need 10times his physical strength to reach such stages of attack power aswell.
What should be noticed tho is, that there's probably a cap to how much you can pull out at once. I don't think that someone can go into that drawback area, without a tool like Enma. And obviously the more haki you use, the more it will drain your haki tank (similiar to G4).
I'm not too sure on this one, but I think it might be that those fully powered up moves (huge tendrils) might be a thing only for (big) named attacks, while a watered down version of it might be the "go to"- battle mode, when guys are crossing swords, blocking things with barriers and such. Wait and see, I guess.
Additionally I really don't think that Zoro will have it fully mastered already. Remember, when they did it, the handle wasn't covered anymore, no steam like haki was seen and such. Things that still could be present during Zoro's all out haki usage. Still I'm positive that Zoro will have moves where a lot of haki will be concentrated upon his sword (much bigger tendrils), which will give him much more attack power.
A rough powerscale could look like this:
Roger: haki strength (10) x amount of haki used (100 out of max.100) = 1000AP
Zoro: haki strength (6-7) x amount of haki used (70 out of max.100) = 420- 490 AP
Just for getting the point across, don't crucify me if you don't agree with those numbers. But obviously this way it can be a massive PU for him, which it will obviously be (that cliff scene) while it does not make him far too overpowered and later on it can still be further developed.
All this, in respective to the fact that Zoro already showed those small tendrils in DR, might also explain his already existing exceptional attack power, without the need to put him at G3 lvl of physical strength.
He's basically just able to put more haki into his moves than others, which fits his confirmed CoA spec.
And in general, the power of those fully haki boosted moves will be incredible... if WB vs Roger wasn't already enough to convince you.
A novice user in Luffy would have already been able to deflect O-Lin's slap (going by Hyo's words), something he would otherwise probably need G3 or even G4 for.
And that's the same Luffy who only gathers a comparatively small amount of haki around his hands.
Those higher end moves should be insanely more powerful than this, while even those basic moves, already outperform physical strength by a lot.
*Base strength+hardening <<< Gear3 ~ base strength +barrier move*
It explains how Roger could sent a stat beast like Oden half across an island with a one handed swing, even though Roger is not like "20times" more physically powerful than Oden.
Additionally I think that this will be a common concept within top tier fights. It would explain how Mihawk can pull out those ridiculously powerful air slashes at one time, while at the other time, he spares with a Commander lvl guy on eye level. The range in power between high end CoA usage and basic hardening is just this large.
With that, guys like Mihawk and Shanks for example, who still got more normal human like bodies, while one even lacks an arm, do not need to have greater physical strength than monsters like Jozu or the transformed calamities, in order to beat them in power. Makes a lot more sense to me.
And in general someone like Zoro suddenly does not need 10times his physical strength to reach such stages of attack power aswell.
What should be noticed tho is, that there's probably a cap to how much you can pull out at once. I don't think that someone can go into that drawback area, without a tool like Enma. And obviously the more haki you use, the more it will drain your haki tank (similiar to G4).
I'm not too sure on this one, but I think it might be that those fully powered up moves (huge tendrils) might be a thing only for (big) named attacks, while a watered down version of it might be the "go to"- battle mode, when guys are crossing swords, blocking things with barriers and such. Wait and see, I guess.
Taking all of this in perspective makes it clear that solely using the term "advanced CoA user" wouldn't really do the trick anymore.
If Prime Roger uses the penetration tech and destroys a city, while Luffy destroys a tree, while both using the same move, does that label really do Roger justice? No, definitely not.
I think we need to include a term, that describes that different quantities of haki are used. Perhaps some simple thing like "small-/med-/big tendril"-haki?
I dunno, what do you think?
And in general feel free to tell me your thoughts about all this.
That's it for the main thread, I will put some additional, thread-related thoughts of mine into the spoiler tag below.
If Prime Roger uses the penetration tech and destroys a city, while Luffy destroys a tree, while both using the same move, does that label really do Roger justice? No, definitely not.
I think we need to include a term, that describes that different quantities of haki are used. Perhaps some simple thing like "small-/med-/big tendril"-haki?
I dunno, what do you think?
And in general feel free to tell me your thoughts about all this.
That's it for the main thread, I will put some additional, thread-related thoughts of mine into the spoiler tag below.
2 Additional thoughts: Roger's and WB's advCoAlvl2
What's additonally special in the scene where Roger and Whitebeard clashed, was that they were using advanced CoA lvl 2 (penetration haki) during it.
You can see that there is a recognizable space gap inbetween the impact and their swords. This space is created by the durability ignoring/bypassing quirk of advanced CoA lvl 2. The same is present within the scene where Luffy is „punching“ the tree. Inbetween the impact and Luffy's hand is that gap aswell.
This does not happen when someone is using adv CoA lvl 1 (barrier haki), cause then the attack is directly released from the user's hand. *insert any barrier haki scene*
Means that if not for advCoA lvl2, their swords would direclty collide.
Narratively it makes a lot of sense to do it that way, cause this way Oda already told us within just one scene, that those two are able to use the most superior application of armament (advCoAlvl2) and that they also have fully mastered their haki flow.
All this while he spoiled/teased the concept's visuals and its max performance (assuming so, cause those are freakin Roger and Primebeard afterall).
→ He bascially killed two birds with one stone, with the least amount of panel time (classical Oda move)
Those attacks are pretty much both of the skills combined, which Luffy and Zoro each just learned:
CoA lvl 2 (Luffy) + mastery over the haki flow (Zoro). Just a whole lot stronger.
Means that if not for advCoA lvl2, their swords would direclty collide.
Narratively it makes a lot of sense to do it that way, cause this way Oda already told us within just one scene, that those two are able to use the most superior application of armament (advCoAlvl2) and that they also have fully mastered their haki flow.
All this while he spoiled/teased the concept's visuals and its max performance (assuming so, cause those are freakin Roger and Primebeard afterall).
→ He bascially killed two birds with one stone, with the least amount of panel time (classical Oda move)
Those attacks are pretty much both of the skills combined, which Luffy and Zoro each just learned:
CoA lvl 2 (Luffy) + mastery over the haki flow (Zoro). Just a whole lot stronger.
With some of you I talked atleast a little, so I hope it's okay for you that I tagged you. If you aren't into reading this thing or don't want to be tagged anymore, just tell me, it's totally okay with me.
@Veku @Bogard @Sentinel @playa4321 @Cinera
@uyuu I don't know if you still remember it, but you were saying, that you wanted to see it, when I create this thread. So here it is.. with one hell of a delay tho :D
@Veku @Bogard @Sentinel @playa4321 @Cinera
@uyuu I don't know if you still remember it, but you were saying, that you wanted to see it, when I create this thread. So here it is.. with one hell of a delay tho :D
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