Controversial Are you on team Yamato is a daughter.

[Momonosuke]

When you identify so much as something it is. Oden has become the "gender" of Yamato. Take a little look at the trans and LGBTQ+ structure and you will understand that gender is actually a pretty vast concept. Man and Woman are just two of a LOT of gender around the gender spectrum and identities.

Yamato does not only refer to them as Oden so in that way, they are gender fluid. (it actually took me a while to realize that)



Sadly, most school have a pretty poor education system when we talk about scientific and sociological issue concerning gender and sex.

There are only 2 genders which are determined by chromosomes prior to birth.

Most of the lgbtqrzfk73@%+ community lives in their own reality and have severe mental health issues.

I don't care who someone wants to be with, how they want to dress or even if they want to mutilate their own bodies to look more like the opposite gender. I do however have an issue with lying about it, it doesn't matter how many people call a banana a peach, how often they shout it at the top of their lungs, or what kind of nonsensical excuse they make for doing so. A banana is still a banana and a peach is still a peach and there's absolutely no reason to lie about it.

 

[York]

The bath scene settled it for me

 

[Logiko]

Would you really want Yamato to live the life of a man she never once knew? People don’t decide who they wanna be by ripping out all the pages in a book.

There is no problem with that. Who do it hurt ? Why wouldn't they have the right to live the way they want ?

She had little to no character development whatsoever.

They had. Its just in the subtext like a lot of thing in One Piece, its subtle.

I know I said I didn’t care about it that much but your responses are getting on my nerves because it seems like you actually want her character to do the very thing most people have an issue with

The reason I'm getting on your nerves is that I'm accepting Yamato the way they are and this makes you nervous because you don't.

She can’t become the kind of person she herself may want to be.

They are already that.

Yamato is trying to be someone else, taking on the identity of a dead man.

Not anymore. They identifies as Oden but made they make their own choices.

And even if it wasn't the case, there is no problem with that if that's what make them happy.

Kiku is also a cross dresser just more fem

Kiku is a trans woman.

There are only 2 genders which are determined by chromosomes prior to birth.

Read some science.

lgbtqrzfk73@%+

I think your are completely unbiased on the subject. (> this was Irony, Btw)

I do however have an issue with lying about it,

If you don't care about the subject, why do you care about that ? It's quite paradoxal don't you think ?

Also, I don't think you will often see trans people lying about their identity as this alt right moral panic is often the reason why they are killed and/or raped.

The bath scene settled it for me

Me too.. but the fact that they call themself Yamato sometimes (their woman identities) makes me think that they are more likely gender fluid rather than Trans.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

Oda likes to add historical figures when introducing his character. Yamato is based on yamato takeru who was known to genderbend as woman .

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Yamato-Takeru

Yamato more or less inspired herself as oden not as another sex or claim she is a man unlike kiku when she admit she is woman at heart.

I would say yamato is woman who likes to genderbend as oden but not as a man.

 

[Momonosuke]

Kiku is a trans woman.

I think your are completely unbiased on the subject. (> this was Irony, Btw)

If you don't care about the subject, why do you care about that ? It's quite paradoxal don't you think ?

Also, I don't think you will often see trans people lying about their identity as this alt right moral panic is often the reason why they are killed and/or raped.

Kiku is a man that dresses like a woman and has feminine features even if you accept that trans means transitioning from 1 gender to the other (which is impossible because you will alwaysbe the gender you were born as) there is nothing to suggest that this character has undergone any of the body mutilation that entails

There is nothing paradoxical about it, everyone is free to live as they want i dont care about anyones sexual preferences as long all parties are of the appropriate age and mental capacity to consent and do so. That doesn't mean I have to play along when they lie about who they are like you do.

The only instance of a tranny getting killed that I know of personally was because he lied about being a woman and deceived someone who would never go to bed with a man even though the truth was sure to come out, I'm not condoning the guy who killed the other guy but if the dead guy had been honest about what gender he really was it never would have happened.

I almost forgot to point out how that wasn't irony, it's called sarcasm and they're not the same genius.

 

[thedarkdragon11]

Does this really matter? Yamato isn't even a major character at this point...

 

[Momonosuke]

Does this really matter? Yamato isn't even a major character at this point...

Not even a little bit, but it can be fun to annoy the people who don't know the difference between men and women

 

[Logiko]

Kiku is a man that dresses like a woman and has feminine features even if you accept that trans means transitioning from 1 gender to the other (which is impossible because you will alwaysbe the gender you were born as) there is nothing to suggest that this character has undergone any of the body mutilation that entails

1. Transitionning to one gender to another is impossible. Transitionning means that you will do the "necessry" things for you to bring your body and mind where it fits the most with the gender you are identifiying with.

2. Being trans doesn't mean transitionning, it means that you are identifying toward another gender that we gave you at birth

3. Kiku is a transwoman

4. Transitionning and the process of having surgeries is not "body mutilation" , this rethoric is a moral panic of the transphobes.

There is nothing paradoxical about it, everyone is free to live as they want i dont care about anyones sexual preferences as long all parties are of the appropriate age and mental capacity to consent and do so.

Translated: "Everyone is free unless I have a say about this."

The only instance of a tranny getting killed that I know of personally was because he lied about being a woman and deceived someone who would never go to bed with a man even though the truth was sure to come out

1. She didn't lied, It is a women, maybe simply with a penis.
2. I really don't believe this story at all as - like I said - this is one of the first reason why Trans people are killed.. They knows that danger. As there are transphobe everywhere (I'm talking to one for example). Trans people will almost always tell you that they are trans.

I'm not condoning the guy who killed the other guy but if the dead guy had been honest about what gender he really was it never would have happened.

There is no good reason to kill, the only responsible - if that really did happen - is the transphobe who killed him.
You are victim shaming here.. but looking at your retrograd discourse, this is not surprising.

Not even a little bit, but it can be fun to annoy the people who don't know the difference between men and women

You are not annoying anyone mate, you are just prepping yourself to get banned.

@TheAncientCenturion @Natalija

I'm sorry, but people are in danger because of comments like those.

I'm not condoning the guy who killed the other guy but if the dead guy had been honest about what gender he really was it never would have happened.

The only instance of a tranny getting killed that I know of personally was because he lied about being a woman

Transphobia shouldn't be acceptable anywhere. Not even on WorstGen.

Please, Don't let that flourish.

 

[Herrera95]

You are not born with a gender. Gender is a social construction.
We are not talking about sex characteristics here. But GENDER.

You born with a gender. You are either Male or Female. And there are the rare exceptions of nature but at least 98% of humans are like that.
And even if you accept that gender is social construction which I don't Yamato is not the case.

It is, Yamato both identify as Oden and also identify as themself "Yamato". They are coming and going. They are therefore genderfluid.

This is not gender fluid this is mental illness.
"Delusion of grandeur refers to a person's false belief that they are someone other than who they truly are — typically someone powerful or important."

That's what happens when we identify as a gender : we are "copying" the gender norms of a specific gender. In that case its a man and Oden more specifically. Yamato is just pushing the identification a bit farther to relate to someone they love.

Huge stretch. As I just said above she has a illness. She isn't trying to be a man she is trying to be Oden only. People who try to change genders are living their lifes not somebody's else.

This is excactly what identification is.

No it is not.

 

[ShiShiShi]

There is no problem with that. Who do it hurt ? Why wouldn't they have the right to live the way they want ?



She had. Its just in the subtext like a lot of thing in One Piece, its subtle.



The problem I'm getting on you nerve is that I'm accepting Yamato the way they are and this makes you nervous because you don't.



They are already that.



Not anymore. They identifies as Oden but made they make their own choices.

And even if it wasn't the case, there is no problem with that if that's what make them happy.



Kiku is a trans woman.



Read some science.



I think your are completely unbiased on the subject. (> this was Irony, Btw)


If you don't care about the subject, why do you care about that ? It's quite paradoxal don't you think ?

Also, I don't think you will often see trans people lying about their identity as this alt right moral panic is often the reason why they are killed and/or raped.



Me too.. but the fact that they call themself Yamato sometimes (their woman identities) makes me think that they are more likely gender fluid rather than Trans.

*Sigh*

I can’t understand why you’re unable to see it. It feels like you’re implying that I’m being transphobic or of the sorts because I see something wrong with how her character is written. It seems to me that Oda purposefully wrote her as a character who can’t see herself and can only see the man who she’s trying to be. Is her character a lesson in itself?

Do I have to say it? It’s unhealthy behavior. It’d be different if she had her own identity and made her own decisions but she doesn’t. The decisions she made didn’t change how she perceives herself so that’s why I’m saying she seemed to act the same at the end of Wano. If such changes are so subtle then are there really any at all?

She’s trying to become Kozuki Oden, who was a man. Ergo, she’s trying to be like him in that sense as well. The problem with this is that she’s not acting like Yamato. Sure, that is her name and she’s acknowledged it many times before but once she says that she’s Kozuki Oden that’s when it throws it off course. Seriously?! Is it a split personality? Does she have two personalities??

If you ask me, there’s probably a deeper meaning behind it that Oda created, being that she was imprisoned for most of her life by her own father and treated horribly. Seeing Oden shortly before his death gave her admiration for him, but she let that admiration control her so now she’s taken his mold so to speak. It’s kind of sad when you think about it.

I’d also like to add that her being “Oden” kept her from traveling out to sea with Luffy so that she could explore Oden’s homeland and blah blah blah. I’m pretty sure this was just a lame excuse that Oda made to lock her character away until she’s needed again for the story but I couldn’t help but cringe when it happened.

Yamato should’ve been introduced earlier on in Wano but a lot of that time was spent focusing on Luffy in Udon Prison training to get stronger.

She hardly contributed anything to the Onigashima raid and was pretty much used for fan service moments when it was found suitable. Yamato and Carrot both suffered from the writing, so much so that it seems like they were either intentionally being written off in an attempt to forget about them or Oda just introduced them at the wrong time.

Carrot suffered mostly from this, having no proper sendoff like Vivi had and no further mention after Wano. Heck, she didn’t even get mentioned by the Straw Hats for most of the arc. She had her (albeit failed) fight with Perospero, and she became the ruler of Zou or whatever.

Yay… a forced change that was obviously given with reluctant acceptance by Carrot with her “Pedro…” response.

That’s it. Those were her final words.

I don’t care what you say about them. Oda fumbled. The only way he could redeem himself in this regard is if he revisits these characters and gives them proper focus and time to shine. Creating characters solely for the plot that people may get attached to, only to get rid of them afterward just sets up inevitable disappointment.

This is such a pointless conversation and I can’t believe you’re so adamant about it. Yamato’s not even a relevant character anymore. The only thing I can hope for with her character is that Oda revisits it in the future and gives her and Carrot proper character development.

Physical strength alone is NOT character development, okay?

 

[Formerly Seth]

 

[ShiShiShi]

Would you like to share your thoughts?

 

[Momonosuke]

1. Transitionning to one gender to another is impossible. Transitionning means that you will do the "necessry" things for you to bring your body and mind where it fits the most with the gender you are identifiying with.

2. Being trans doesn't mean transitionning, it means that you are identifying toward another gender that we gave you at birth

3. Kiku is a transwoman

4. Transitionning and the process of having surgeries is not "body mutilation" , this rethoric is a moral panic of the transphobes.



Translated: "Everyone is free unless I have a say about this."



1. She didn't lied, It is a women, maybe simply with a penis.
2. I really don't believe this story at all as - like I said - this is one of the first reason why Trans people are killed.. They knows that danger. As there are transphobe everywhere (I'm talking to one for example). Trans people will almost always tell you that they are trans.



There is no good reason to kill, the only responsible - if that really did happen - is the transphobe who killed him.
You are victim shaming here.. but looking at your retrograd discourse, this is not surprising.


You are not annoying anyone mate, you are just prepping yourself to get banned.

@TheAncientCenturion @Natalija

I'm sorry, but people are in danger because of comments like those.





Transphobia shouldn't be acceptable anywhere. Not even on WorstGen.

Please, Don't let that flourish.

Nothing about transitioning is "necessary"

No what I said is everyone is free to live as they want but lying is still bad.

There is no such thing as a woman with a penis you're obviously delusional.

He could have been scared of trans, or he could have acted out of rage from being deceived and about having given consent under false pretenses. It's also possible that he was innocent, he was found to be innocent by the US government but was still charged by the Phillipines it was a whole international incident but as I've already said I don't condone killing in that situation.

Absolutely nobody is in any "DANGER" whatsoever because you don't like the truth.

 

[Formerly Seth]

Would you like to share your thoughts?

No

 

[ShiShiShi]

No

I wish I could be as fortunate.

 

[Formerly Seth]

I wish I could be as fortunate.

Don't reply and enjoy the show. Works fine for me.

 

[Logiko]

You born with a gender. You are either Male or Female. And there are the rare exceptions of nature but at least 98% of humans are like that.
And even if you accept that gender is social construction which I don't Yamato is not the case.

And even if you accept that gender is social construction

Technically that's a bit more complicated than that. First, gender is a social construction (weither you are accepting it or not), the reason why this social construction as an impact on people (gender disphoria) is yet unknown and researched.

This is not gender fluid this is mental illness.
"Delusion of grandeur refers to a person's false belief that they are someone other than who they truly are — typically someone powerful or important."

1.Yamato is not mentally ill, lets stop with the psychophobia or this will get hitted real fast
2. Yamato knows who they are, they are just choosing to identify as Oden. So its completely different that "delusion of grandeur"

Huge stretch. As I just said above she has a illness.

And you were wrong.

She isn't trying to be a man she is trying to be Oden only. People who try to change genders are living their lifes not somebody's else.

Identifying as Oden or identifying as a man is pretty much the same things gender is a social construction that is linked to certains traits of expectation around gender, the traits of Oden are those of a man, in fact they are those of the "man among the men" in short, gender traits identified as those of men but to a greater degree

So by identifying as Oden, what Yamato identify as is the man among the men. In short : a man.

No it is not.

Yes it is.

I can’t understand why you’re unable to see it. It feels like you’re implying that I’m being transphobic

Not in your case no. Not yet. I just see someone who has an hard time understanding the cahracter and accepting the way they act.

It’s unhealthy behavior. It’d be different if she had her own identity and made her own decisions but she doesn’t.

Like I explained to the other guy. When Yamato is saying "I'm Oden" it means that she identifying to what Oden REPRENSENT.

That's why when Luffy say that, Yamato replies by:

"Okay, you are more Oden than me".

To understand what I describe here, you need to understand how Yamato is constructed in term of storytelling:

Yamato was a young girl who was misstreated by her father all her life. One day she came across the execution of Oden. That's something that really moved her to a great degree. The reason for that is that during this execution, Oden represented everything Yamato was inspiring to:

- Courage in front of opposition
- Fearless in front of death
- Badassery (the man among the man) > Oden was represented like a Titan: Atlas, lifting the world on his shoulders.
- Complete freedom despite being at death door and enchained.

Those are the quality Yamato is now identifying to, and in their identification, those notion are related to the man among the men: Oden. That's why Yamato decides sometimes to become Oden and sometimes, to be Yamato.

Yamato has their own identity, the proof is : they didn't make the choice of Oden to sail at sea (the wrong choice). Instead, Yamato choosed to stay on the island, understanding that freedom can be achieve in a various different ways and that they would be more usefull helping Momo protect the island.

If you ask me, there’s probably a deeper meaning behind it that Oda created

I just gave you that meaning yes. It's subtle, but with a bit of analysis its there.

I’d also like to add that her being “Oden” kept her from traveling out to sea with Luffy so that she could explore Oden’s homeland and blah blah blah. I’m pretty sure this was just a lame excuse that Oda made to lock her character away until she’s needed again for the story but I couldn’t help but cringe when it happened.

Actually that's just the excuse Yamato gave to Momo. In reality, just like I tell you, the real choice of Oden would be to go out at sea not to stay on land. Here, Yamato - just like Momo by choosing not to open the border - acted with their own instinct and will, they made their own choice.

Yamato and Carrot both suffered from the writing

Not Yamato no. Carrot on the other hand, maybe. But that's another story, for more on that subject I suggest you go check my posts on Carrot on the current Nakama thread.

I don’t care what you say about them. Oda fumbled

Not with Yamato no. Yamato was indeed introduced strangely, but their story is coherent and interesting.

Physical strength alone is NOT character development, okay?

I know that full well.

I can’t believe you’re so adamant about it

Because I look at the story first and not my personnal preferences.

Nothing about transitioning is "necessary"

In most cases, it is. Transitionning doesn't always means a physical transformation, sometimes its just a name change.

No what I said is everyone is free to live as they want but lying is still bad.

I really doubt your story, sorry. You knowing a trans while calling them "t ranny" i'm sorry but.. something is not right here.

He could have been scared of trans

Which is transphobic

r he could have acted out of rage from being deceived

Which is transphobic and sociopathic

It's also possible that he was innocent, he was found to be innocent by the US government but was still charged by the Phillipines

You tell me you know this case then you tell me that you are not sure if they did it or not ?

Absolutely nobody is in any "DANGER" whatsoever because you don't like the truth.

Actually yes. Putting transphobic comment on internet is actually helping normalizing transphobia and thus puts trans people in direct danger

Don't reply and enjoy the show. Works fine for me.

 

[Momonosuke]

Technically that's a bit more complicated than that. First, gender is a social construction (weither you are accepting it or not), the reason why this social construction as an impact on people (gender disphoria) is yet unknown and researched.



1.Yamato is not mentally ill, lets stop with the psychophobia or this will get hitted real fast
2. Yamato knows who they are, they are just choosing to identify as Oden. So its completely different that "delusion of grandeur"



And you were wrong.



Identifying as Oden or identifying as a man is pretty much the same things gender is a social construction that is linked to certains traits of expectation around gender, the traits of Oden are those of a man, in fact they are those of the "man among the men" in short, gender traits identified as those of men but to a greater degree

So by identifying as Oden, what Yamato identify as is the man among the men. In short : a man.



Yes it is.



Not in your case no. Not yet. I just see someone who has an hard time understanding the cahracter and accepting the way they act.


Like I explained to the other guy. When Yamato is saying "I'm Oden" it means that she identifying to what Oden REPRENSENT.

That's why when Luffy say that, Yamato replies by:

"Okay, you are more Oden than me".

To understand what I describe here, you need to understand how Yamato is constructed in term of storytelling:

Yamato was a young girl who was misstreated by her father all her life. One day she came across the execution of Oden. That's something that really moved her to a great degree. The reason for that is that during this execution, Oden represented everything Yamato was inspiring to:

- Courage in front of opposition
- Fearless in front of death
- Badassery (the man among the man) > Oden was represented like a Titan: Atlas, lifting the world on his shoulders.
- Complete freedom despite being at death door and enchained.

Those are the quality Yamato is now identifying to, and in their identification, those notion are related to the man among the men: Oden. That's why Yamato decides sometimes to become Oden and sometimes, to be Yamato.

Yamato has their own identity, the proof is : they didn't make the choice of Oden to sail at sea (the wrong choice). Instead, Yamato choosed to stay on the island, understanding that freedom can be achieve in a various different ways and that they would be more usefull helping Momo protect the island.


I just gave you that meaning yes. It's subtle, but with a bit of analysis its there.



Actually that's just the excuse Yamato gave to Momo. In reality, just like I tell you, the real choice of Oden would be to go out at sea not to stay on land. Here, Yamato - just like Momo by choosing not to open the border - acted with their own instinct and will, they made their own choice.



Not Yamato no. Carrot on the other hand, maybe. But that's another story, for more on that subject I suggest you go check my posts on Carrot on the current Nakama thread.



Not with Yamato no. Yamato was indeed introduced strangely, but their story is coherent and interesting.



I know that full well.



Because I look at the story first and not my personnal preferences.



In most cases, it is. Transitionning doesn't always means a physical transformation, sometimes its just a name change.



I really doubt your story, sorry. You knowing a trans while calling them "t ranny" i'm sorry but.. something is not right here.



Which is transphobic



Which is transphobic and sociopathic



You tell me you know this case then you tell me that you are not sure if they did it or not ?



Actually yes. Putting transphobic comment on internet is actually helping normalizing transphobia and thus puts trans people in direct danger

No even a name change isn't in any way necessary.

No I didn't know the victim, I knew the one who was accused of murder before it happened. Yet like I said he was found innocent by the US government and charged by the Philippines then later pardoned, it's not like I was there or have seen him since or had a chance to ask what actually happened. He claimed innocence and that he left after finding out it was a man that lured him to the hotel while pretending to be a woman while the male victim was still alive and unharmed but was later found strangled to death.

No, a comment on the internet doesn't put anyone in danger you delusional waste of resources. Speaking the truth about gender doesn't promote any type of phobia, it promotes honesty and understanding.

 

[Logiko]

No even a name change isn't in any way necessary

When you have gender disphoria, you will most likely look for a transition, that's the point.

No I didn't know the victim, I knew the one who was accused of murder before it happened. Yet like I said he was found innocent by the US government and charged by the Philippines then later pardoned, it's not like I was there or have seen him since or had a chance to ask what actually happened

So first you tell me he killed someone then .. you tell me you are not sure..

No, a comment on the internet doesn't put anyone in danger you delusional waste of resources. Speaking the truth about gender doesn't promote any type of phobia, it promotes honesty and understanding.

Yes they, do. But if you don't understand the process of oppression and harrassment you will have hard time understanding why a simple comment can be destructive.

You don't promote any truth here. Just a retrograde ideology that deny science and reality.

 

[Momonosuke]

When you have gender disphoria, you will most likely look for a transition, that's the point.



So first you tell me he killed someone then .. you tell me you are not sure..


Yes they, do. But if you don't understand the process of oppression and harrassment you will have hard time understanding why a simple comment can be destructive.

You don't promote any truth here. Just a retrograde ideology that deny science and reality.

That doesn't make a name change or any other aspect of translation necessary, it would however make therapy a good idea. It's best to confront mental health issues in order to overcome them.

I said someone was killed and I know the person who was accused of doing it, it's quite simple for anyone with even relatively common sense which you obviously lack.

Nice try but we all know who here is denying reality mr "maybe she was a woman with a penis"